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    #33997 01/03/09 07:19 PM
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    Barbara Offline OP
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    Based on some social interaction things, I'm starting to wonder if DS9 is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum. Is his unawareness of social cues just him being hyperfocused, or would more "teaching" be helpful.

    Just musing here, but a little light went off recently and I'm starting research.

    Thanks for any insights or thoughts on the topic!

    Barbara #34001 01/04/09 05:06 AM
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    we went through this debate for a long time with DS7. I had some suspicions. I think I was hyper focused, and clearly when your gifted kid is 3 and tries to discuss the book just read with another little boy, there is bound to be some social awkwardness.

    When he got to school there was a therapist who tested him for OT. She decided he has Aspergars..... and then convinced many of this staff that this was true.

    We have had him tested by 3 Doctors.... and they all agree he doesn't have Aspergars, he's a smart little boy who is hyperactive and sometimes doesn't always notice whats going on around him.

    The older he has gotten the more I realize he doesn't have it.

    They kept asking me if he had "catch phrases", responces he would say over and over (He doesn't). Also there was a lot of discussion about creative play. ("Does he play with little toys and give make them talk to each other?")

    I am not sure if this is helpful to you. But I hope so.

    Last edited by ienjoysoup; 01/04/09 05:07 AM. Reason: big mistake
    ienjoysoup #34002 01/04/09 06:44 AM
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    Hi Barbara,
    I went over some of your early posts (loved the July 08 discussion on 'Hello!') and am thinking that with a boy as 'out there smart' as DS9, it is going to take a lot of wisdom and experience to lead you through the briar patch of possible duel diagnosis and misdiagnosis. I would not leave this in the school system's hands by any means, or even mention your worries to them. Aunt Grinity says:
    Quote
    'Unlearning from emotionally painful experiences is slow and unpredictable, so protect yourself!'


    Please remind me what kind of assesment he has gotten so far: WISC? Achievement? From School? Privatly?

    If he has the scores that would get him accepted, I would try the Davidson Young Scholar Program before making an appointment to have him assessed.
    YSP services: http://www.davidsongifted.org/young..._Scholars___Consulting_Services_374.aspx
    YSP
    Qualification Criteria: http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx

    If he doesn't have the current criteria, then I would look for someone to assess him who is very, very familiar with a profoundly gifted kid and with Aspergers.

    Be sure to tell the story about wondering if reality is a product of his imagination. I don't know that much about Aspergars, but I do reccomend reading some of the Davidson Database articles, such as:
    http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10167.aspx

    Here's part of the article:
    Originally Posted by Maureen Neihart
    Similarities Between Asperger Children and Gifted ChildrenThere seem to be at least seven characteristics common to gifted children and to children with AS. These commonalities have not been verified in any controlled studies, but are pulled from the shared literature and clinical experience. For instance, verbal fluency or precocity is common to both, and both may have excellent memories (Clark, 1992; Frith, 1991; Levy, 1988; Silverman, 1993). Both may evidence a fascination with letters or numbers and enjoy memorizing factual information at an early age. Both may demonstrate an absorbing interest in a specialized topic and may acquire vast amounts of factual information about it (Clark; Gallagher, 1985; Klin & Volkmar, 1995). They may annoy peers with their limitless talk about their interests. They may ask endless questions or give such lengthy and elaborately specific responses to questions that it seems they are unable to stop. One gifted AS child known to the author, when asked who Christopher Columbus was, responded with a dozen sentences detailing his genealogy. Hypersensitivity to sensory stimuli is also not uncommon in both groups of children. Parents of gifted and AS children alike often can tell stories of their child's adamant refusal to wear certain kinds of materials, to eat foods of a certain texture, to recoil or run at the sound of noises they find particularly abrasive, or to refuse some kinds of touch. AS children are described as having quite a range of abilities, as are gifted children. It was Asperger's observation that all children with the disorder seem to have "a special interest which enables them to achieve quite extraordinary levels of performance in a certain area" (p. 45). This interest is similar to the way in which gifted children are said to have "passions" (Betts & Kercher, 1999; Torrance, 1965). While they may demonstrate extraordinary skill in selected areas, both AS children and gifted children may perform in the average range in other areas (Baum, Owen, & Dixon, 1991; Wing, 1991). Both the gifted and the AS child are described as experiencing uneven development, particularly when cognitive development is compared to social and affective development at a young age (Altman, 1983; Asperger, 1991; Hollingworth, 1942; Silverman, 1993).

    ...
    Distinguishing Normal Giftedness From Asperger's SyndromeSeveral similarities between gifted children and children with AS have been noted. Some of the distinguishing criteria are listed in Table 1. One distinguishing characteristic may be found in speech patterns. AS children, like ordinary gifted children, can evidence fluent speech that seems characterized by original and analytic thinking. Although both groups of children can be highly verbal, AS children are typically pedantic, while normal gifted children are not. Frith (1991) suggested a distinction may be made by the seamlessness of the speech. AS individuals may demonstrate seamless mixtures of knowledge and personal accounts in their written or oral responses to questions. They run on and on, blending content, personal reflections, and autobiographical illustrations. They do so perhaps because they are not aware of the purpose of the questions.

    A second difference lies in how they respond to routines or structure. Although both are sometimes described as resistant to routine at home or school, ordinary gifted children are not nearly as rigid about routines as some AS children are. Also, gifted children, as a rule, do not have the kinds of difficulties coping with change that AS children have. AS children can have great difficulty with the lockstep scheduling and routine of traditional classrooms, and they may refuse to cooperate with common learning tasks of school. Gifted children may express displeasure about routines and may passively resist them, but they are not as likely to panic or become aggressive as are AS children. Although both the gifted and the Asperger learner may complain about schedules and procedures, the latter is more likely to become obsessive about it (Barron & Barron, 1992; Clark, 1992; Klin & Volkmar, 1995).

    There is also a difference in the whimsical behaviors that characterize AS children and some gifted children. Margaret Dewey (1992) wrote of the differences between autistic eccentricity and "garden variety eccentricity." Her observations may be useful to those trying to draw a line between normal gifted behaviors and AS behaviors. She noted that the normal eccentric person is aware that others will regard his or her eccentric behaviors as odd, while the individual with AS is not aware. People with AS often have no sense that they have done anything out of the ordinary. This obliviousness to social conventions is a trademark of the disorder. Several writers trace this obliviousness to the lack of a "theory of mind" (Atwood, 1998). Theory of mind is akin to metacognition; it refers to knowing what one knows and how one knows it, while simultaneously processing differences in others. Theory of mind also subsumes the ability to take perspective; to be aware of oneself and to take another's perspective at the same time. Children with AS have great difficulty understanding the perspective of others, which is what makes their social adjustment so challenging (Schopler & Mesibov, 1992; Wing, 1981; Wing & Gould, 1979). The criterion of obliviousness may serve to distinguish gifted children with and without Asperger's above age 7 or 8. For example, AS children may demonstrate excellent selective memory for people or events. Similarly, gifted children may demonstrate superb memory for selected topics of special interest to them. A difference, though, is that children with AS will assume others understand their references and will not be aware that others may find their memory remarkable in any way. In contrast, ordinary gifted children understand that others probably do not share their knowledge of selected topics and that others are surprised by their keen memory (Dewey, 1992).

    A fourth distinction between the ordinary gifted child and the AS child has to do with the "disturbance of active attention" (Asperger, 1991, p. 76). Gifted children can have attention difficulties; but, when they do, it is usually because they are distracted by external stimuli. AS individuals are prone to distraction, but it is distraction that comes from within. They attend much less to external stimuli and more to their inner world. This internal distraction usually impairs their school performance.

    Quality of humor is a fifth distinction. Gifted children with AS may be creative with word play and may even excel in making puns, but they lack the social reciprocity that underlies most humor (Atwood, 1998; Grandin, 1992; Van Bourgondien & Mesibov, 1987). They don't laugh at things that are funny to most people, and they often don't get the joke. Gifted children, on the other hand, are not characterized by deficits in their ability to understand humor.

    Affective expression is the sixth potentially distinguishing feature. Children with Asperger's tend to present as automatons to some degree (Atwood, 1998). Their emotional response is often not what one would expect. It might be flattened or restricted, or they may laugh, get mad, or become anxious inappropriately. Inappropriate affective expression is not a common characteristic of gifted children. Perhaps the most pronounced feature to distinguish a gifted AS student is his or her remarkable lack of insight and awareness regarding the feelings, needs, and interests of other people. An AS child will talk interminably in a monotonous or pedantic tone about a favorite topic, unaware that the listener might not be interested, needs to leave, is bored, or wants to say something. AS children will also interrupt private conversations and enter or leave abruptly without concern for the wishes or needs of others. They seem oblivious to the simplest rules of social conduct, and repeated efforts to instruct them or remind them do not change these behaviors. A pronounced lack of social awareness is not a common characteristic of ordinary gifted children. It is this struggle to understand the simplest social guidelines that frequently makes active participation in secondary gifted programs such a challenge for gifted students with AS (Szatmari, Bartolucci, & Bremner, 1989; Tantam, 1988; Wing, 1992; Wing & Gould, 1979).

    The difficulties of identifying gifted AS individuals are compounded by the variations found among AS children. Stereotypy, for example, is observed in some, but not all AS children. Twisting hands, opening and closing a book, rocking, knocking, and whirling are examples of stereotypy that are sometimes, though not always, observed in AS children. When stereotypy is observed in a gifted child, however, a diagnosis of AS or another pervasive developmental disorder may be warranted and merits further examination (APA, 1994).



    I'm not sure that 'interupting private conversation' between one's parents is all that unusual amoung our more anxious gifties. ((shrug))

    I do think that one needs to be on the look out for an angry or anxious or depressed gifted child who doesn't follow the social rules out of frustration or because they have found that negative attention is better than no attention. My son has a friend who is content to 'just be a part of the crowd,' and we think that this is terrific, but it feels like 'a fate worse than death' to my DS. Now that he is 12 this has been tempered by experience, but it was still going strong at age 10.

    Our little gifties have a wide range of personalities. You mentioned earlier that your son was content to learn on his own. This is a tough on for my son, and I think that that is an 'Introvert/Extrovert' issue, so be sure to look up articles on Introverts (who can be quite gabby at home with their dear ones, but essentially find their inner world much, much more interesting and 'real' than the outer world.) See more 'Myers Briggs.'

    At about the same age that you son was speculating that reality might all be a dream, mine was explaining patiently to me that his friend didn't have 'little voices' in their heads. Although I was mortified and held my contrary position, he gave examples of how a child might be angry and say something one playdate, but forget all about it the next playdate. Looking back on that conversation, I have a lot more sympathy with his feelings of loneliness at being the only 4 year old at the daycare with a 'little voice.' I think that if I knew then what I know now I would tell him that 'little voices' wake up at different ages for different children. So yes, I do think that PG kids who spend hours and hours of their early years with ND kids have an extra hurdle to get over in forming a positive social worldview.

    But of course, many of the people who changed the world for the better, had to 'not really care' what other people thought, yes?

    Sorry if I've wandered way way off topic,
    Grinity

    Barbara #34003 01/04/09 06:47 AM
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    Originally Posted by Barbara
    Based on some social interaction things, I'm starting to wonder if DS9 is somewhere on the Asperger's spectrum. Is his unawareness of social cues just him being hyperfocused, or would more "teaching" be helpful.

    Just musing here, but a little light went off recently and I'm starting research.

    Thanks for any insights or thoughts on the topic!


    My completely uneducated response would be 'Yes'. Yes, he could just be hyperfocused, a trait that is part of perseverance, as well as stubbornness. So, my thoughts are you have to help him learn the proper social responses and interactions so his ability to hyperfocus becomes a benefit to himself and others.
    It could be very useful to look into Aspergers, you may find ways to guide him, whether he has Aspergers or not.

    OHGrandma #34011 01/04/09 10:05 AM
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    Barbara Offline OP
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    Thank you so much for your responses. They were so kind and thoughtful.

    DS9 is not now in a full time public school - at his totally distressed request we pulled him out last year, so at the moment there are no teachers or administators mentioning diagnoses at us - though there were while he was in school, mostly ADHD.

    My concern for him is that although is in an extrovert (my earlier description of learning on his own was probably due to lack of peers ...) and has never met a kid who wasn't his "friend" (truly) he is only truly attached to DH, DS6 and I. And it's like he's in a "bubble" when it comes to social cues.

    We had him assessed at age 5 and was told "he's a nice, bright boy, maybe skip half of kindergarten" and put him at a total score of 128.

    Well, this fall he scored in the median of 10th grade in the Math MAP and 7th grade in reading (down from much higher last year I think because the two tests were 5 minutes apart oops) and I'm thinking it would be helpful to have another assessment.

    blather blather blather

    I just want the best for him, you all know how that goes.

    He did speculate the other day that black holes were causative in the spinning of galaxies. Does that make him exceptional? I have no idea - he's just my kid.

    Last edited by Barbara; 01/04/09 10:21 AM.
    Barbara #34013 01/04/09 10:34 AM
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    I think it's normal for 9 year old boy social interactions to look really really superficial to their moms.

    But do say more about exactly what this 'social cue bubble' is, ok?

    I think the idea of teaching him stuff about social cues is a good one, independent of if he does or doesn't have a particular diagnosis.

    Also, call the MAP test folks and ask them for their most detailed test results report, explaining that you are homeschooling him and want to use the MAP to give you an idea for curriculum planning.

    Sounds like an assesment is in order to evaluate the social skill issue and help with planning his education. I would strongly suggest also signing up for the Explore test through the talent search and seeing if you can get an idea of LOG.

    I figure that a strong Math student could be doing Algebra I in 7th or 8th grade. Have you tried him on Algebra? In the end, if he is healtily learning at the rate of a highly gifted kid, then he is a highly gifted kid, no matter what the test scores say.

    Best Wishes,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Grinity #34014 01/04/09 10:56 AM
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    Barbara Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by Grinity
    I figure that a strong Math student could be doing Algebra I in 7th or 8th grade. Have you tried him on Algebra? In the end, if he is healtily learning at the rate of a highly gifted kid, then he is a highly gifted kid, no matter what the test scores say.
    Grinity

    He is enjoying algebra with his dad.

    We took the 3rd grade CTY in November (didn't know you could ask to do higher...) and he missed one in math and two in verbal. So, 99+% of 5th grade. I haven't figured out a way to do the Explore test as it goes through the schools? Is that right? And our local schools (as near as I can tell without asking specifically which I will do) don't do the Explore.

    Social cues that he misses are not interrupting either verbally or physically and respecting an orderly progression (like lines for things) that's what I mean by "bubble".

    I'm probably way over analyzing this most likely "normal" behavior as he really doesn't exhibit any other truly overt Asperger like traits.

    Barbara #34016 01/04/09 12:20 PM
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    Originally Posted by Barbara
    Social cues that he misses are not interrupting either verbally or physically and respecting an orderly progression (like lines for things) that's what I mean by "bubble".

    So the obvious thing to try would be to make a cartoon of kids lining up and showing a child who 'cuts' in line, and asking your son what the child is doing and if it is wrong. Ask him what the other kids in the picture are thinking. I think the first thing to find out is if he doesn't know or he know and can't control himself, or if he knows and doesn't care. One behavior can have lots of different stuff going on beneath it.

    As for the interupting, well, I've seen in my son and a few other gifties that they fear that they will forget what they are going to say. I think that the overexcitabilities and anxiety can also drive the intensity of the fear of forgetting what one was going to say.

    Just some ideas...
    Best Wishes,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    ienjoysoup #34028 01/04/09 04:17 PM
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    Quote
    Also there was a lot of discussion about creative play. ("Does he play with little toys and give make them talk to each other?")

    Soup (or anyone else who knows): I didn't quite understand the point here. Is the presence of creative play an indicator of Asperger's or of its absence? I'd have assumed that it's pretty normal, but I just want to make sure. A constantly recurring episode in our house involves DS4 dragging several toys or stuffed animals into the room and demanding: "Daddy, let them talk!" (As if every object in the house is brimming with words, if only you could set the release valve properly!)

    BaseballDad #34031 01/04/09 04:53 PM
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    Imaginative play is normal, BBDad. No worries! smile


    Kriston
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