Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment math dolt or not

Hi,
some of you may remember me from 2 to 3 years ago. i have an 11 year old son, Mite, who is gifted and learning disabled.

we need some help getting ready for his 3 year eval and transition into middle school. the first thing we need to understand is the discrepancies on his WISC IV (VCI 138, PRI 92) and whether or not that means he's "delayed" in math.

See, we contend he is gifted in math, but his dyspraxic handwriting difficulties and his severe sensory issues interfere with the learning and expressing his knowledge. However, the district employees insist he is not gifted in math but just has a "good vocabulary".

On the Scantron Performance tests, we have seen Language Arts scores as high as 99th percentile, but he varies from fall to winter to spring. In math we have seen him score as low as 35 and as high as 98th percentile.

The district employees think that 98th percentile is "just one score" and as such is a fluke. We contend that is what he is capable of and the district is failing to provide adequate rigor to allow him to maintain the knowledge.

Also, it is my understanding that a child who scores above 130 on either the VCI or PRI is gifted. VCI and PRI both measure intelligence and the PRI does not measure mathematics knowledge. The VCI is also not an indicator of vocabulary but rather the subject's ability to comprehend the world verbally.

So, help me. First of all am I off in my understanding of these things. If so, please explain it to me. Then does a one time score on the standardized Scantron of 98%ile represent a "fluke" or does it represent a lack of rigor?


thanks,
Willagayle

From what I understand, each state and district have their own standard and proceedure to identify gifted students. The type of instruction you are wanting your son to recieve also changes when he enters middle school. It is possible to be in the gifted curriculum for language arts/humanities and not take advance math courses.

http://www.cde.state.co.us/gt/download/pdf/TwiceExceptionalResourceHandbook.pdf

If you look at page 20 on the above link, I think it may give you an idea of how Colorado identifies students who's scores vary on the WISC.


I've heard this to mean "that is what level a child performs at, on that day, like a snapshot and not the whole entire picture"

Hi. I am the parent of an almost 11 year old son with motor dyspraxia and sensory issues. I remember reading some of your posts and thinking your son sounded similar to mine.

I have homeschooled my son since he finished Kindergarten because the Kindergarten teacher thought he should go to a transitional first grade (a year in between kindergarten and first grade) the next year so he could learn to color in the lines better. She didn't think he needed to learn anything at all the next year. I talked to a first grade teacher and mom of gifted sons and showed her samples of my son's work and asked for her advice. She was working on a degree in special ed at the time. She told me I would need to homeschool my son because she believed he was most likely highly gifted and he would not get the education he needed at that school. She made it sound like it would almost be child abuse to let him continue going to that school. Because my son was reading at about a 5th grade level when he started Kindergarten at age 5 and doing some multiplication and division, he was not eligible for OT for his handwriting issues. Children have to be at a point where they are failing before they are eligible for help with a disability and he was able to work above grade level in everything except those things requiring good motor skills. We explained to his teacher that he had hypotonia, which is all we knew that he had at the time, and it didn't make a difference. There are no exceptions to the rules. Children like mine are discriminated against and not given help for disabilities if they are too smart and that is just the way it is and I had to accept it.

I homeschooled for a year and let him do math mostly with computer games and I think he looked at a math dictionary that I actually bought for me because I was afraid I might have forgotten a few things. When he took the WIAT the month he turned seven and should have just finished first grade he tested at a fourth grade level and the educational psychologist told me he thought he could have gone higher if he would have used a pencil and paper to figure out the answers, but he refused and he was getting tired. After that test I let him use fourth grade math materials and he was actually able to do just fine with fourth grade math except I had to let him do fewer problems because of his handwriting issues. One multi-digit multiplication or division problem would take up a whole page. Luckily they didn't test his coloring or shoe tying abilities. They did test his spelling by having him write the words. He could have kept going if his hands hadn't started hurting but I guess there are no accommodations for that kind of thing on the WIAT. He only tested slightly above grade level in spelling because his hands got tired, but I know he could have tested much higher if they had let him continue orally.

My son is doing 8th grade math now and he rarely makes errors. I finally let him use the calculator more this year and this really helps him. He still uses a lot of mental math though because it is sometimes faster for him than keying in the numbers on the calculator. He only writes what he absolutely has to and I am sometimes amazed at how little he writes and still comes up with the correct answer. But if he were in our public school they would say he is not gifted in math because he would take twice as long to do a math worksheet as other kids because of handwriting issues and they would not let him work at his level.

My son's vocabulary and comprehension and general knowledge seem to be at a higher level than his math ability, and people have told us for years that he talks like an adult. I don't think my son is as gifted in math as he is in other things but I still think he is gifted in math no matter what anyone else says. He just has to work around his handwriting issues and this might make him appear to be slower in math if he is required to show his work and do a lot of writing. When he is allowed to compensate by doing math his way, he is able to do so much more.

Hi Dottie,
I remember you!:^)

Mite's struggles in math really do seem to be related to his inability to tend to task during lectures and his inability to write what he is thinking. When allowed to verbally explain his answers, or have dictate to a scribe, Mite's math tests and papers are nearly 100% average (99.2% actually). When handwriting it is closer to 60% average. We've actually plotted his grades on excel and seen this pan out with over 90 samples total. So, we have pretty decent evidence the dyspraxia is interfering with expression.

We found the discrepancy between the PRi and VCI scores to be a bit dismaying, too, but now 3 years from those scores we are convinced his attention issues and his hands greatly interfered with his testing...especially his hands. We are certain, from subsequent testing, that he would have been unable to adequately manipulate the block design even if he did understand how to do it. We are certain also, that any written portion of the test--like on the PSI coding stuff--would have been distorted by the severe motor planning problems.

See we feel, from both working intensely with our son in all aspects of learning, that his giftedness is global and that his mathematics performance is greatly impacted by his inability to write and the school district's inability to accomodate his writing delay in math. We do fel he is gifted in math. My husband is very advanced in mathematics and he feels in his work with Mite that he displays extremely advanced ability. This isn't just a proud parent or pushy parent thing. We are truly concerned the district is pulling him down in math by refusing to accomodate his disability to give him access to the currculum.

This is from a FAQ for the MAP test but it may help explain the differences in scores and why the lower score is more likely to be a fluke than the higher score.

http://www.nwea.org/support/details.aspx?content=1024

Thank you.
That's what my husband (PhD in science field) says. He says that the score is the dependent variable and the intelligence or knowledge is the independent variable and to get the high scoes one must think what confounding factors could impact the test to yield a high score. Really cheating is not possible as the child had a 1:1 proctor, unless the proctor cheated. My son said she didn't speak to him the entire time.

The test is a very robust test. So one would assume the chance of guessing that many right would be phenomenally low.

However, lots of confounding variables can bring about low scores...distractibilty, physical disability, temperature of room, noise, boredom...it is endless.

The things that can deflate a score could have an even bigger impact if overexcitabilities are an issue. Here's a good explanation of overexcitabilties if you're not familiar with the term.

http://www.sengifted.org/articles_social/Lind_OverexcitabilityAndTheGifted.shtml

Have you asked your son if he has any insight about the differences in the test results? Maybe there's something he can identify that's different about the test taking when he got a high score vs. when he got a low score.