Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Seeking perspective check

Hi all,
I�m desperately seeking a perspective check regarding my dd9. We have not done IQ testing, and I don�t necessarily foresee that changing (too much money, lack of apparent interest by school to justify the money, lack of confidence in test administration generally, etc).

The two pieces of data we have in common with some of you are the Explore test and the SRI, both of which she took for the first time this year (4th grade, age 9�late summer b-day, beat the K cut-off by 6 weeks ).

I've been talking with school for years, and response has been �no big deal�. If that�s the case, I can easily live with it and take the�we-have-a-lot-of-kids-like-her� at its face. The problem is, the responses (from school) are vague enough to make me wonder, her EXPLORE scores surprised me given what the school has been saying all of these years, and the statistical analysis we received through NUMATS left me thinking that her scores were suggestive of some real strengths. So, I�m hoping that those of you who have a better sense of where your child falls, and who have experience with these measures, can help give me some perspective. I know without doubt that our dd is NOT at the PG level. What I don�t know is if these scores are typical of MG? HG? NoG? This matters to me in terms of evaluating her school's response to us.

I understand that I can�t extrapolate EXPLORE to IQ. However, my DD has had almost no ongoing guided instruction since 1st grade (large group or independent work--no small group with teacher leading). This leads me to assume that relative strengths are due mainly to innate abilities. For the last three years she has had a LOT of independent work and very little systematic feedback or instruction. Given her lack of real enthusiasm for math, this has meant starting Singapore 4A in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th grade, without ever finishing it. I got fed up this October and sent her to school with 5A (which she actually finished, albeit s-l-o-w-l-y...)

Given the absence of ongoing guided/directed insttruction, I didn�t expect much on the EXPLORE. I mainly signed her up for it so she would build some test taking skills (state assessment was way too easy).

Now what I don�t know is this. Do her scores just look good because the pool of out of level testers is actually not what it purports to be (therefore above the mean is not so meaningful?) Or are her scores actually similar to those of children her age who have been identified as gifted by multiple measures? Sorry this is so long. I'm trying to allow for the possibility that the school may be responding the way they are because these scores really aren�t atypical for generally �bright� kids in her grade level.

So�here are her scores:
English�16 (11/12 grammar; 6/12 rhetoric)
Math�16
Reading�24
Science�17
Composite�18.

SRI scores (if anyone has experience with that) 1233 in January; 1350 in May

Help?

Well, her math, reading, & composite score on the Explore qualify her for DYS for the talent search test guidelines, DYS qualification guidelines

I'd say she's a pretty bright kid!

Hi Taminy,

I'm sure those that are experienced w/ the Explore will chime in shortly. Just wanted to say hi and welcome! I agree w/ OHGrandma that those are qualifying DYS scores so your DD is definitely a very bright kid especially since she has had largely independent instruction in school! That ability alone to handle independent instruction will take her a long way in life. I do think it's sad though. If your DD is one of the few mainly being educated in this fashion, then I would say she is not the norm at the school as the administration would lead you to believe.

Dazey

Could her response in math be that she isn't getting that instruction and interaction? Singapore math, when taught as designed, is very teacher interactive in my experience. You definately have a smart girl on your hands. I can't comment on either test directly but I'm sure someone will. I would be questioning the schools response and pushing for testing.

I have no experience with the other test you mentioned, or any test really... DS just had IQ/achievement testing done this past year (3rd grade). The SRI score was one of the supporting factors for testing. I only remember that his 4th qtr score for 3rd grade was 1381. He's skipping 4th and starting 5th this year. Don't know if it's helpful or not, but FWIW...

Thanks for all the replies so far--I appreciate it! I did see the DYS score, but don't have a context for how often kids hit the mark with EXPLORE but miss it by a mile with IQ .

Melissa,
Regarding the math, I would say that it isn't her passion in general, but the way in which Singapore has been used in her classrooms has been workbook only and for independent practice (?) only. The whole group instruction when it has occurred has generally been review-ish for her. I think her lack of general enthusiasm for math has to do with multiple factors. She's global/abstract in her approach and much slower than linear processors in solving problems, so compared to other kids that she sees as "good at math", she feels slow. From my observations, her strength is in reasoning, not computation, and I don't think that that's been nurtured much. Much of her math time has spent with packets (she is not one of those kids who is motivated by sense of completion, so she tends to start, get bored, daydream.....). I suspect that math will never be her passion, but I looked at the EXPLORE score and thought it was pretty good given her background. Our school doesn't do IQ testing and at the moment also doesn't have any screener other than TOMAGS (math only and I can't find a context to interpret her score)and grade level assessments. Thus my need to reach out and seek some context--Since I can't just run around to parents of classmates that end up grouped with her and ask them what their child's scores look like, I feel like I'm flying blind. I suspect the groupings are overly broad (which in a way doesn't matter since apparently the presence of so-called peers is "enough"--there isn't any accelerated instruction to go with the groupings as far as I can see). Thanks for your comments.

JDAX,
Thanks for sharing SRI score. That's quite a score!

I noticed that you mentioned both IQ and acheivement. If you don't mind my asking, did it help you determine a LOG? I'm asking because part of what I'm trying to feel out where my DD "fits" (e.g. similar to scores of children who are a little above advanced classmates, but not quite MG? Similar to students who are a little above MG, but not quite HG?). As I said earlier, I know that I'm taking a kind of vague/broad approach given limited data, but I'll take anything that helps me get a clearer picture. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to see through sea water! Also, (again if you don't mind my asking), can I ask how old your DS was when he took the SRI? I'm not wanting to pry and I COMPLETELY understand if either of those questions are more detail than you care to share. Thanks for what you have already shared. It helps.

Ergh! I'm just so worn out from thinking about it. It feels icky to be asking about other peoples' kids b/c I end up feeling like a bad scene in a movie with all the Moms at the playground trying to one-up each other. Yuck. I really hope that that's not how it's coming across

Taminy

Taminy,

This is one of the few safe places for discussing scores! Everyone here is so helpful and there is very little (actually, don't know that I've ever seen) one-up-manship here. ALthough test scores represent a child on that day and is only small part of the picture, it's often the only thing we have when dealing with the schools. It can really help to understand what these numbers mean as well as their limitations! My son recently took the SCAT and I was shocked when I saw his scores in relation to the other top 5% kids which took the test.

It's not coming across as "icky" - I get it . I've learned that it's not always easy to talk to other people IRL about this type of thing, but gosh, there are so many questions that are hard to ask/answer without the context or perspective.

The IQ/Achievement testing was helpful in determining LOG. I had a lot of questions about where he fit - bright?, MG?, HG? - only because I wanted to know where to begin to see that he gets what he needs educationally. The folks here were kind enough to answer my questions and let me know what his LOG was, based on those scores. It was pretty much in line with what the psychologist told us, but truthfully, I thought she was exaggerating. I think the folks here call it denial.

What else...oh, he was 8(almost 9) and in 3rd grade when he took the last SRI. It sounds like you have a lot of the same questions I did. FWIW, I don't mind answering questions (although, I'm certainly no expert), you can pm me if you'd like.

Thanks for the feedback Dottie.
I'm not so surprised that reading is an outlier for a couple of reasons. First, it is absolutely her passion and of all areas covered, is the one she has spent the most time enjoying. Of all areas, at least in a multiple choice format, it is probably the least dependent on explicit instruction (of which she has had very little). It would also be the portion of the test where she wouldn't have to make judgment calls about budgeting time, because she would be unlikely to encounter something unfamiliar. The math would have items she wouldn�t know, and this would be the first test that required her to budget her time by skipping some items (which is why we were desperate for the EXPLORE test the first place ). I know she didn�t finish the math portion and would guess that there are items she knew that she never even read, because she stayed too long on items she didn�t know. At first I was surprised by the language arts score (because she loves words and notices the way language is used when she reads), but when I saw the split (grammar vs. rhetoric), it made sense to me. Writing instruction has been sadly neglected in her school (not just for her), and her weakness has always been organization. So�her natural proclivity for grammar/spelling (another favorite past time) is in line with reading, but the lack of experience organizing or analyzing writing at a global level depresses her score.

Anyhoo...I'm gathering from your comments that, based on your experience, the scores appear less ho-hum than the reaction I got from the school? I was first taken aback, and then very excited when we received the NUMATS analysis. Then when the district reaction was so underwhelming....well, it's made me question everything again. So hearing from those of you who are clearer about what is/is not typical is very, very helpful!

Taminy,
Yippee! now you can but the 'we have handfuls like her' argument to bed.
Next question is 'what to do about it?'
I wonder if the school will administer an IQ test if you ask them (in writing, on paper)

You didn't mention if she's a happy to go to school kid...does she have friends she can be herself with? Obviously she isn't being taught (which upsets me greatly) but is she getting anything else out of school? Does she love sports? Is there any reason not to gradeskip her?

Love and More Love,
grinity