Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional IDing dyslexia early? Who and how?

I know I keep dipping a toe into this subject and then letting it drop, but I get more and more convinced with each passing day that DS4 has a 2E issue. He has all the intensity and perfectionism of a PG child, but without any of the PGness showing.

He seems like a perfectly average kid--if an overly sensitive and perfectionistic child--to his pre-K teacher, and he would to me, too...except for the fact that he is very verbal and loves books but won't look at them, loves to write but does it backwards pretty much all the time and not on purpose, is very visual but has some visual immaturity in how he perceives things... All this screams 2E to me.

Lately I have been thinking that dyslexia might be a/the problem, but I don't know enough about it to get evidence that might support or counter my theory. Aside from the fact that he writes pretty much everything from right to left instead of left to right, I don't know what to look for in a kid who isn't yet reading. (Though he can sound out words like a pro if I point to the letters. But hand him a beginning reader book and he wants no part of it.)

I suspect a dyslexia expert would simply "there-there" me and send me on my way for another year or two because "4yos can't read, crazy lady." So I think I need more info and more specific evidence. I believe I have read everything about dyslexia that has crossed this forum in the past year, but it all seems to say that dyslexia can't/shouldn't be diagnosed this early.

Can anyone point me in the right direction of what dyslexia might look like in a GT 4yo? To what sort of expert should I turn for help? We have a Developmental Optometrist. Is this something he can help with?

Our pediatrician already "there-there'd" me about the vision issues, so I'm loathe to ask him about this one. I know he'd just tell me to wait because 4yos can't read.

Or perhaps would our psychologist who tested DS7 (and whom I like and respect very much!) be the person to talk to?

I'm really feeling like I need someone to hold my hand through this mess. I have no idea what we're dealing with, and I can't help feeling like "wait and see" is wasting time that we could be using to help DS4 to get past whatever problem he has. I'd love to hear that he's just an average, ND kid, but my gut tells me that's not what's going on. Everything about him screams GT except for the fact that he does pretty much nothing that looks academically GT...

I'm in one of my worried phases!

Thanks, gang! I appreciate whatever you can give me.

Hi, Kriston,

I'd go with a call to the psych you like. I'd have to think he or she would be the best person to guide you.

Hi Kriston,
My DS6 is the same way. He wants nothing to do with written language yet it can't be fine motor skills because he can construct with legos and screws/screwdrivers as well as other tiny operations. He reverses so many letters and reads the same way. I asked the psych when he tested him and he told me that since he tested high everywhere but written language to start from scratch on spelling and writing. What??? Anyways thanks for the post because I am so curious what others have to say. I know it is "common" for my son's age to do what he is doing but still if he is so far ahead in all the other areas doesn't that point to a problem??? Thanks for the post.

He rhymed pretty well, Dottie, but definitely not perfectly. He had the most trouble with end sounds of t & d, and with vowel sounds with r. For example, I said "bat" and he got "hat," but he also said "had." I said "bar" and he got "car" but also said "her."

Hmmm...

His speech was early. But if he's HG+, I'm not sure if that tells us much.

He doesn't mix up sounds. He did say "apple people" for pineapple when he was first learning to talk. But nothing memorable since then.

He does sometimes stutter/clutter a bit, especially when he's excited or distracted and trying to talk fast. It doesn't seem like he does it an unusual amount to me though. It's not something that has worried or troubled me, though my DH sometimes gives DS4 a hard time about it (and I glare at DH!).

If he reads a word on one page, he won't know it on the next page. Guaranteed.

He has directionality confusion with letters (like b vs. p), though many 4yos do, so I put less stock in that one than I might if he were older.

No ear infections ever.

He can't yet tie his shoes, but he's only 4.

His bedroom is a mess and he cannot clean it even a little without help. Totally helpless.

No problems at all with relationship words (over, before, etc.), immature speech or hand dominance, but he does have trouble with yesterday and tomorrow.

I don't know about telling time, yet, Dottie. I haven't really worked with him on it because he hasn't shown any interest in the clock. (Problems with taking a child-led tack...) Time is a big problem with him. He makes DS7 look like Speedy Gonzales when it comes to getting ready for bed, getting dressed, etc.

The bold parts in the following section really made DH and I sit up and take notice:
That's DS4!

I haven't read "The Mislabeled Child" yet, but it's absolutely next on my list. As soon as it comes in at the library for me, it's mine.

I'm thinking I'm right to look into it, aren't I?

Have you thought of a nuerodevelopmental (behavioral) Optometrist?

Yes, he has one already. He IDd the "visual immaturity" that I mentioned, but has not yet suggested therapy or any specific diagnosis. He did prescribe glasses for reading, which DS4 wears religiously, even in pre-K.

I'm just not sure he's the guy for this or not. Is he?

Thanks for the tips, Dottie. It does help to have something to read and actual symptoms to compare, rather than just my "something seems off" gut reaction. No one seems to put much stock in that for some reason...



Our parent-teacher conference with the pre-K teacher is this week. I was hoping to enlist her help in looking for symptoms (or examples that show that he doesn't have the symptoms!), but I really do need to know what to ask her about. This helps.

I've been thinking some more about this:



Does anyone know of a way to tease this apart? I know nothing about this aspect of dyslexia.

I can think of ways in which DS4 might have auditory processing issues--freezes up if given too many oral directions, the rhyming problem, etc.--but I can also see that he might have a visual problem--not looking at books, writing backwards, etc.

Any helpful hints about figuring out which form he might be dealing with? This thread (and everyone who has posted!) has already been so helpful, I'm pushing my luck and asking for more!

Thanks, MON. I confess, I got a little overwhelmed by that site. Looks like maybe I need to underwhelm myself and try again...



This article is very helpful for allowing me to use correct terms and ID just what exactly he seems to be doing:
http://www.ldonline.org/article/6376

A lot of this stuff is very confusing to me. I know just enough to be wrong...

Just sent you a PM Kriston.

Thanks, Jool!

hey kriston..... I am dyslexic, actually, graphlexic... I can't write, hand to paper it looks like alphabet soup. Thank god for computers! lol

Because I am an artist I have met a lot other dyslexics (apparently we dominate the field...lol) Unfortunately, each persons dyslexia manifests differently. So It hard to get straight answers.

I saw that someone mentioned something about the brain, larger right side. I know in my case the language centers in both lobes of my brain are the same size. Also I am ambidextrous. When I was a kid I would mirror write. Also I spoke backward and had trouble understanding what was being said to me very often.

I have heard this from a bunch of my dyslexic friends, we all had inconsistency with IQ tests. One would say genius, the next would say Developmentally Disabled. Most of these people grew to be pretty normal as adults, and did great in college. (As normal as artist get....lol)

One other thing, me and every one of my friends had server headaches that started when we became teenagers. If he does have it it's something to be mindful of.

I hope this helps in some way.

Interesting. Thanks for the perspective.

Is there anything you'd recommend for trying to ID what's up with my son?

Hi Kriston,
If you recall, all four of my kids are twice exceptional. Two of them with dyslexia. Two things I would do to ID someone this early are:

1) Go to an audiologist who is trained in identifying and interpreting a thorough testing (not screening)for auditory processing disorder. (-not a standard hearing test, as you may know). My experience has taught me that all audiologist claim they are trained for this, but they are not. So, it takes some digging. You may want to contact a pediatric ENT for a referral.

2) If there is a good neuropsychologist, I'd have a testing done. It needs to be as comprehensive as possible for someone this age. They are kind of pricy. Use this same person to help devise a plan to "fill in the holes" using the strengths found. The neuropsychs in my experience understand how to interpret results from everyone (audiologist, opthamologist, neurologist, etc) and can help plan out a strategy.

Hope this helps.

I'm getting advice to see a neuropsychologist from 3 sides now, including a friend who is "in the business" (you know who you are! ) and our psychologist/tester, who initially suspects CAPD based just on our quick phone conversation.

Since I happen to have a friend in town who is a pediatric neuropsych, I'm going to call him tonight to just check with him informally about what to do, who to see, etc. I did have a brief conversation with him about it earlier this year, and he didn't seem very encouraging that this was the route for us to take. But I have been looking for more specific evidence about just what's going on with DS4, and I think I have more to tell him.

Apparently there is a nearly year-long wait to meet with the neuropsychs in our area, so it's probably good that I'm starting now.

Thanks, all!

Is he left-handed? I'm asking because of the description of writing right to left.

My left-handed younger brother went through a phase where he wrote everything backwards. Learning reading can also be more difficult in English because of the direction.

There was a Lefty's association, that provided pamphlets on adjustments sometimes needed to pick up reading and writing. I don't remember its exact name.

Good luck.

Jess1,
Thanks for mentioning this. DD6 is a lefty and wrote many things backwards for a time. I'll look for the association.

No, DS4 doesn't seem to be a lefty. He decided on a hand at a pretty normal time, too, so I don't think he's having any confusion.

(I am watching to be sure though...)

Hi Kriston, no great advice here, just sympathy for the confusing 'trying to figure it out' time you are having. We are sort of in the same boat with ds8, all school grades, etc. look ok, most testing results are very confusing, my gut says he is gt + something else, and as I posted in another thread the developmental pediatrician was *almost* no help.
I am going to post to another thread my current woes, and some test results, but want to at least say, 'hang in there!'.
I am glad you are checking this out for your ds, it is too bad it will likely be at least a little difficult because he is so young and not supposed to be concerned with such things as reading and writing - but he *is* reading and writing, so maybe you can start with that as a point in which to draw a line in the sand...and from there, look at how long it 'normally' takes to get to less frequent letter reversals, etc., for most kids.

(I am getting used to the 'crazy lady' feeling, so maybe you will too)

LOL! We're homeschooling, so, yeah, I'm pretty used to the "crazy lady" stuff. But he was supposed to be my "normal" kid...

Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men...

www.covd.org is a good place to find a neurodevelopmental optometrist. I can tell you that we took dd7 to two before we found one that not only gave a diagnosis BUT was able to demonstrate the findings with dd and with computerized read outs.

"visual immaturity" seem ambiguous to me. What exactly is "immature"? convergence? Focus? tracking? I would suggest taking a look at the website and then finding a second opinion. My dd has been in therapy for 3 weeks and I am seeing results already!

I don't mean to sound like an expert, but I know that we have tried every "expert" from Audiologist to psychologist to counselors, OT and PT. Finally we feel like we are on the right road with the right "expert" leading the way!

DD7 will also be receiving OT and PT to augment Vision Therapy as well.

Good Luck!

The guy we're seeing is the only one listed on covd.org for 50 miles. That's where I found him. He is THE guy in our area, no question. I've asked around locally.

We do have a plan in place: we're giving the glasses a chance first, then we're to return to the DO this spring for re-examination and possible visual therapy. Given that DS is only 4yo, I am perfectly okay with that approach. It seemed wise to me (and to the DO!) to see if the problem might correct itself given a couple of months with glasses rather than diving into expensive and potentially unnecessary therapy. After all, we don't really even know if the problem is visual yet. (Or if there's a problem at all, for that matter...) Since we're starting early, we can afford to move more gradually than we could if he were 6 or 7yo.

I don't feel the need for a second opinion yet. And the optometrist did say more to me about the vision problems, showing me examples of the problems from the tests and so on. I just didn't go into that sort of depth here.

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it! But I'm happy to be moving slowly right now. I think our DO is being responsible.

Baby steps! One benefit of starting early!

Your approach makes sense.

I know that for our dd, time really was of the essence. Her visual skills were VERY behind while her Cognitve skills were advanced. Unfortunately the discrepancy put her in the wrong grouping at school and she was "feeling it". So what we had on our hands was a little girl who was becoming depressed and hopeless.

I have learned that for me that using my "mom gut" (and a little iput from this forum) has been the route to take.

Best Wishes!

Yes, I would move fast in your shoes, too. No question about it.

We're not there, thankfully. Not yet. And hopefully, because we're starting early, we won't ever get there!

We have our "Mental Nike's" on here!!

unfortunately not really.... I wasn't diagnosed till college.

I read this study that was put out by Harvard medical year ago that dyslexia is cause by damage to the 23rd gene. People with the disorder also tent to have autoimmune problems- ie allergies

also, this one I thought was weird there is something with the balance, if you see him watching tv and he tips his head to one side.... this is a indication.

Also when reading he may hold the book at an usual angle.

Make him watch something with the red blue 3D...... a lot of dyslexics repost 3D not looking right.... it doesn't work for me, I see all the layers and it is very flashy. High def 3D works

Thanks, Soupy. I'll look for these. He doesn't have any allergies that I know of, though everyone else in his immediate family does. I'm not sure about the book or the 3D issues. Very interesting!

Hi Kriston, writing back because I found this really interesting passage about letter reversals in 'Dreamers Discoverers & Dynamos' while I was re-reading some bits about add and capd.
I don't want to turn you off pursuing the ld angle, but I found this very very interesting, especially considering your other ds is so gifted.
I think you've said you read the book, so my apologies if you've seen this before.

pg 211
"Letter Reversals
All children reverse some letters and numbers when they first learn how to use these symbols. If reversals persist and interfere with a child's ability to read, they are seen as symptoms of a learning disability called dyslexia.
Few Edison-trait children actually qualify as dyslexic, but many continue to reverse letters much longer than their classmates do. Some will stop reversing letters when they learn to write in cursive. Some may continue to reverse the printed letters b and d occasionally all their lives.
If letter reversal is inconsequential, there is no reason to regard it as an impairment. In fact, another way to understand letter reversal is as the natural expression of a fluid-thinking mind. Edison-trait children conceptualize imaginatively and pictorially. Their minds are an animated motion picture of thought. Letter reversal is, in effect your child's mental act of resistance to giving up some of there fluidity. There is a strong relationship between visual ability and spatial intelligence. Your child's spatial intelligence tells her not to limit the meaning of a given symbol to one direction only. Functionally, this limits future possibility....

Consider the mental agility of a an inventive genius like Leonardo Da Vinci, who wrote his scientific notes backward.'

There is a bit more after that about architects and astronauts, and the advantage of being less oriented to our traditional framework of up-down-left-right being the 'only' way.

I wonder if 'not knowing' he is writing things backwards just means it doesn't hinder him from understanding his writing when he reads it back, he has just as easy a time reading back as forwards...?

I think my ds is definitely a person who will continue to reverse b and d his whole life, some of the time.

Also, as I reread your initial post about not wanting to look at early readers..ds was similar. His writing was what I called 'crazy writing', maybe there were lots of reversals but I didn't notice that in particular, all parts were just wacky.
Reading for him was looking at pictures and being read to. HE LOVES any books with tons of pictures. Words...not so much. You might check out Calvin & Hobbes or other things like that for your ds, let's see...
Captain Underpants.
Frannie K. Stein, Little girl mad scientist.
You have probably run the gamut on types of books offered to your ds, but I figured I'd throw that out if you have not approached from that angle (yet).

Ds was reading about 2-3 levels above grade as of last year, it was just a roundabout way to get there; book picks are still a problem. He is *very* picky!
For instance, 'how to eat fried worms', read about half. Wimpy Kid books, tons of pictures, reads them over and over. Manga usually works,too. (They are written back to front, so that is definitely doubly appealing...)

I am not sure where the writer that you are quoting got this simple definition of dyslexia, but it's not just about letter reversal. This is a commonly held belief though, I can't tell you how many times I have been asked if I "Actually see the letters backward?" I see letters backward, forward, upside, down and sideways.... it doesn't stop me from reading them though. I don't read right to left..... it's hard to explain. It's sort of like having a mirror in your head.

Think of letter reversal as the tip of an iceberg. Dyslexics have average or above average intelligence and many people believe that Edison was dyslexic. It has nothing to do with intelligence. Some dyslexics, like me can read without issue, actually reading better then 99% of the population.

Here is a link to a list of famous people with dyslexia... and what do you know, Edison is on it! So maybe Edison trait kids don't have it .... but I guess he did. lol

http://www.dyslexia.com/qafame.htm

My worry was that it wasn't just letter reversals--which I know is normal--but mirror writing in toto. He often reads and writes words and numbers from right to left instead of left to right. He doesn't seem to get that we Amuricans (smirk) read and write from left to right.

He'll ask "what's 1-4-9," and I'll tell him it's 149, only to find that he meant 941. Or perhaps even 194. Usually 941 though.

That seems more worrisome to me than simply flipping a "b" and making a "p"... (And more like what Soup is describing in her post--you snuck in there on me! )

He does seem to be a visual-spatial kid though. He's very artistic, very mathy. (But that is yet another reason why his not looking at books when we read them seems troubling.) Maybe he is just an Edison kid.

More food for thought. There's another book I need to reserve at the library.

thereis a great book called the spatail learner. can't remember who it's by.... but it's hard to find and i think out of print.

really discribes visual spacial / dyslexic very well

Soup - Yes I think the writer was trying to go down the path you are talking about - visual spatial/dyslexia, pros not just cons, etc. - maybe I didn't quote enough. I believe the author covers the subject in other places in the book as well.
I guess completely out of context it might not be clear that Edison Trait = SMART, EXTRA AMAZINGLY CREATIVE.

The book used to be called the Edison Trait - you might be familiar with it under that name. I should have mentioned the other title...(I thought my post was long enough!! )

I am fascinated by that fact that some of these disorders are more 'differences' which we sometimes appreciate the plus side of , but often do not. I liked this book for giving a really positive take on these differences.

I just got that book, haven't read it yet. I know now where that person is coming from....

There is this whole group of people that say that this thing... that people call dyslexia, is not actually a disorder but a different way of thinking.

Well, from my side of it, it's a little from both. Being dyslexic had cut me off from a lot of career paths, but it also led me to art. And I have grown to love making art.

Kriston & Soup - I am glad it is on your lists

Here is a thread on that book, too.
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/35248/1

I majored in printmaking/art in school.
I enjoy making art as well, but don't find the time too often anymore with a diff. kind of job + kids. I content myself with photography and some crafy costume/card making from time to time. Maybe after the two year old is less "terrible-2"...
- I can sort of see the light at the end of the tunnel

Kriston - what's the status on your dyslexia issue? Does anyone have anything more to add? New discoveries on how to diagnose and when?

I haven't read all the links already provided - and I will - but as of last night, I'm starting to think DS6 may have dyslexia or a very visual spatial learning method also. Other than taking of his glasses and rubbing his eyes during his Singapore Math test ..(we are going to use color filters this week to see if that helps any) - he also drew the Egyptian hieroglyph for the Red King backwards this week. If anyone else is doing History of the World - you know how complicated a symbol that is to draw the right way around if you're 6 especially!!

Suddnely it occurs to me, that I have no idea how one even diagnoses dyslexia for certain - other than it just keeps on appearing when the write or in other ways?

I'm still holding, Ironmom. Thanks for asking.

I confess that I swing wildly between worrying a lot about it and thinking I'm making something out of nothing. So usually I fret like mad for a while, post something and get everyone worried for me, only to decide that I'm overreacting. Then I back off. It's utterly ridiculous.

For as hard as it has been to have an HG+ first child, having one who may be 2E, may be ND, may be VS, may be something else (etc., etc., etc....) is SO MUCH HARDER! At least with DS8, I was sure that something was up. With DS5, I simply don't have the courage of my (alleged) convictions. I don't know what's up--if anything!--or what to do about it. So I'm waiting for testing, and we have an appointment with the vision specialist again.

*sigh*

Hi. I am new here. My dd (now 6) always exhibited several issues that we thought could be related to dyslexia. There is dyslexia in both sides of the family, including her dad. She had things that just didn't check, and at 4 I seriously considered it.

She had difficulty with sequencing (at 2 and 3 able to memorize long songs, but not the ABC song), difficulty with tasks that involved working with both sides of the body (late pedaling).

However, we have now completely ruled it out. Her reading took off extremely fast once she started at 4.2, she has good spelling, can read text dense books, etc. Yes, she has careless mistakes in reading sometimes, but I don't think they add up.

I read the book recommended by Dottie (Mislabeled Child). The Eide's have a clinic and they do NOT consider evaluating children for dyslexia under a certain age (I think 4). You can check their website. I especially love their description of what they call "stealth dyslexia", the unique characteristics that dyslexia would present in gifted children. You can read about it here (http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Library/DyslexiaReading/Stealth_dyslexia.htm ). Their website also has a ton of other articles on dyslexia.

Thanks for the link. It does explain that this is a larger issue beyond reading - and as DS6 can read amazingly well for his age and always has - I will need to start looking for the other clues that link to his other behaviors and lack of attention/organization.

Sorry, I got a typo. I think they would not even consider testing for dyslexia before 6.

Just ahd my son(5th grade) tested by a private ed. psy. Turns out he is gt, add, ld. He said he has a written expression and a coding learning disability. We had done two years of vision therapy at the schools behest(k5 and 1st). Is a coding learning disability cosidered dyslexia?