Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy what's another way to say you must obey?

Ellipses talked about doing homework and starting the habit in kindergarten. Last night, we were reading Junie B. Jones Cheater Pants.

Junie B. didn't have her homework done and her father wouldn't let her stay up Sunday night to do it. I stopped in the story and told DD that her parents should have helped Junie B by making sure her homework was done before she did all the fun stuff all weekend. And we talked about things she has to do like piano practice.

We give reasons, simple reasons why she has to obey. Like today, she was about 50 yards away on the beach playing with another girl. Suddenly she and the girl start running to the water. I just happened to be watching and told DH who was reading. He got up and went to her. The waves were small and she is a decent swimmer now but this is the ocean and she has to know that she cannot go into the water without telling us. We didn't go consequences but were strict giving her reasons -- her safety. That is how we handle it.

Now bad behavior like this morning, lying on the floor, whining wanting me to pick her up and then getting humpfy about watching TV. I turned Disney channel off and told her to get up and apologize to me for her behavior. No explanatins. She didn't need one. Bad behavior gets the 1,2,3.

Ren

I've had several conversations about natural consequences. It's something I've had issues with from time to time. Say, for example, DC doesn't want to brush his teeth. The natural consequence is that he develops cavities which require not so pleasant visit to the dentist which also costs the parents money. It's not a consequence the child will understand in the short term. My friend's 9yr old has had numerous cavities filled which is terrifying for him, yet after a few days, it wears off and he's back to not brushing his teeth. To me that's a natural consequence.

Now i've read it should all be about natural consequences. If you say, we aren't leaving for that playdate until your teeth are brushed, that is not a natural consequence. Now, it might be an agreed upon consequence w/ DC as in "Son, this is what happens when you don't get your chores done which includes brushing your teeth," but it's not a natural consequence, it's an imposed consequence. Is that the same as a punishment in the kid's eyes?

A friend related this to me from a a child psychologist she was talking to about consequences. You give Johnny a piece of gum. You tell Johnny not to blow bubbles b/c he will drop his gum in the dirt and he won't get another. Johnny doesn't listen, blows a bubble, drops his gum in the dirt. He asks for another piece. You say no, he understood the consequence of his action. What little Johnny really understands is that mommy doesn't want to share b/c he knows she has more gum in her purse. Of course, her 6yr old was being seen by the psych so this wouldn't hold for an older child.

I often revert to examples using DH's job. DH has 15 people under him. What would happnen if a few of them decided not to do their job when they are supposed to do it? (I let DS think up things that might happen.) I tell him it's the same w/ the family. If they don't empty the dishwasher in the AM, the dishes back up at lunch time. LUnch is delayed b/c we have to stop and unload the dishwasher so we can clear away the breakfast dishes blah blah blah. And some days, I wish I could just say "It's time to unload the dishwasher" and they just do it w/out discussion.

What do you think is gained from making a child apologize when they don't feel regret? Over the long run what do you see that teaching her about honesty?

DD isn't a sociopath. She feels regret when she understands that I am not pleased with her behavior. Generally kids feel that way when they disappoint their parents.

I remember a time, as a teenager, I said something ugly to my mother. Don't even remember what I said. But she slapped me. Only time it ever happened. I don't remember it hurting or anything. The only thing I remember is the look on my mother's face and how much I hurt her. That made me feel awful.

DD knows when she disapoints me with her behavior.

Honesty? I am not sure what you mean about that? Are you referring to the Junie B. story?

Honesty is an interesting lesson. She told me in the spring about her BFF lying. She was puzzled by it and DD is not beyond straying on occasion but I have good instincts when something doesn't sound right. She usually tries not to tell me something than risk lying.

Ren

The purpose of a apology is to express genuine feeling of regret and to take responsibility for the hurt you caused another person. To simply require a child to do that by rote ("say you're sorry) takes away from the bigger goal of helping them learn to identify and process their own feelings and learn to accept responsibility. Forcing "I'm sorry" is nothing more than teaching kids to impersonate genuine feelings of remorse and that faking can become a habit of lying that carries over into other situations. Tell then what they want to hear so they shut up.

Of course your daughter isn't a sociopath and of course she doesn't want to disappoint you. That's all the more reason to allow her processing time and to come to the decision to apologize rather than forcing it on her.

For all kids I would hope that their primary motivation for good behavior becomes about something other than disappointing mom. If not, that's a pretty weak foundation to enter the teenage years when kids may seek to differentiate by doing the opposite of what parents want.

We don't use exclusively natural consequences, but I do think it is possible and beneficial (for someone with more patience than I have) to use them exclusively. For me, the question is how you look at your family structure. If you imagine more of a workplace structure (with bosses & underlings), natural consequences are not for you.

Assuming that you want more of a communal relationship with your child, natural consequences are great, and they can include statements like, "I feel embarrassed to be seen in public with someone who has not brushed his or her teeth and hair and put clean clothes on--so I don't want to go to the park with you until you've done that." When necessary, I tell DD, "I don't want to be around someone who hits me or is disrespectful," and I do refuse to be around her when she acts like that. I consider that to be a very natural consequence, and it is one that she feels keenly.



So I've never told DD to apologize (though I have asked her if she wants to when she has hurt someone other than me), but somehow she's started apologizing when she clearly doesn't mean it. I have told her several times that I don't want her to say anything that she doesn't mean, but it hasn't helped. I am pretty tired of having "I'M SORRY" yelled in my face. I wonder if you've got suggestions for eliminating this issue when it is not caused by forced apologies?

But what if DC counters with - how does him not brushing his teeth affect anyone else but himself? Most people would not know whether or not he brushed his teeth. Usually for my DS (the kid I mentioned w/ cavities is luckily, not mine) visits to the dentist generally gets him back in line. He will huff and puff on his way to the bathroom but he does do it.

I've definitely told DS that I don't want to be around someone w/ his behavior nor would i take him out in the mood he's in, etc and give him time to refocus and consider his behavior.

generally if I tell DS what the natural consequences are for ex: not getting dressed, I don't want to go out w/ someone w/ holes in their pants etc he does what needs to get done. My issue w/ consequences is that sometimes (and this is not in my family) is that the consequence is one that everyone suffers. For ex: say DC1 refuses to get dressed on time so everyone misses the movie. I have a friend whose DC's conseqences negatively impacted his siblings outings (sports practices, etc). Then i find it hard to stick to natural consequences and imposed consequences come more into play. Luckily I don't have huge issues with my kids. Most of mine revolve around taking 40min to empty the dishwasher b/c of too much playing while it's getting done. IT's more an issue of time seeming endless.....yes mom we can play LEGOs for 4hrs, then play soccer for an hour, and go to the park, and do school for 3hrs, and read to me for 2hrs, and sleep for 9hrs, and watch 2 one-hour history channel shows, play in the bath for an hour, sit and have dinner for an hour, and watch Myth Busters before bed.


the tough thing about parenting is that someone will find something negative and positive in everything. It makes it hard to know exactly what to do. I read in a book that when the child hits and you say you don't want to be around that person etc, that is seen as removal of affection.

I don't see my family as strictly a corporate environment. However, when everyone does what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it, we have a lot more time for the fun stuff. So for example, if we need to get out early, I remind them of everything that needs to be done, in what time frame so that we can do whatever it is we need to do. It's easier when it's something fun but sometimes it's for a doctor's appt...I still expect those things to get done w/out much discussion. I won't accept the natural consequence of being late for the appt, having to wait another month for an appt, and then pay $25 no-show fee. If that's corporate, so be it. I joke w/ them "WOW our family is running like a well-oiled machine!" and then i might do a cheer lol. But it gets everyone moving and out the door.

To me the dishwasher example is both a corporate and a communal relationship...there were consequences for the entire family - lunch was delayed, b/c something was done. There can be consequences for an entire lab if someone doesn't do what they are supposed to. SOmeone leaves early and doesn't make the cell media for the next day - everyone's research is delayed.

The way we work it in our family is that we try to be mostly communal, except that I am the absolute boss of safety. So if something is a safety issue, there's no negotiation, no delaying, etc. I'm not sure how a truly natural consequences person would handle that. Perhaps such a person doesn't really exist, now that I think about it.

There are sometimes whole-family consequences to DD's choices. But then, there are also whole-family consequences to my choices, and DH's choices, etc., so I'm not overly concerned about that.

DD is an only (so far) so I've not had to deal with balancing two children's needs. I'm not sure how that would play out. I think the theory is that kids who have grown up having their needs and desires respected are simply more willing to respect the needs and desires of others.

How old is she?

My main suggestion would be to have a conversation about it outside of the moment. It sounds like the specific way you are explaining it - don't say something you don't mean - isn't quite clicking with her. Is the yelled I'm sorry intended to be sarcastic? If so maybe talking about the idea of sarcasm? I'm also wondering if having specific examples of what might be appropriate things to say might help too.

3 1/2. I realize that that is very young--but I am pretty sure that she does understand what I'm saying (and I've only discussed it with her when all is calm). And we've talked about different emotions & different ways of handling them (she is particularly fond of declaring that she's frustrated and needs to stomp her feet). I'm not sure why she does it. Sometimes she doesn't yell, but sort of sing-songs it, again obviously in an insincere way. I would almost say that she doesn't understand what "I'm sorry" means, except that she has demonstrated time & again that she gets it (e.g., when someone else has hurt her and she feels bad until they apologize).

Maybe there's just a disconnect--she is sorry; she wants to say she's sorry; but she's also still angry or amused, and I guess those feelings don't have to be mutually exclusive.