Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Just Need some Support

Hi,

I'm completely new here so I'm not sure where this goes. I just really need somewhere to express my feelings about what's going on with DD.

She's really young still (only 6 months) so I feel kind of strange posting on most gifted forums because everywhere I've read said that you can't tell at this age. But the thing is, is that she's really freaking me out and I just don't feel like I can talk to any of my other mom friends about this. Whenever I do, I get the impression that they feel bad that their kid isn't doing the same. Some have even started making up nicknames for my daughter. I've had a number of moms express worry when their ND child isn't doing the same things as DD and that's not my intention at all. Which means I don't talk about what she's doing, and that stresses me out even more!

She's been running ahead on all her milestones but what really set off some bells was our 4 month well baby visit. Our pediatrician freaked out about how well our daughter was sitting up on her own, standing, etc. She said DD was the most advanced baby she's ever seen (and we go to a very busy practice in a very larger city). She kept asking about milestones that she'd hit and she'd done all of them up to 6 months and even some a lot farther past that.

Now moving ahead to 6 months she's all over the place. She can pull herself up to standing, crawl, roll everywhere, pick stuff up with the pincer grasp, drops things on the ground and watches them, even colors a bit, points to objects (like when we ask where the trees are). We've been teaching her baby signing too. We started at 4.5 months and she would almost immediately react to some of them and now at 6 months she can sign 5-6 words and responds to more.

She's also extremely social. She'll watch other kids like a hawk (especially older ones) and she tries to interact with them and will "talk" to them (she doesn't speak yet but does her baby talk). She does say "up", though, when she wants to be picked up in the air.

I guess, I'm writing this because I feel so overwhelmed. I don't know how I'm going to be able to keep up with her and I'm freaking out about schooling. I tested into the gifted program at my school in 1st grade and was bored out of my mind most of the time until HS where they offered numerous AP classes. language courses and I became obsessive about some of my extracurricular activities. I still skipped most of HS and past at the top of my class. DH was the same except his HS was horrible and he almost failed out. Went on to be the top student in college/grad school. I fear that she'll have the same problems with school and that we won't be able to afford anything better early on (dh and I are both starting our careers and there's just no way we can afford private school at this point or anytime soon).

Plus, as much as I love her she is so demanding. She goes nuts when she can't do thing (she was desperately trying to crawl since she was about 3 months old). Now she's moved on to standing up and trying to walk (gets extremely agitated when she can't do it). She cries if I stop reading to her and I basically have to hid all books out of her line of vision if we need to move on to something else. She's readjusted her nap schedule so she is awake almost the entire time I'm home from work except when I go to sleep for the night.

I could go on and on but I've already written a novel. I just don't know where to go to talk about this since it seems that it's completely taboo to talk about an advanced baby.

You've come to the right place for answers, a shoulder to lean on and support. Post away as I'm sure you will find what you are looking for here. I recommend you pick up Dr.Ruf's Book "Losing our Minds" as well as visit the Hoagies' website. www.Hoagies.com Welcome. (PS Your DD sounds "normal" for a PG baby).

HG/PG kids are highly demanding. Sponges desperately seeking to soak up as much as they can, and early-on, that comes almost entirely from you. What responsibility! Exhausting! Here's the only advice I can offer (from my dim memories of the crazy days of having babies):

1. Try routines - 5 books mid-day or afternoon before "quiet time", 5 at bed-time, Puzzle-time, walk, lunch, quiet time, etc.
2. DH insisted on afternoon "quiet time" that the kids didn't have to sleep but had to be quiet in their bed--oftentimes they'd look through books on their own, but this time really was a saving grace for me.
3. Go for walks (it sounds like work, but it was therapeutic for me and there's so much to see to stimulate the kids)
4. Educational videos also gave me a reprieve (my oldest son was obsessed by dinosaurs at age 1 so we had all the Land Before Time videos. Now my youngest enjoys Planet Earth & Blue Planet & National Geographic)
5. If you get some time to yourself, you're better able to enjoy and nurture the gifts of your child. I'd take them to museums even very young, or do counting games, library programs, etc.
6. My 3rd son spent a lot of time playing math & reading games on the computer as young as 2.

I want to say it gets easier, but really it only got easier for me when I had another baby who could help entertain/play/interact.

Thank you very much for the kind words! We'll definitely check out that book. We're trying to find resources right now to be better prepared as DD grows, so we appreciate the suggestion.

Yes! She can be very exhausting! Sometimes I'm amazed that we've survived.

The first 3 months were the worst because she cried almost constantly and then all of a sudden she just stopped once she started to play more. Things are better now but because she's working on cruising/walking we have to be extremely careful because she's trying to pull up on everything and she gets so frustrated if she can't do something.

Thank you for the suggestions, I think the one with the books is especially good. It might help her to settle down a bit if she knows what's coming in regards to books.

Haha, she'll probably just have to wait a bit in the sibling department. She's worn us out so much that it might be awhile!

Hi can empathize NewMom. My DS, now 8, was the most demanding baby. If he was awake and not eating, he was crying. I even videotaped it! Walks and books and new places and faces definitely helped. Also he really loved music and I would play everything from Broadway tunes to hard rock and dance with him. Remember to take time out for yourself as well! Once he could crawl and then walk he was happier, still demanding but happier.

Hi NewMom.

First, welcome to the board. From what you described you will have your hands full and will need the support. And you're right...talking to your friends about DD can cause some major hurt feelings and I have come to realize that it really isn't worth it. I now have my close gifted moms who I have meet on some boards that I confide in about the day to day issues and successes and as for my other friends... well, I am still friends but I don't really talk about my DD with them.

Second, I really do feel your pain on all the book reading. My DD was obsessed with books and since she never napped it was a full time job. I would like to say that with mobility the obsession lessens but I didn't see that one happen. I really think it is the way they build their vocabulary and their understanding of their world. DD learned all her ABCs by 9 mths because she was obsessed with some ABC books. She will be turning 3 yrs next month and I would like to say that books are not such a problem anymore, but I would be lying. Books are no longer a 24 hour obsession, but still a major part of her life. DD now fills part of her time with the computer which I fear is becoming the new obsession. And DD too, was able to use the computer by herself by age 2 which freed me up.

So don't hesitate to write about your DD ... we have all been there and have fond memories of the days. (Ok ... fond since we survived them.) And definitely find the time to read Ruf's book that was suggested to you. She really gets into infancy and you will see how much of what freaks you out is discussed in that book. But, of course, get ready to freak out about what else is brought up in the book. It is only natural to freak out ... part of the process.

Actually after your suggestion yesterday I brought out an old recorder of mine when she was really bored and fussy. The second I started playing it she loved it! She spent most of the time grabbing it from me and trying to figure out how I was making all those sounds.

Thank you! We just ordered her book off of amazon and in the meantime I found some sections of it on google reader and I think it would be a good read.

Ah, the computer obsession, she already has that! Both DH and I work a lot on our laptops and she's figured out if you hit buttons on the keyboard that it changes the screen. We tried buying her a toy one that talks but she's realized the real thing is MUCH better! She's lunge over our laps to get to our laptops. I'll be happy when she can safely play on it and I don't have to worry about it being dropped on the floor afterwards.

Part of it is our fault because we talk to the grandparents often on skype and she is absolutely fascinated with that.

Yeah, sounds like she will be walking probably in the next month or two. My Ds was a very physical child as well. He learned to sit up and pull up to standing in the same day!

I don't have a lot of advice. I will tell you his very favorite things were his shape sorter and his foam bath letters and numbers. Also Baby Einstein was a favorite. Especially the shape one and the orchestra one.

DD also seems to do a bunch of stuff in one day! She said her first word, signed her first two word sentence, and clapped her hands for the first time within 2 days. She also didn't sleep during that time either...

We haven't tried any of the Baby Einstein stuff yet but I might have to look into it since we're always on the lookout for new toys.

Welcome to the wonderful but sometimes lonely world of being the parent of a gifted child. My daughter was advanced almost from the beginning and months ahead of many milestones. My husband and I quickly learned that we could not exchange stories with our friends the way others did as we were perceived as exaggerating or hopelessly bragging. Her achievements were our "secrets" and we were selective with whom we shared them with in our circles. Even our pediatrician was less than thrilled to hear about her extensive vocabulary during her one year check up. For three years we felt like very lonely and different parents. We knew she was smart and different but how different we had no clue. That is until her preschool teacher recommended we have her tested. Her scores put her in the PG range. With the help of our psychologist we were then able to connect with a group of parents of other gifted kids. It is in those meetings that we are able to partake without guilt in one of the pleasures of parenting--bragging on your kid. Good luck and know that you are not alone, you just have to find the right audience.

Your baby sounds wonderful and you should be here. It is hard when you cannot talk to your friends, because their kids may not be doing the same and that makes them uncomfortable.

You have an amazing child but this is only the beginning. Many here experienced skipping grades, still being bored and maybe not doing as well, or giving ourselves as many options as a result. One of the things you find here, is that we want to optimize our child's options by feeding their curiousity and enthusiasm to learn -- which starts now. That curious 6m wants to know, wants to learn. Some of us just didn't get that. Knew our children acted a little different, were ahead of the milestones but just didn't get how different they were.

There will be some -- few who will give you the comments that your child is really smart, or amazing or whatever, but not the majority. Someone else wrote about how HG+ children are like special needs children. Think of it that way. They have a special need. If they had any other kind of special need you would start immediately to support that need.

Good luck.

Ren

It is a wonderful and fun thing to have a baby. As they saying goes the days are long but the years are short - so enjoy it while it lasts.

The one piece of advice I have is to recognize that the similarities with other parents and their experience of their children are far more significant than the differences potentially related to giftedness. Because your child seems to be hitting milestones early doesn't mean her life or parenthood needs to be primarily described or defined in those terms and to do so may highlight differences in a way that isn't helpful in her identity or your relationships with other people. While I certainly appreciate your long term concerns for her education, I would encourage you to enjoy her for the person she is and accept her development as normal because it is. The amount of growth and development in all kids from zero to age two is absolutely amazing.

And, I strongly agree with the suggestion to have routines and structure to the day. 5 books, walk, snuggle time, etc. Getting into that predictable rhythm for the day can make like so much easier for all involved.

I certainly agree all people deserve to have support and understanding and I'm glad you found that.

I wonder if we could talk a bit though about the idea that bragging about children's development is a part of parenting that all parents should enjoy and have a right to. I find the notion of bragging about the development or accomplishments of another person to be really odd. When I hear it I wonder about what is lacking in the life of the person bragging about their child. Most people learn to walk and read so these aren't rare accomplishments but for most people natural parts of development. To me it seems akin to bragging that your child has toes that are growing. It just is. I also wonder about the child's right to privacy in their development. I would personally not appreciate if my mother or husband or best friend had a blog devoted to talking about how precocious I am. Why is it more appropriate to do so if the person involved is too young to consent?

I certainly understand why parents delight in seeing their children grow and discover the world. I personally that as something entirely distinct from bragging rights.

Thanks! I'm glad that you were able to find a peer group for your daughter and get that support. We've been fortunate to have a pediatrican who thus far has been excited about what DD is doing. I'm sorry that your pediatrician wasn't supportive.

Thanks! Yes, I think if it wouldn't have been for my pediatrician's comments I probably would've figured that DD was ahead but I wouldn't have thought of it being as unusual as it is. However, I'm glad I do have some heads up because like you said we really do want to encourage her interest in the world around her and not let that enthusiasm die out.

Yes, and I can understand the special needs comment. I went to school for awhile with a boy who was most likely HG+. He was also 2E (had autism) but regardless of that he learned in entirely different way than the rest of us and his mom ended up having to homeschool him because of that.

Yes, we do make sure to take things in stride. I purposely sought out this board because I also had specific questions regarding her abilities. I've tried asking some of my mom friends but I've found that it just makes them worry about the development of their own kids plus I wasn't able to find the answers that I needed.

I think I will have to respectfully disagree with you here. I am fascinated by all the things my daughter does. Whether it be the fact that she's talking early or how quickly her precious little hands are growing. We didn't even know if it was possible if we would be able to have kids and so I am excited about absolutely everything she does.

I think the desire to share those things with others or not comes down to personality. I have some friends that are introverts and just prefer to keep these things to themselves. Others are extroverts (more like myself) and feel bottled up if they can't talk of their life and their family.

I do blog. A small part of that is wanting to share her accomplishments but there's also a lot more too that. It's extremely therapeutic for me to write about her. It helps me sort through my thoughts and adjust to my new roll as a mom. I only linked it here because I thought other parents might appreciate what I'm going through and/or it would bring back fond memories of their children's own infanthood. I don't see it as any different than a mom writing about her special needs child, or adopted child, or her normal developing child, etc.

ETA: I also wanted to mention that I do it to keep track of her milestones. I just am horrible at keeping a journal and this way I seem to be more motivated. My parents have absolutely no record of what I did as a child and I feel as if something was missing there.

Hi Newmom -

I can completely understand where you're coming from - when my DD was born, I had no idea what was "normal" except what I read in parenting books. Both the books and our family doctor attributed her constant screaming/fussiness to colic, and we attempted to ride out the (very rocky) storm. I think I averaged 3-4 hours of sleep each night of her first six months! However, we started to notice that she seemed better with stimulation - dancing with her, speaking directly to her in animated tones - and we had to carry her upright EVERYWHERE (no placing her in a prone position in her carrier while shopping or going for a walk!). People would stare at us in the grocery store because by 5 months we'd have her sitting upright on her own in the cart - just to get through the shopping trip without any screaming!

Related to this was the fact that she got REALLY mad, starting almost from birth, if we'd lay her down. She would try to roll over and scream mercilessly when she couldn't. Her attitude improved at a little over 2 months when she mastered it, but went downhill again as she began trying to pull up. Until that point, I didn't know a baby that young could show frustration, but it was written all over her. My friends all thought I was crazy when I was relieved that she "finally" started walking at 8 months! The tantrums improved significantly at that point, and we managed to get some relief. However, she's always been high-strung - even to the point where I started doing research to find out if something was wrong with her (DH has one occurrence of mental illness on his side of the family, and we were terrified it had cropped up in our kid) - but everything I typed in eventually led back to giftedness in some way. To be honest, this had never even occurred to me - both my DH and I are bright people, but I don't consider either of us GIFTED.

Anyway, long story short, after 4 years of her quirks and craziness, we finally had her tested to find out where she's at. She was well above the 99th percentile, which only verified what we'd suspected all along.

My point here is that (a), you're not alone in this wild ride and (b), kudos to you for recognizing giftedness when you see it. My life would have been much less stressful during DD's first two years of life if I had been able to attribute the things we were seeing to giftedness (rather than something potentially "wrong" with her). So I think you're ahead of the game!

A couple of things we just learned through trial and error: the frustration she experienced before she could walk was alleviated somewhat by the greatest invention for exhausted moms EVER - the doorway bouncer. That thing allowed me to actually have 30 minutes of uninterrupted time to fold the laundry, check email, or start supper. Your DD may be too old for this already (we started using it at 4 months and she enjoyed it until she could cruise well around the furniture), but it was a lifesaver for an exhausted mom!

The other thing that worked really well for us was going on long walks. Being outside really soothed her, but the catch was that we couldn't put her in the stroller because she needed more stimulation than that. I would carry her facing outward and point out everything, talking the whole time, so she could see what I saw. I was always envious of those moms who would meet at the park and talk while their babies contentedly played with a rattle or slept in their carriers - I was never able to do that because DD would always start screaming the minute she wasn't getting any stimulation! It was especially hard because my friends would insinuate that I was spoiling her by always carrying her around, but I did what I had to do in order to survive - especially that first year. :-)

Anyway, I could go on and on - just try to enjoy these early months, because tomorrow you'll turn around and she'll be starting kindergarten (a whole other issue in itself!).

Best of luck!

This seems a most unusual point of view to me. I'm in a few different mom's organizations, and it seems to me that at least 50% of our discussions are about our kids. What's going on with them, challenges we're facing, and what milestones they are reaching. It's not really 'bragging' per se, but mostly about sharing our excitement about our kid's development. Watching kids grow and learn *is* exciting.

For me, if I talk about things my DD5 is doing, it is perceived as bragging because she is ahead. If I talk about my preemie twins who are slightly delayed due to their prematurity, no one even bats and eye or they even get excited with me. It feels very isolating not being able to discuss one of your kids. I wish I didn't have to edit out all cognitive things going on in her life.

Obviously, this all depends on the type of person the parent is, and the type of people they are talking to. I find moms discuss their kids more than dads. I find both types discuss their kids more with actual friends more than acquaintances, random coworkers or strangers. But all that being said, I have even heard my extremely introverted DH share with a friend that the twins are crawling now.

All that to say, that obviously you should do what you are comfortable with, but most parents I know like to be able to discuss their kids. Many, many moms I know also blog about their families and kids. It is a great way to share with distant family and friends what is going on in your life and also a great way to remember it later for yourself. (I don't remember much of my twins first year, for example.)

Just my $.02.

I like to discuss and celebrate what kids are doing--all kids! I have a friend with a developmentally delayed child, and I get just as excited about what he's newly able to do as I do about what my friends with PG kids tell me about their kids' development. And all those kids in between delayed and gifted. Kids are just really, really cool, and it's fun to celebrate how they grow and change.

I think maybe what we're talking about is not so much "bragging," as in "my kid is better than your kid" or something icky like that. I think it's about being excited and enjoying what kids are doing. It's about sharing the good days, and not just trying to solve (or even just complaining about) the problems. It's about loving our job of parenting.

We have a brag thread here, and it's one of my favorite threads to read. I LOVE hearing what cool things these kids are doing, the challenges they're overcoming, the kindnesses they show to other people. That's really the sort of stuff we brag about here. I personally think that's very healthy, and it's definitely not focused on precociousness. It's about celebrating happy growth as a community. I like that, and I wish people IRL could do more of that with us.

Yep. I think it is a problem of multiple definitions. I often call it "bragging" when I say something positive about DD, even when it is about run-of-the-mill every-kid-does-it stuff. But I certainly do not engage in (or believe in) the sort of my-kid-is-better-than-yours nonsense that is true bragging.

Kriston, you said it much better. One of the things I love about this place is it is such a safe and welcoming place to talk about our kids. All kinds of kids.

It seems like many parents of gifted kids believe the problem of these competitive milestone conversations are just that other kids are behind their kid so they can't comfortably discuss their kid's accomplishments. I'm wondering if anyone has considered that there is another even more uncomfortable place in these conversations and that is for the folks on the other end of the developmental bell curve. We are on both ends of the bell curve and perhaps it takes that experience to really question the entire approach of defining milestones or accomplishments as what makes our children valuable or interesting people worthy of discussion in casual conversation.

I'm sure my opinion is unusual though in my experience not uncommon among parents of kids with disabilities (perhaps more than "slight" as you mentioned). I'm sure what you are describing is very common for moms' groups which is why some people find them irritating and promoting of parental insecurity.

I don't think it is uncommon to find people who gas on about the ages their children accomplish milestones as being irritating. We attended one playgroup where such talk dominated the conversation. Sure, most were clever enough to be creative about the way they presented the conversation "I'm really wondering if Susie will have trouble with reading since we are in a bilingual household, she's already sight reading some of course..." or "Junior just won't watch kid's programming but of course he's always just been so advanced..."


I've been interested in the moms who enjoy their kids but aren't reciting milestones. Let's have a conversation about books, restaurants, a happy moment yesterday, how tired we are...all of that stuff is more supportive and more interesting to me.

I don't see it as an introvert-extrovert question. I'm very extroverted, but I don't think my child's life and his accomplishments belong to me to brag about, to blog about, to define my identity by. I don't see what makes my child worth loving, worth carrying about, worth talking about that he was 3 months early in sitting up or making a two word sentence. That seems like nonsense to focus on. It tends to make most people who are out of the middle of the developmental bell curve feel bad and I don't see what it accomplishes in the process.

Maybe my perspective is different because I have a teenager and I've seen that being very low key is the long term road to having people in your life support your decisions. We've received absolutely no flack for our kid being PG and being radically accelerated . We don't hide, but share as it comes up in context and don't talk milestones. It has worked well for us.

Doesn't that reveal that there is a competitive element to these conversations?

It is defining what it special about a child in relationship to developmental milestones especially when they are naturally occurring ones. I understand if you've fought hard for years to get a child to say their first word or take their first step - that's a milestone. But, for most kids these things happen pretty incidentally without a lot of effort. So, it may be worth pondering...how would you feel if today is the last day your daughter seems precocious. How would that change how you talk about her, blog about her, think about her life? What might you focus on instead?

I definitely think that early demand for stimulation is a real indicator. Lucky you picked up on it. As an infant, our DS10 would cry if we weren't at least giving him eye contact, from very early on. He would also cry if left lying down, cry if in wind, sun.... He was absolutely exhausting because of it.

We just thought it was some sort of colic.

Likewise, when he started talking very, very early, we really didn't understand how early this was compared to other kids.

We really had no idea and didn't start figuring out the whole GT thing until K. So,we did no reading on this issue and made some mistakes:

1. Letting people praise our child for smartness.

We didn't know how to deal with all the people exclaiming over our non-walking, super-talking baby. We were happy to let people praise him for being "so smart" because we thought it would be good for his self-esteem. It turns out that he so identifies with being "smart" that now he avoids anything he doesn't get right away. He has unbelievably high standards for himself that he struggles to meet, all because he's laboring under this idea that he's smart, so everything should be super-easy, and if it's not (gulp) maybe he's not smart.

What I know now is that no matter how smart the kid is, you shouldn't praise the child for this gift, but instead for what the child is doing with the gift. Praise hard work, praise trying, praise thinking things through.

Oops, I was giong to write more but parental duty calls...
GL,,

bk

Goodness, I'm sorry you had such a poor experience. I wouldn't want to talk with moms who talk like that either. That sounds very different than the groups I am familiar with in my area.

We discuss all kinds of things, including what you have mentioned above and more. Books, movies, politics, and hopes for the future. It's not all about the kids. Now, if I could just find another mom IRL who likes sci-fi books, I'll be all set.

Everyone is different, and we all look for different things in our friendships. I just don't want other people to feel that there is something wrong with them because they want to talk about what is going on in their kids lives. Many parents (obviously not all) love to talk about their kids regardless of whether they are advanced or not.

This is great advice!

newMom21C, my DD was not as advanced as your DD sounds, but she was very demanding in that first year. My suggestion is to find a way to get a break now and then, just to mitigate the extreme exhaustion that goes along with this level of demand. Maybe your DH, a friend, or even a teenager you know could watch her for an hour or even a half hour now and then to give you a chance to catch your breath, so to speak. A nice hot bath with a good book can do wonders for your energy level. Good luck!

A recitation of milestones would be annoying. But I think that growing and developing is the job of kids. It's what they do. My job is to help them do that. Not talking about what they do is like not being able to talk about our work. That seems forced to me, especially in groups that come together because of parenting issues. Parenting is the one thing--sometimes the only thing!--we have in common. It's the natural topic of conversation.

I agree completely, passthepotatoes, that the value of a person does not lie in what they can do when. But I don't think that's necessarily what kids are being reduced to when a parent wants to say nice things about a child or even wants to make a list of milestones for the grandparents and for the child herself as she grows up. Baby books are full of that stuff! Some of that is just about recording the child's history.

I guess for me it's about love. It's certainly not about putting other kids down or making other parents feel bad. It's about appreciating all kids and making everyone feel good--the kids about themselves and the parents about the job. Actually, I've found that it's often with parents of developmentally disabled kids that BOTH sets of parents feel most free to share the good stuff. Anyone who has kids outside the norm are more likely to identify with the need to celebrate and not being able to in public. If it were about competitiveness, I don't think that would work. I think people with kids at the left side of the Bell Curve too often get pity when they want celebration, and I think the people with kids on the right side get competition (or disbelief) when they want celebration.

I guess my point is that I hear what you're saying, but I don't think a list of milestones for general public consumption is what people here mean by "bragging." It's the "happy moment" that you alluded to yourself. I don't think that's a bad thing, I don't think it's about defining a child by how fast they do things, and I don't think it's competitive. I think it's about taking pleasure in our kids, as all parents should do, and as most parents get to do in public without fear of social retribution.

Maybe that's the difference... I think that if a kid doesn't have disabilities most of these milestones that are generating comment aren't work - not their work and certainly not my work. They are simply a part of the process of developing. To gas on about the kid putting two words together seems a lot like gassing on about the kid's toes growing. It isn't something to claim credit for. It simply is. In the scheme of many parenting related topics we could be discussing it seems one of the least interesting to me.

It does say something I think if people hear not talking about milestones as the equivalent of not talking about or enjoying children.


Maybe that's it. I'm not a fan of the dates and names version of teaching history either. The most important themes can be missed in the details. For most of us the age we sit or say a two word sentence has little or nothing to do with what our lives actually become. And the early emphasis on these types of milestones may shape who we are in ways that aren't positive. The attention to smarts, the early expectations of precociousness once established by parents can be hard to put the breaks on later.


But, the reality is that it often makes parents of young children feel terrible and insecure. It makes people worry about their kids and the ways they don't fit. Any two minutes on any parenting board online reveals the ways in which these comparisons feed insecurity.


Do you have a developmentally disabled child? I would keep in mind that many disabled kids aren't not accurately diagnosed during the baby, toddler or preschool years so many parents during that time don't have a neat label that makes everyone comfortable with sharing milestones that are far out of the norm. All people may have is a vague uncomfortable feeling that something isn't quite right and when they share stuff people are not quite sure how to react.


Well put. I agree. That's why I say instead of seeing this as a process of love we take the more radical step of rethinking if this is how we want to define what it means to enjoy or know children. What ways can we find to enjoy children that are totally separate from defining them, and us by extension, by their accomplishments or talents?

Your example is cracking me up because I know that I have brought up the rapid rate at which my DD3 goes through shoe sizes on several occasions--but I have never mentioned her putting two words together (nor do I even have a clue when that happened). Gosh, I must be a horribly boring conversationalist.

I wonder what topics related to parenting you would advise introducing at the playground? I'm up for more interesting conversation, but sadly I often cannot think of any when I am with a group of near-strangers.

Hi!

I made the original "bragging about your kid" comment. Wow what a way to start your first post. I think perhaps the way I used the term "bragging" was taken out of context. Perhaps I should have just said "talking about your kid." I rarely ever even bring up the subject of DD's development with friends, especially ones with children because I know it will be perceived as "bragging." However, people ask "so what is she doing now." I guess it is just a conversation starter. At 1 she could recite the alphabet. I was not going to lie. So I answered honestly. She knows the alphabet she is sight reading a little. Not bragging, just being honest. The next time I saw the person with a sarcastic tone she says so is she done with War and Peace yet? So an honest answer to a question asked of me about my child was taken as bragging because of what my child was doing. I guess I have just had some bad experiences. Hopefully those of others have been better.

I also think that DD deserves to hear that I am proud of her abilities and achievements, not that I ignore them or pretend that they do not exist. Or worse, hide them to fit in with others. She is smart and even at 4 she recognizes that how she learns is somewhat different than her peers. I think that was evident when she tried having a conversation with a friend's daughter about why dinosaurs went extinct and was met with a blank stare. My biggest fear is that as a teenager DD will decide that it is better to mask her talents to fit in than it is to be a girl that loves and is very good at math and science. I want DD to know that as a parent I am proud of her in every way and that being smart is a good thing, not something to be ashamed of or hide from.

I do not go around reciting my DDs IQ score because yes I believe that would be an invasion of her privacy and a pointless exercise. I do not have a blog (although I have no problem with it). In fact, I resisted the invitation to have a news article written about DD as one of the youngest members of MENSA in our area because I felt that would be an invasion of her privacy and I saw no benefit to doing so. The sole reason we signed her up for MENSA was so we could hopefully meet some other families with gifted kids. Our hope was to find some play peers for DD as she had encountered some difficulty in connecting with same age peers.

And, for the record, the only thing that I think is lacking in my own life right now is more time. I am happily married, work full time at a job I love, am a mother to two kids, have a network of friends, and some hobbies like photography that regrettably I do not have the time to properly indulge at the moment.

When I had my child, I was new to the community. I joined the local early childhood learning classes to meet people and to learn about raising a child. I did not babysit much and knew very little about what to expect with babies. I'm no psychologist, but I think it is perfectly natural for people to talk about what's going on with their children so they can know if that's what is supposed to happen. And if something was out of the norm, I could seek medical advice if needed. I enjoyed hearing about the other children, since I had known them since they were 4 months old and it was fun for me to see them grow up. I did find out that it made some of the mothers feel bad when my DS was doing things at 6 months or whenever that their kids weren't doing yet, so I ended up clamming up. And I felt like I missed out on sharing and on being a true part of a community. I was so happy when I found this site. I felt that I really had found my people, and I could talk freely about whatever DS was doing, and I wouldn't be judged or disbelieved; I would be supported.

Now that DS is 5, I know little about what to expect in kindergarten around here (things have changed in the 30+ years since I went to a different type of school), so when I see other parents with school-age kids, I tend to ask questions about what goes on during the school year. P-the-P probably wouldn't find any of these conversations interesting, but that's fine - everyone has different personalities. Since DS is my one and only, every parenting experience is new to me, and I like to learn as much as I can about it.

Re: bragging. I see b0th sides of the discussion. I like talking about my kids, but I know I have to be very careful about what to talk about and how to talk about it. If we are not careful, innocent conversation can be regarded as borderline bragging. Plus I have heard parents brag abuot their kids and it is indeed uncomfortable for the listeners. But on the other hand, every parent has the right to feel proud for their kids and it's weird if parents can celebrate their kids' achievement only if it is not extraordinary. In the end I think each one of us will figure out the right balance and the right group of people to talk about such things. I generally don't talk about my kids being amazing even to close friends, but I would tell them what my kids are doing these days if the occasion is right: what they are reading, whether DS got medals/trophies in recent competitions, trouble with teachers, messy rooms... In a lot of situations it is possible to talk about issues without being too specific. For example I have talked about DS9's trouble in the classroom with many parents without having to tell anyone how advanced DS is. Just saying that the problems stem from him being advanced and bored seems to be sufficient for most parents to understand our issues. This way I get to hear other families' experience without seeming to brag.

Re: milestones. I think there are pros and cons to pay too much attention to them. In some cases, picking up signs early will help parents to prepare for their kids' special needs (on either side of the spectrum). On the other hand, if you don't know, you don't worry. We never paid much attention to milestones with DS because he was clearly very smart and we didn't suspect that he was slow in anything. We just went along with what he demanded: if he wanted to do math we found math material; if he wanted to read history we checked out history books for himl; if he wanted to discuss solar system we discussed with him... Granted, it was a huge surprise to us when he entered K and we realized how advanced he was. But before K, we were free of stress.

We paid more attention to milestones with DD, because she was much slower on lots of things. But through this we also learned that the milestones really are only a guideline, not golden rules. DD4 staretd talking much later than DS9, but now she is much more articulate than DS when he was 4, and her imagination when she makes up stories is simply amazing. DD started crawling and walking very late compared with kids of the same age, but she started running as soon as she started walking and is now an amazingly athletic kid (she outruns all the 5yo girls in her preschool and in sports lessons she is generally better than the 5yos there as well). She started out late, but now that we watch her, we think she is just as talented/gifted as her older brother.

I thought the same thing, no5no5.

I guess I don't understand the "gas on and on" thing, passthepotatoes. It seems like you've had some really bad experiences. Yes? It seems you're assuming an utter lack of sensitivity, when the point is that most people want to come here to talk about their kids *precisely because* they are sensitive to how their kids' accelerated intellectual development will affect others.

Could we agree that boorish behavior is NOT what we're talking about? I mean, "gassing on and on" would be rude regardless of the topic! I wouldn't want to gas on and on about the book I'm writing, but I might mention it in conversation because it's what I do all day, just like I might want to talk about my kids a little. No gas! About anything!

Trust me when I say that practically no one I see at the playground is going to have more than 3 words to say to me about Vikings (the topic of my novel) or the latest Science Channel show (since they watch American Idol and I don't). So what do we discuss? The weather gets old as a topic...

Part of having different kids is often being different, too. Kids are one thing--often the only thing!--I share with the people around me. It's hard that it's not open for discussion. but it isn't in most places. Here, it is and that's really nice!


I agree completely that milestones aren't the point, and someone who can only talk about that is a boor and a bore. I think we agree more than you are seeing.

But again, I think you're missing a very important point here.

It's not about "claiming credit" for anything. I really think you're misunderstanding what we mean by bragging. Think "saying nice things about and being proud of the people they are" instead of "gassing on and on." Think "being excited about how they overcome obstacles" or "loving that they don't give up, even when it's hard." Do you have a problem with that kind of pride?

The problem--the reason other people might THINK we're competing when we're not!--is that the things the kids have to work hard at are often so advanced that most other people don't understand that these things ARE hard for the kids, that they ARE overcoming obstacles.

I mean, *you're* even assuming everything is easy for them! Just because they're gifted doesn't mean that everything is easy!

When our kids show strength of character--GT or no--I feel strongly that we have a right as parents to feel proud of our kids and to want to say, "Hey, isn't this great! Yay!" But if what they work hard at is spelling a challenging word at 3yo or mastering a difficult algebra problem at 8yo, people don't get that it's the hard work, not the spelling or the algebra that is important. They hear "algebra" and stop.

Look at the brag thread. See the things that people think are brag-worthy that they can't share IRL. It's almost never "he hit this milestone early." Nearly all are things there are things that are clever or funny or quirky or show real strength of character. Yet these are things we know we cannot share with most other parents.


I don't have a diagnosis for a developmentally disabled child--possibly one with LDs or 2E issues, though all I have right now is the vague uncomfortable feeling that something isn't quite right. He's not hitting most milestones early, though he's way ahead on a few. 2E seems likely. (And BTW, I love to brag/say nice things about him, too, regardless of milestones! He's such a wonderful kid!)

My friends with developmentally disabled kids have elementary-aged kids or older, not babies or toddlers. They all have diagnoses. One very good friend has a 25yo son who just moved into a group home to live without mom and dad for the first time. We've talked a lot about how proud they are of him, and they don't/can't do that with most people. Pity again.

But most of the developmentally disabled kids I know are in the 5-10yo range, and several parents have commented to me about how nice it is that they get to speak freely with me about schools, special needs, individualized education, and even milestones their kids have hit and how pleased they are about their progress, and we've chatted about how much more we have in common than we have with the parents of kids in the middle of the Bell Curve. I am careful not to be insensitive, but I am able to say, "He doesn't fit the norm, and that's a challenge we face," and they understand.

I hope that does a better job of clarifying.

One other note:

One thing I see a lot is parents (of both GT and ND kids) who--to avoid bragging--only say bad things about their kids. They gripe all the time. It gets old, and I don't think it's healthy for kids to hear that. It seems to be in vogue to be hyper-critical.

For every one bad thing a child hears, they need something like 9 good things to get their self-esteem back to baseline. Such is the power of negativity. So I want my kids to hear me saying nice things! About who they are as human beings and the good choices they make in life, the things they can control.

I agree the criticism and negativity are huge problems. Sometimes my kid is such a PITA is traded by parents as a kind of currency and it is hurtful. Do you at all see that pride and shame are just flip sides of the same coin?

If you said it once I'd think you were trying to make conversation and I might try to make conversation back by soliciting your opinions about shoe shopping since you are probably more expert. If you said it more than once I'd wonder if you've considered there may be somebody in the room who is worried about their child growing slowly and the fact that the last three times they've bought the same size shoes.


This stuff is easy for me so I'm probably being insensitive that part of why milestones dominate conversation is people can't think of other things to talk about. If you are genuinely interested in other people it seems like conversational topics would emerge fairly easily... other parks with good playgrounds, shared interest in dinosaurs, hobbies like knitting, life while half asleep, etc.

Add to that good children's books, CDs, events that shouldn't be missed, fun places to take the kids, ongoing sales, which sports programs/music teachers to choose, and parents' own interests... I actually never felt that I could run out of topics with my friends. Some parents would bring the conversation back to what their kids can do, but if this is not always the main theme it's quite harmless.

I'm not to sure about this whole dialogue re: gassing and bragging. Though I do struggle with how to frame anything I say about my son in certain company.
I don't understand the need to label a baby gifted and then blog about it to boot. Can we all look back at infancy and say there were signs. Sure - maybe. I bet there are plenty of parents with ND bright kids that do the same.
Many child development specialists say that anything can happen up to the age of 2. And although I clearly saw signs of giftedness in ds7 before 2, I would never mention my suscipions let alone have a brag blog. Did I write my thoughts in a private journal - yes. I also wrote about everything my son did - barfing on the dog, peeing on MIL (that was a great moment - LOL!). I struggled for 10 years with infertility and thought I would never have children. My son is my greatest joy.
I would take into consideration how actions and expectations can shape a child. Babies should be enjoyed just for being babies regardless of milestones. Stop and smell the baby powder. That's my bit of advice for what it's worth.

I was not really caught up on milestones with our daughter either except for noting she was ahead. I will say, however, that finding out that she was "gifted" was somewhat of a relief for us. Many of the cognitive milestones she was ahead on yes, but our concern for months was her complete lack of interest in other children her own age. She preferred the company of adults from a very young age and when we started her in preschool she had no interest in playing with the other kids. Zero. I was so upset because I envisioned this friendless life for her. I did completely the wrong thing which was to set up play dates with younger children thinking that kids her own age were somehow socially intimidating to her. Then upon the advice of her preschool teacher we had her evaluated by a psychologist. She suggested that perhaps DD was having a hard time communicating with her peers because of her advanced vocabulary and suggested we try letting her socialize some with kids a few years older. It worked and now that her age peers have more developed vocabularies she is playing with them more as well. Not sure exactly what my point is other than I guess knowing she was gifted from a younger age might have helped us understand more what was going on with her and avoided some worry. However, I am sure I would have found something else to worry about

Wow. This topic has certainly generated a lot of passion I'm a big fan of honest conversation, and this is a difficult issue for many of us, so I think it's probably good that we're having it. At the same time, I hope that it does not leave any of us reticent to share our feelings about our kids. For me anyway, this board has provided something that has been sorely lacking in my world--a place to share without reservation what I'm experiencing as the parent of kids who are outside the "norm".

I was thinking about this whole debate about milestones, and it makes me kind of sad that talking about milestones is perceived as bragging, even here. To me, every new thing that my children learned to do gave me such a sense of wonder. I have spent all of my working life surrounded by kids, and as excited as I was about the idea of having my own, I was completely unprepared for the experience of watching my own children develop day by day. I think about those nature films with the time lapse photography of a flower blooming. Being a parent feels a lot like that. Milestones, if you want to call them that are cause for celebration for us, because they were cause for celebration for our children--each new thing they learned to do delighted them, and I was delighted by their delight and amazed by the experience of watching their development. As adults with busy lives, I think we often fail to slow down and appreciate how amazing our natural world is. It is easy to take our bodies, brains and hearts for granted, but when we watch our children develop, we notice those things. Why would we not want to speak that wonder and enjoyment out loud?

Because we seem to have a competitive cultural mindset; because conformity is so valued; because, because, and because...IRL talking honestly about our children and the joys and challenges we experience IS often uncomfortable. I enjoy listening to other parents talk about their kids. Stories about kids are often amazing or funny or sweet in a way that stories about adults rarely are. But when I listen to parents talk, I always feel I have to exercise some caution in my response. If what my children are doing, or what my children are challenged by is too discrepant from what I've just heard, then I feel silenced. Here, on this board, my children are never the highest acheivers. I don't have to worry that my honest sharing of joys or worries will be greeted with suspicion or the "well MY child...." response that comes from an assumption that my comments are meant to be comparative.

In this place I will continue to share my joys, wonders and worries; and to be an ear for the joys, wonders and worries of others. I won't see it as bragging when someone shares a turning point, accomplishment or wonder they witness as a parent; and I will hope that others won't percieve my share outs as bragging either. I believe that we all need to celebrate positives in order to be happy, and to be able to reach out for support and understanding in order to be healthy. Thank goodness for this place where we can feel free to do that without being plagued by that feeling of otherness!

Yes, Taminy, yes. Thank you so much--you said this so beautifully.

I've only been here for ten months or so, but there are many people here I have come to cherish, and I would miss very much not hearing stories about your children. We are all on a journey of love, and I have appreciated your company along the way.

peace
minnie

Taminy you said exactly what I was trying to say with my original post. It is nice to find a place, cyber or otherwise, where you can discuss your child honestly, openly and without fear. Call it talking, bragging, discussing, whatever you will--it is a good thing.

Well said Taminy, well said.

I'm wondering in hindsight do you see ways to answer that question honestly without bragging or being ashamed?

To me it is lot like if someone asked "so what's your husband been up to lately?" and you replied "he's making a quarter of a million dollars now and is fluent in German." Yes, that's honest but "he's still enjoying his job and he's playing golf in any free moment he can get" is also honest and far less likely to make people think you are obnoxious.

It is revealing to me when the options are being presented as 1. talk about milestones and be honest about your kids or 2. don't talk about milestones and be a liar who is ashamed of her kids. There really is another alternative.

I don't often mention that DH is a doctor because I have gotten some pretty yucky comments in the past. But then someone will ask how he's doing and I'll say that he's really overworked (some days that is the only honest answer besides "still breathing" and "hanging on by a thread"), and they ask what he does...and I'm stuck.

I think most of the people in this thread are trying to find that balance between not saying anything and saying too much. Sometimes that line is hard to find, especially when general answers provoke follow up questions.

Actually I'd say the way in which our experience seems really different from what a lot of people posted is that we've received basically no negative feedback for having a very precocious radically accelerated kid. That may be all luck but I suspect some of that is because we have a very different view of talking about comparing child development and of the importance of milestones.

I'd say the conversations I've heard at playgroups are probably quite typical as we were in a few different types of groups over the years and hit a pretty good cross section of middle and upper middle class educated moms. Given the number of posters who are equating not talking about milestones as lying or not talking about children it suggests to me that these are pretty widespread ways of thinking.


I think you may be missing my point. I'm not saying parents of gifted kids gas on more than others. Rather maybe the entire custom of social conversation surrounding kids milestones could use some changing because clearly it makes a lot of people feel odd or bad. Instead of trying to just recreate other circles for bragging maybe we should instead try to think my broadly and think about how we can be more comfortable having kids in our lives as something other than models of accomplishment.

How can we enjoy our kids or think about our lives as parents in ways that are distinct from accomplishments? Maybe thinking about this will ultimately lead to people finding more comfortable ways IRL to have supportive relationships with parents of kids with all different ability levels.


I generally find if I start from a place of genuine interest about others I learn a lot. Instead of starting from trying to figure out if people are prepared to talk at the right level about your pet interests, I would start with genuine curiosity and see where that leads. When you find out what makes other people tick they often want to know what is important to you too.


I see love as distinct from pride and would caution against seeing them as interchangeable ideas as many do. The kinds of early milestones mentioned in this thread - stringing two words together, memorizing the alphabet, standing, etc. are things that in typically developing kids tend to come pretty naturally without a lot of struggle or hardship. Under those circumstances I find pride a lot like pride in the fact that the child's toes are growing. Sure feel glad that you manage to go to the grocery store and feed them, but to the extent to which there is an accomplishment there, it doesn't belong to you. There is only a very little line between parental pride and pressure and perfectionism. Some kids really only need the tiniest hint that it is really important to their parents in order to shut down. I don't see how it is possible to be telling the other moms at playgroup how proud you are of junior's precocious reading without junior picking up that hey this is really, really important to my mom.


I dispute that either of these is a big accomplishment or is revealing of great personal fortitude - rather they may stand in for as close as a bright kid gets to getting the opportunity for challenge that all kids deserve and many more typically developing kids get every day. That said, I suspect you'll find people are far more willing to accept algebra accomplishments are meaningful if earlier who haven't established yourself as the person who talked about memorizing the alphabet.

[quote=Kriston]Look at the brag thread. See the things that people think are brag-worthy that they can't share IRL. It's almost never "he hit this milestone early." Nearly all are things there are things that are clever or funny or quirky or show real strength of character. Yet these are things we know we cannot share with most other parents.[/quote

And, I'm looking for ways for people to learn to talk about their kids IRL and feel comfortable about it. How can we change the culture of playgroup bragging to instead lead to meaningful comfortable discussions?

I don't think anyone here is ashamed of his/her kids.

Also, I don't think being profoundly gifted is analogous to making a quarter of a million dollars a year. Most people here understand that there are good AND bad things associated with being gifted, but we can't discuss any of this with other people because they only see the advantages and thus perceive anything we say about our kids as bragging.

I wish I could be honest about why I enrolled my son in kindergarten a full year early at a private school instead of the local public school. Instead, I find myself struggling to find some evasive half-truth that won't upset anyone. I've taken to telling people he's going to a junior-kindergarten, not a real kindergarten, which is a complete lie. And believe me, people want to know. People ask me directly where he's going and why. Is it obnoxious to wish I could simply answer them honestly without them taking it personally?

? My suggestion on the salary was that it not the way most of us would answer a question about how someone is doing - similar to how it isn't necessary to mention how many sight words a child has in answer to a general question either.

I can't really speak to whether or not there are downsides to that salary, but I'd be glad to offer myself as a test subject if anyone wants to do a study. :-)

As far as kindergarten how about "we looked at a lot of places and this seemed like a good fit."

I've said that many times, but like no5no5 said, it doesn't end there. There are always follow-up questions (why isn't it a good fit?), and you're back to where you started.

Hey, it wouldn't be a valid study without multiple participants...so I'm in too. Gosh, I hope I don't end up in the control group.

That's when with good friends you trust you explain. With those you don't you say some kind of vague thing like "oh gosh all sorts of reasons, but enough about us, how was your vacation..."

It's here on this forum where many parents find the only people they can trust to understand, so it's troubling when someone is accused of one-up-manship even here.

That's the problem I'm having, too.

I feel strongly that our conversations are healthy and positive. The reason so many of us are happy here is because we are NOT seeing people who act the ways that passthepotatoes is claiming people are acting.

I'm sorry you see it as oneupsmanship or something negative about our kids, passthepotatoes. I definitely think you're off-base. I don't think you're fairly reflecting what we do here, and I feel like you're judging us, on everything from how we feel about our kids to what kind of conversationalists we are. I'm uncomfortable with that--with all of that! I think it's over the line.

If you want to change the entire culture as it relates to milestones, then that's your right. You're entitled to your opinion.

However, your experience and your ready answers don't mesh with my reality.

I'm with Taminy and the others who say that we are happy with what goes on here. It is good for us, good for our kids.

At some point, there are diminishing returns in any disagreement, and I feel like I've hit that point.

And just to echo Taminy, since the "I hope it's okay to say something utterly natural about my child, but I worry that it's not" has already begun on the forum as a result of this thread...

The reason this forum exists is so we can talk about our kids and our jobs as parents! PLEASE do not feel self-conscious about saying what you need/want to say! The best part about this forum is people who understand are here to listen. That hasn't changed!

I see the thread has evolved to discussion of behavior on Internet message boards. To be clear that isn't what I was addressing. Sorry, I haven't read the bragging thread so I certainly wasn't commenting on that. I for one would expect conversations to be a bit different in a "mixed" group IRL than on an anonymous message board online. It is great if folks have found support here or elsewhere online.

I do think it really sad thing for people to feel isolated in real life. Message boards can certainly help bridge the gap, but it isn't the same as having people IRL. I'm sure some of what determines IRL support is luck of the draw or circumstance. Beyond that I don't see why it is a threatening idea to consider maybe there are things we can do as parents of gifted kids to lessen our sense of isolation and to parent in ways that are authentic and comfortable with less risk of alienation of others. What ways can we find to the social parts of parenting besides getting support online? Is it worth considering reshaping a bit the way we think about and talk about our kids? I also think it is worthwhile to spend time thinking about how our kids are affected by the ways we talk about them. If they hear us over and over again defining them as about their precociousness how can that feed perfectionism and feelings of pressure?


Whoa, please back way up. Never said or implied a single negative thing about anyone's kids. And, made it clear that I believe that parents of gifted kids are not any more guilty of the overidentification or discussion of milestones than other parents. My suggestion is that these sorts of discussions aren't working well for lots of kids and lots of parents - thus the need to change.


I'm not in charge of changing the culture any more than you are in charge of giving me permission to do so. I was merely providing food for thought. If you are having a strong reaction maybe it is worth considering why. Take what works and leave the rest. I will say that I don't believe it requires a complete change in our culture for individual parents to consider what role milestones, development, acheivement are playing in how they think about and talk about their kids.

Forgive my cranial density... but I obviously don't understand the premise here. Arguably, we have all succeeded in the first part by finding this and similar on-line AND off-line forums. (I don't know about the others, but the on-line forums are much more convenient, in-depth and informational for me.)

But as for the second part, how exactly are we parenting in ways that are not authentic and comfortable? I've never considered the authenticity of anyone here to be in question. (And no matter how gingerly we step, someone is going to feel alienated... to this I can only say "tough nails.")

When I was growing up (in clustered, self-contained GT throughout school), my parents didn't have any difficulties with peer support, because all the other parents they knew were in the same proverbial boat. There were rarely, if ever, "awkward moments" when milestones were discussed... at least nothing like many here have experienced.

Sadly, our district has run away from clustering like scared little bunny rabbits, clinging instead to their egalitarian notions of hetero- classes. As a result, there've been plenty of uncomfortable situations for us when involved in some sort of discussion about our kids with other parents.

The trouble, though, is that I believe that the parents of GT kids have already reshaped the way we talk about our kids IRL. After all, there's just no polite way to take part in a discussion about milestones when your little one is leaps & bounds above in one way (or several). Instead, the parents who, perhaps, need to do a bit of re-shaping are many of the others... and no, this is not just a slice of "It's always them, never me..."

The discussions we manage to have IRL with other GT parents about our kids are always very natural & matter-of-fact... just like groups of parents w/average kids enjoy with each other, or any other cluster of parents along the spectrum. But in mixed situations, there's gonna be awkward moments for someone no matter how carefully you parse your language.

Discussing milestones is perfectly normal and is every parents way of knowing/confirming that a.) their kid is not a weirdo, or b.) their kid is progressing just fine. I've recently been transcribing 70+ years worth of diaries from a family matriarch that chronicle (almost daily) events from about 1885. And guess what? Plenty of recorded thoughts, observations and so forth about the development of this kid or that. No passing of judgments; just watching the growth of those around her.

Now this is something altogether different. I believe that parents in general (and GT parents especially) are very mindful of how they discuss their kids when the kids are within earshot.

I'm left again with a big question mark rattling about my skull...

Them: "How's your kid doing in math this year, our daughter just got all her math facts memorized up to 5?"

Me: "Yeah, math is hard. Oh, our son is still blond. Did I tell you he stuck a penny in his ear last week? What an idiot, huh? ... Hey -- how 'bout them Giants?"

So maybe I'm not getting this last part of your suggestion. In my mind, milestones, achievement & development are a big part of what makes up any kid.

Now the thing that totally torques me off is that if we had these same conversations involving athletic abilities, parents will high-five themselves until their hands are bloodied, celebrating the accomplishments -- minor and major -- of every kid with relatively few "awkward" moments for anyone. Rarely any hurt feelings no matter how disparate the skill levels. But I suppose that's a topic for another day.

I'd like to invite you all to tea - or maybe a 'gifted beer summit'. .... if only .......

Personally, I find even mentioning where my kids go to school (when asked), sometimes awkward, due to it being a gifted cluster magnet school. On the other hand, I'm so very aware that I'm lucky to have these as my problems - and this site to feel human again!

I do believe that we can encourage or discourage tension in our daily circle of friends by avoiding the milestone conversations.
To be blunt my child is smarter than the other children in my circle, so I am not free to discuss my child's accomplishments. I can either win the one-up game or have friends. I choose the latter, and besides I am proud of their kids and don't want them to feel bad.

I believe that everyone needs a safe outlet & a place to brag without it being percieved as a one-up.
For my best friend that safe place is me....and for me, that safe place can only be here.
It's great to have a place where my kid is normal.
I think you all have wonderful children and I love to hear about them and their amazing abilities!
beer & wine sound devine!

I agree with you, Floradama, what I do is fairly similar to what you do. I want my friends to be proud of their kids in front of me, so in conversations about kids I try to focus on their kids. Plus there are so many other issues that are common to all families that we can talk about. I used to feel that I have no one to talk to about my kids, other than close family. Now it's better as I'm getting to know more people IRL and online. For example, I can safely discuss my DS's math abilities with the math professor that I got to know... We will all figure out what we can say with which group...

About bragging, though. I have seen plenty of parents brag, and I don't think it's related to whether their kids are GT.

Yes! I think that's the piece that is so important. It's only where the challenges that accompany parenting a gifted child are "normal" that those challenges aren't met with skepticism. I've often found that people are receptive to a point, but that the understanding is limited, so the ability to empathize is limited. None of us want to be one of "those" parents, but the very act of puzzling out a problem we are having (especially when the problem is, "my kid has already met and exceeded all the grade level standards, and the school doesn't see this as a problem"), is seen as...I don't know...disingenuous maybe? Covert bragging?

Maybe all gifties should be born to parents who are 100% confident about parenting decisions 99% of the time. Unfortunately, I fall more into the category of 90% confident 80% of the time (and that is perhaps a generous statistical guesstimate!). Meld that with a processing style that is primarily oral (including espeech and other expressive writing of course)and I need a community with the stamina to let me talk out all of my unanswered kid questions.

Hmmm....as I write this I am thinking that we have fallen into an all-or-nothing description of our interactions with other parents and friends. I talk about my kids IRL too--but it is usually about those aspects of their lives with which there is a lot of common ground--the "yay!" of watching DS go through an entire baseball inning without stopping to draw intricate designs in the dirt (of course with a ball sailing over his head unnoticed); DD's hurt feelings when she isn't chosen as a lunch buddy; our camping trip and the fun DD and DS had rock hopping in the river and skipping stones; the awesome books we are enjoying for read aloud...

Those conversations are easy to have IRL, mainly b/c there is an easy reciprocity in the sharing and an ability to appreciate, empathize or sympathize with the ups, downs, and oh-so-funnies. It's just that there is this one part of who my children are that I also need to talk about, and I need to do it here, where my kids' experiences seem more "normal". Where I can learn from the experiences of others who have wrestled with the same questions and challenges; where I don't worry about a mental eye roll (Although now that I think about it, maybe that should be an icon!)and I don't feel a need to "balance" my child's strengths with a weakness when I talk about them as people. I'm thinking that perhaps saying we are "proud of" our children is an inaccurate use of language. Maybe what we're really talking about is admiration. I admire many of the things that my children do and say, just as I admire many of the things that others do and say. The difference is, that while it is socially acceptable to discuss what you admire about others, it is socially suspect to discuss what you admire about your own child. Except here. So again, thank goodness for here!

Nice post, Taminy! When a discussion becomes more heated people tend to take more extreme stands, but in the end I think they are often simply stressing the two sides of the same thing. Beer and wine will be good...

I just want to say that this forum has been a real turning point in my life! It has been the first place that I can discuss my DS7 and DS5 where I feel that people are understanding and supportive. It has helped DH and I to make some major decisions regarding DS7's acceleration - things that I couldn't even discuss with my closest friends or relatives. I, like a lot of others, find discussing my DS with friends very hard. A lot of people just assume that he is drilled and made to study at home - they can't understand that a kid like him can be self-driven or that he can achieve what he has (now I hope that no-one perceives this as bragging - or am I being paranoid now )

This forum is a place where my DS is normal and I am so grateful for it!

Just want to add that I remember the support I got from this forum a while ago when DS was treated unfairly at school (he finished his math worksheet very quickly, and the teacher said "I know you are good but no one can be this good" and suspected DS of cheating of some sort). Some fo the replies brought me to tears. For me, this forum provides lots of information, and also a place where my frustration gets understood. I can be proud of my kids quietly, but being able to vent frustration is great. So thanks everyone, I appreciate all of you and your differing views!

My original point exactly re finding the right audience. In this environment I don't have to choose. In other environments you are correct that in hindsight I have learned to censure for the sake of feelings and friendships. I certainly use a measure restraint when discussing DD now that I did not in the early year or so of her life. My original point was that I do not think that this is something that comes naturally. I think most parents (and maybe you are the exception) have an innate desire to talk about their children especially around other parents. I do not think that this makes me a horrible conversationalist or a shallow bore that has no life outside of her children. Somehow I manage to have great conversations with people that do not have children. It is just a simple fact that when I am with other parents we talk a lot about our children--potty training, the elusive nature of sleep, play groups, schools, sports, and sometimes achievement/milestone issues come up. When they do come up I can sometimes avoid uncomfortable moments and others I cannot no mater how hard I try. For example, just last night I was asked what preschool DD was going to next year. I said she is starting kindergarten. I did not add early or state where in an effort to stop the conversation in its tracks because I could see where it was headed. My answer prompted several follow up questions--isn't she only 4, why are you starting her early, is this wise.

My initial point was that having to self-censure to avoid making someone else feel bad or to avoid an uncomfortable situation makes me feel isolated at times. Isolated because I cannot share everything that I would like to about what is going on in my life and my child's life. For example, this year we agonized over whether to start DD a year early in school. I could not talk about this with my best friend from college because she was struggling with whether to hold her son back a year. I recognized that it would insensitive to discuss the pros and cons of starting DD early when my friend was facing the opposite issue.

Finding this place online (although in the past I have primarily been a lurker) and my local gifted parents group has enabled me to speak freely about my DD. I need the support and the feeling that I am not alone because many days I find it all exhausting. I realize that having a gifted child is a "high class problem to have" and for that very reason I need a place where I feel that I am understood and not judged. I am thankful to have found such a place and believe that it will make me a better parent in the end.

It is different strokes for different folks and I have no problem with your views. I am comfortable with my parenting style and with myself as a person. Being a parent is a big part of who I am and a part that I feel is nurtured by being able to share some stories with like-situated parents.

It is a pretty common theme voiced on forums like this by parents of gifted kids. Feeling like they can't be themselves, feeling like they can't enjoy their kids, feeling like they need to put their kids down, etc.


That's great. It has been my observation that even just within the PG community folks are in totally different boats because kids needs vary so much depending on drive, personality, disabilities, family resources, etc.

I don't believe friends all have to be in the same boat to support each other or find support.


I would assume most of us now realize how really limiting it it is to try to understand the range of child development by what we see expressed by 15 kids at playgroup. Understanding even just the bare minimum about child development points out why this is a bad idea and can lead to a lot of confusion and misunderstandings.

must get out the door, more later...

I question that there really are "average" kids. Lots of kids have some degree of asynchrony and most parents of typically developing kids worry about their kids too. Even in GT circles there can be tension as kids vary widely in what they need and parents can feel defensive for decision to accelerate or avoid acceleration for that matter.


There are lots of ways to be compassionate and engaged in conversation without joining in calling your children names. If there isn't then time to move on to a different conversation. Genuinely caring about other people means there are possibilities of connecting even the experience is not exactly the same.

How you would respond would have a lot to do with other bits of information not contained in the example - Is this a close friend? Is this the first you've heard about this from a random stranger? Is this a person who regularly complains about her kids? Depending on the situation appropriate answers might be "It is great she's making progress, I know it has been tough to get there", "math was never my thing either", "I'm not a huge fan of the math curriculum, what do you think about it?" "it is hard to see our kids struggle with stuff isn't it?" "math can be so frustrating - is she still loving soccer she really burns up the field doesn't she?"


So, if you had a child who was significantly developmentally delayed would you then define them as having less parts? Would you find less about them to love, care or be interested in? Is there no way in your mind to love a person separate from what they achieve?

Part of what I'm questioning is if this is really a unique problem to the gifted world. Most of us wouldn't flash the big raise when a friend just got laid off. Or, brag on about how we are in the best shape of our lives when a stranger just got diagnosed with diabetes. Part of having social manners is learning to alter what you say based on the audience. I suspect that is something all parents do at some point.


That is a particularly tough situation, but I would say that as time goes on I would hope you find that you can open up to some friends. Most of my close friends IRL are not facing similar situations but we are still there for each other. Friends who have known you for a long time may get it more than you think they do even if it is not at all the problem they are facing.

Ha! You mean you don't "hot-box" your kid to make him do the stuff he does? We actually had a few parents accuse us of such a thing... pretty irritating to say the least.

I think (hope) you mean "hot house"?

Nope. Too poor for the house; could only afford the box.

Way too scared to Google!

I didn't even need to google.

Parents with children who have disabilities also refer to milestones. We were all very proud and boastful when my little brother finally wrote his name. It did not matter that most kids could do this years before him, we were just proud that he reached the goal.

I think there is a difference in being proud because your child accomplished something and being proud because he acomplished something faster than someone else.

And, a difference between accomplishments that come through lots of hard work and ones that come with just as a part of the natural process of development.

Hmmm. Yet I think that we can also appreciate and embrace the things that come naturally. We are, all of us, part nature and part nurture. We are not only what we accomplish, we are also just "us". And I guess it can be argued that since we had no hand in what we are by nature, that those parts aren't comment-worthy. But...I can't look at it that way. Whether you want to look at it as miracle, scientific wonder, or what not, we are all so different in the way that all those little genes come together. I would hate to think that the only things I celebrated about my children are the things that they work to accomplish. I celebrate and share natural milestones for the same reason that I celebrate and share birthdays--they are a way of paying attention to the way my children change and grow over time.

As my DD turned 10 this past week, I experienced a deep melancholy. It is a beautiful thing to watch her grow into an increasingly confident person, willing to try on/wear signs of individuality in public. I don't know that she has worked hard to reach that point, but it has been a definite journey. Watching her though, I am also touched by a sense of loss. She has put many milestones behind her and I simultaneously love who she is now and miss who she was then. Observing her birthday slows me down and reminds me to stop and notice this passage of time. Every milestone she has hit along the way has served the same purpose. No, they did not take some unique effort on her part, yes they were part of natural development, and yes...they were worth noticing and sharing. The fact that children have been learning to walk and talk for thousands of years is a fact about the world, not a fact about her. In her life, those milestones were unique moments that I greeted with both excitement and a bit of sadness. I greeted those milestones in my son's life with those same feelings, and with no sense of "been there, done that". His journey was just as magical to me as hers was.

There's the saying that when one door closes another opens, but when it comes to watching my children grow and change, I think I experience that in reverse. I celebrate the door that is opening, but I also take a moment to notice the one that has just closed.

Those moments are therefore emotional and precious to me. They are moments I want to share, because they are strong moments, big moments that I WANT to share. I don't care if those milestones/moments happen "relatively early", "on time" or "relatively late". Are they accomplishments? Even if almost everyone evenually does it? Well...even when our kids reached milestones early, I think they still took effort. Natural progression or not, learning to sit up, scoot, walk, talk, or read does not occur by magic--it occurs after our little one (and sometimes not so little one)becomes motivated, developed, and persistant enough to make it so!

Sigh...I keep thinking I'm done sharing what I have to share on this thread, yet here I am prattling on again Oh well. Someday maybe I'll learn the art of communicating concisely in one post--and then we can all celebrate MY milestone!

Oh my. I wonder if THC would help the little guy relax? Too funny.

One family we spend time with more than most have a daughter the same age as our son who is two year back as she needed to repeat a grade. The kids have a blast together & we get along well with the parents just fine. There was definitely the initial awkwardness when our guy skipped ahead... and the parents kept asking us what we did to help him along. (These were not any of the offensive ones who suggested hot-HOUSING.) They were honestly trying to see if there was anything they could do to help their child.

Now that we are past the initial "discovery," though, we still talk about various achievements, accomplishments, etc... rarely in contrast -- just in relation to each child individually.

I think I'm assuming a broader definition of "boat." Of course one can define it so narrowly such that every child has his own boat... but I wasn't.

By virtue of having nearly all of my peers in that "boat" of the "self-contained GT program," all the parents enjoyed a very comfortable peer group. Clearly, every child was at a different level within the GT program, but there was rarely an opportunity for uncomfortable/awkward GT vs non-GT contrasts to surface. We also had a tremendously diverse group of kids who came from every conceivable background.

And, no, parents do not have to necessarily be in the GT-Community in order to find friendship and support... although sharing support is arguably easier within the "community."

Well... there are certainly kids who are below average... and above average... so why would it not follow that some are smack-dab-in-the-middle average? I was not using the label as a pejorative. It was simply another track of students at the school.

I don't often pull the "I got a niece who is severely DD" card, but your from-far-left-field question kinda invites it. I also have an employee in his 30's who is has DS, and functions at a 10yo level, if that. He's been on staff for several years now. A close friend of my wife has a child who suffered severe brain damage as an infant and will never walk, talk, see or anything else for that matter. Each of these kids has his own developmental achievements and milestones that are celebrated by their family and friends.

So, no -- I wouldn't stoop to the crass suggestion that a SDD child has less to love, care about or be interested in... and I suspect that none of the thousands upon thousands of posts within this GT-Community even come close to such.

I've never seen anything here that approaches that sentiment. I certainly wouldn't consider this aspect of our social interaction to be unique. Diplomacy, discretion, empathy & good ol' common sense are required in most any social situation, right?

But the examples you provide (raise vs. lay-off; great health vs. diabetes) aren't really analogous to our situation given that no GT-parent would consider "non-GT" to be a detriment of any sort. Whereas lay-offs and diabetes are reasonably considered detrimental in comparison to their counterparts.

While I would easily say, "Gee, it really sucks that you got laid-off, Bob!" I would never, EVER say, "Gee, it really sucks that your kid can't solve trig problems in his head."

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

I got a little testy with one teacher because she refused to give an academic award to our son for math because she felt he didn't have to work as hard as the others to accomplish what he did. I didn't push it, but I was really steamed by the notion that his achievement somehow didn't count and didn't deserve recognition simply because he expended less effort in reaching the goal.

What a heck of a thing to teach a child.

I really like this analogy. DD3 learned to hop on one foot the other day (yes, after much hard work), and it was such a joy to her and to the family when she finally figured it out. I have no idea whether she's early or late or average. That simply does not matter.

But no, we haven't shared it outside of the family, simply because we don't really see why others would be interested. I guess that sort of makes (part of) your point, passthepotatoes. But I nonetheless am interested in the milestones of my friends' babies (even though I've long forgotten what is "normal" timing, and don't keep track of how old the babies are anyway) because it seems like one of the only ways to communicate with/about a child who is not yet verbal. I think this sort of thing can be totally appropriate in some contexts.

There seems to me, to be two main themes here 1- yes, consideration of others, but secondly, just a frustration that this rule applies to us, more than others. I see FB as a typical example. Nobody blinks an eye - and in fact it is quite lovely to learn about the successes of my friends children in baseball, dance recitals and swimming. These successes are not simply earned by hard work, but also due to innate ability. The rules change though, when we talk about academic achievements. To assume that the success of our children is just due to their I.Q., in academic challenges, chess etc. is doing them an injustice, and would never be accepted in other fields. In fact, this lack of appreciation may somewhat account, in part, for the high drop-out rate of gifted children.
Remembering school, both my brother and myself went to great lengths to hide our intelligence. I certainly do not condone full on bragging by anyone, but kids pick up more than we expect, and an absence of discussion about things that they have worked for, just because a certain level of I.Q. is also required for the field, is to me, a frustrating double- standard in this society.

So, are you saying if you post a picture of your kid at the science fair or orchestra or whatever geeky activity that people will be unsupportive or resent hearing about it - but if it was soccer it would be fine?

A lot of people see it as different to brag about the precociousness of when your child mastered sentences because they recognize this is a pretty natural process for most kids and that the range of when it happens is in the long run not particularly significant.

You've got it - your use of the word 'geeky' already implies lack of support.

Oh - and most kids can hit a ball, kind of dance, and swim. These are pretty natural processes for most kids and the range of when it happens is in the long run not particularly significant.

My kids weren't particularly early talkers by the way, but I had no problem with learning about others, and in fact enjoyed being amazed at how different babies could be.

This really isn't a big issue with me now-a-days, I've learnt the rules, and have wonderful friends that support my family. I do think though, if this message board helps some parents deal with feelings of isolation - isn't that wonderful?

I need some help. We are a military family that has recently retired. My 12 year old daughter has been tested in 5 different school districts and been identified as Gifted and Talented in all of them. Some have great programs for GT, some have good programs for GT, and some school systems have no GT program at all. Now we are retired and in Northern Virginia for the next 6 years at least, hopefully more.

Here's my problem: The last school system didn't have a GT program. So, they took my 6th grade daughter and placed her in advanced 7th grade math (pre-algebra). This year, the school system has an "in school pull out" program once a week called "Signet" but they don't want to place my daughter in Algebra, because Algebra is 8th grade math! So, I'm frustrated. Her grades in 7th grade AP math were so-so (81% for the year), but she passed pre-Algebra and should be moving into Algebra. The school administrators are saying that she has to take 7th grade pre-Algebra and point to her medicore grades to justify their decision. She's GT and will be bored stiff if she retakes this math class.

Here's my question: As parents and other associated with GT, do you agree with the school's decision? If so, why do you agree?

If you don't agree, can you please provide me some solid points to make with the school superintendent (whom I suspect will back the school's position) other than "She's already taken pre-Algebra." It seems like a simple and logical arguement to me; that if a student transferring in has already passed a class they move on to the next level; but something isn't clicking with the school administrators and I want to act in my daughter's best interests.

Please advise.

That's only true if you lack geek pride. Geek is a positive form of identification in our family and that was the way in which I used the word.


I may have gotten the wrong impression from the earlier post. I thought it was talking about successes in the form of activities students chose to work at and be involved in such as training with the baseball team or preparing for recitals. To me that would be the functional equivalent of something like preparing for the science fair. Both of these activities suggest a level of involvement beyond - the more natural milestone of kicked the ball or spoke a two word sentence. I was curious if people see a different level of freedom of discussing things like the science fair versus the soccer team.


Hopefully a great beginning to bridging to more IRL support too.

Here's my question: As parents and other associated with GT, do you agree with the school's decision? If so, why do you agree?

Just on the face of things I would say no that I do not agree. It seems that your daughter passed the class and has likely mastered the material. I think that she would be bored repeating it again. Do you have achievement test scores in math or something similar to point to that would establish the fact that she excels in math. Also a letter from her former pre-algebra math teacher at her old school stating that based on her observations of having your daughter in class there would be no benefit to her repeating that class over again might help. You might also want to gather some information together about the general benefits of accelerating a gifted child. The school would not hold back a child that got an 81% in math and essentially that is what they are doing with your child. Again, I think I would just try to gather as much "proof" as you can that your daughter is ready to move on and try to convince them that the grade itself is not the whole story. There must have been a reason that your daughter was accelerated in the first place and I would start there and move forward. Good luck!

81 is a B right? Is a B now universally considered mediocre? Traditionally B meant a student mastered material and was achieving well. A meant exceptionally high acheivement.

Thanks for the sanity check. I did provide them with the WISC III, a COGAT, a STAR (CA), and an OAT (OH) tests/standardized tests. All of the test results ID her as high IQ, high ability, and high achievement. It seems with these administrators, the grade is carrying the most weight.....When did 81% become a failing grade????

I'll let you know how it shakes out.

In this school system, an 81% is a C, it's not a "B-" until 84%

A couple of questions you might pose to the district:

1) Is the 7th grade math they would put her in comparable to an AP level pre-Algebra?

If the class is not comparable (slower paced, less breadth or depth) then you might point out that it's problematic to base the decision on her previous score, since that score represents her handling of more complex/difficult material.

2) Is there a minimum acheivement score that their seventh graders need to earn in order to advance (as 8th graders)to algebra? In other words, if she finished this year with an 81% in their 7th grade class, would that prevent her from taking algebra as an 8th grader. If not, you can raise the question as to why they are concerned about her ability to keep up with the class.

3) You might ask whether their policy would have been the same if the previous school had grade accelerated her rather than subject accelerated her. Would they require that she repeat her 7th grade year?

4) You might ask whether or not the district has an end of the year test for 7th grade math. If so, you could request that your DD be allowed to take the test and that the results be used to determine whether or not there are weaknesses evident across the 7th grade math curriculum, or only in 1-2 targeted areas (in which case a quick remediative approach could be taken).

How does your DD feel about all of this? Did she finish last year feeling confident that she was ready to go on to the next level in math, or is she feeling shaky about it?

Sorry to hear that you're starting off having to struggle with your new district. I hope the situation resolves quickly--and positively. Good luck!

Maybe the issue to explore is why she got an 81% in the first instance. Was it failure to show all her work (a common issue with gifted kids who skip steps but arrive at the right answer), sloppy mistakes that had nothing to do with mastery of the material but rather lack of attention to detail, or a failure to complete all assignments. These are things that can be "worked" on at any level and repeating the same material would be of no benefit. I think your best chance is to get her former teacher to explain that she is ready to move on despite the grade, if in fact this is the case.

I think the main reason that she scored so "low" (81%) is that she was doing some pre-Algebra as a 5th grader, but we changed schools the summer between 5th and 6th.....New school, new cirriculum, new school structure (Middle School) and she was on a varsity sports team. There were a lot of changes, a good number of stressors, some cirriculum building blocks didn't match between the school systems, and other factors that contributed to her limited success.

Eventually, there developed a quasi-advesarial relationship between the teacher and my daughter because my daughter tended to ask A LOT of questions. Intially the math teacher recommended that my daughter advance to Algebra, then changed her mind about 3 weeks before the end of school.

At the end of the day, I want to act in my daughter's best interests.....Would it kill her to repeat pre-Algebra? Probably not, and there may be some benefits as well. But she did work hard and she DID pass the class afterall.....She is eager to please and thrives on the recognition that she associates with being bright and smart and recognized for her academic abilities. Repeating the class could create a ripple effect that will dampen her thrist for that recognition and allow her to make an excuse to be of average academic ability. This is tricky and I don't want to make a mistake that would limit her in the future.

What are the potential pitfalls if she repeats the class? I don't want to project on her; maybe she would welcome a "breather" in her academic schedule.....Although she did start to cry a few tears when she heard the counselor say that she would be repeating the class because of her grade and because "they only teach Algebra to 8th graders...."

Exactly.
Success through hard work. Wonderful.
But in reality it's not like that. Children at a young age are put in baseball, ballet, swimming etc., and, with no extra work being put in, (which is fine at a young age), are 'celebrated' for if they have natural ability, and their achievements bragged about. - I'm even talking 3 year olds here - I'm pretty sure they're not working any more than the early talker.
I'm not saying parents should 'brag' about either group, just that the one form is accepted - and even encouraged, whilst the other isn't.

The 81% was her end of year grade, but her achievement and ability tests place her in the top 3 percentile of math ability.

I will find out from the Superintendent when I hear back from her if there are other (on-line, individual tutoring, etc) options.

I don't know what the issues are.....the only one articulated is that the 8th graders classrooms are in a seperate hallway from the 7th graders and that the 7th and 8th grade lunch periods are different. I guess it boils down to logistics for the school at the expense of the student.

If it were me I think I would fight pretty hard for Algebra. I think it sounds like she is ready. She needs to feel challenged. I think girls especially at her age all too often get pushed out of the math and science areas. She has the ability and should be allowed to reach her full potential. Logistics are just that, they can be worked out.

Still waiting for the Superintendant to return my phone call....I guess this is a reflection of what I can expect

I might spend some time today researching the charter schools in the area. We can't afford private school this year, maybe it will be an option next year.

I'll let you know when I know. Thanks.