Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment CTY/SCAT results

Hi there,

I am really user az1 but I am out of town and some how the forums are not letting me sign in so I created a new (temporary) user id.

If some of you remember I had a 2nd grade sone who was differentiated in all subject areas and we were strongly pushing for an acceleration. We are due to receive the school's gifted testing results in a few weeks. I believe he took the CogAT, ITBS, and something else. In the mean time I had him take the SCAT. He took that December 13th and we have been out of town for a week and will be gone another week so I am certain that his results are sitting at my neighbor's house along with all of my other mail. CTY would not give me his numbers but said that he "did very well" and "qualifies for all classes, both on-line and summer offered through CTY. So that means as a 2nd grader he scored at least a 435 verbal and 440 quantitative. So, I do not have the actual report, I just know that he qualifies for all of their programs.

My question is, how can I use this with his school? If a 2nd grader has a min. 440 quantitative score and he is already differentiated in the highest math group in school, what can do with his SCAT scores? Can I use them as part of the Iowa Acceleration Scale?

Another question that I am a bit foggy on - is the SCAT above grade level? What do these scores tell me.

On a side note - when I took DS to do the SCAT he was not thrilled. I explained that it would help us (parents) and his school find out what he knew and if he was receiving the correct instruction. Later on the way home he asked me if kids score high would that mean that the were in the wrong grade. I asked him it could and what did he think about the opportunity to move up a grade if the test results showed that it would be best for him. He thought it would be "cool" and "really helpful" if that were the case.

So...if you've made it this far into my post, bless you. What do the score (even the general info that I have received) mean?

Thank you,

Momto2

You're right, Dottie - 435 and 430. I misread.

I would call my neighbor however,the CTY info would a little TMI for her, IYKWIM?

I'm glad to know that the actual report will contain more specific information. I am also so happy to know that the SCAT counts as "above level testing" for the IOWA. One more step in the right direction.

If I may jump in here with questions about the SCAT...

Is it knowledge-based or mainly a test of aptititude? I am considering having my DS6 (2nd grade) take it but don't want it to be low just because he wasn't exposed to math facts. He is PG with a strength in math but hasn't had formal instruction beyond grade level. If it relies on factual knowledge, is there any material I could have him briefly review so that it captures his aptitude?

Thanks Dottie! I'll check out the mini-scats.

My son took SCATs in 3rd grade (I think - it's all getting foggy now)
He finished, with only a few questions wrong, in about half the allotted time. I had drifted over to another part of the building to chat up the folks at Sylvan Learning center who shared a reception room.

Let's just say that someone was upset with me. So a word to the wise: bring what you need to keep yourself entertained and pee first.

Not all kids are this fast, even if they do well, but my son, who hates timed experiences, and I usually call a 'slow, deep thinker' suprised me.

((red face))

Grinity

BTW - the test didn't lead to a grade skip at the school, but it did help me start to believe in 'LOG.' When we first joined 'YSP' I was still in the kind of Gifted Denial were I believed my kid was (of course) gifted, but was rejecting the idea that it could have such a far reaching effect on every minute of his life. I was rejecting the idea that 'Gifted = Special Educational NEEDS' because I had bought the idea from my own expereience that 'gifted kids can take care of themselves' and internalized that if I had failed in way, it was my own fault. Nice, eh?

Getting in to YSP made a 'provisional impression' but I wasn't sure that I could trust it. I had never met another family in the YSP, afterall. But seeing that my son scored a full Standard Deviation above the other 'Gifted Kids' who participated in the talent search made quite an impression on me. It gave me gooseflesh to think of it like that.

Good thing that he did well on that test, or I my Gifted Denial would have had a field day.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Good Luck AZ1!

Grinity -

Please excuse my ignorance but what do you mean when you mention that your son scored "a full standard deviation above other other gifted students"? How would i figure that out with his scores? How would I figure out what a full stnadard deivation is?

Thank you for your wisdom!

Also - What steps would you suggest I take in advocating for a child in the 2nd grade that has scored above the 75%(against 4th graders)? He is already differentiated in the highest math group. What should I do next? Has anyone had success with meeting with the teacher and possibly the GT teacher and we also have an "instructional coach" at our school - and present them with the CTY results?

Thanks again!


az1

The SCAT results will help you fill out the Iowa Acceleration Manual as an 'Aptitude' test. I would include it in the results that you bring to the school to argue for acceleration, but by itself it isn't an Achievement Test. Schools are usually looking forward to seeing that there are no 'Gaps' and that the child has learned every thing that they would have if they had sat in the seat, so things like 'administering the school's own end of year test' or all the 'end of unit tests' are likely to be more persuasive.

You can show your school the SCAT scores and show how they compare to all the other kids who took the test as part of the talent search. It's sort of a catch 22, if the School folks know what a SCAT is or what a Talent Search is, then they'll be impressed and it's useful. If they don't .... then it's hard to get them to see it's value. One possible way to help the school understand the results is to call CTY and tell them about your son's scores and ask them what exactly you should tell the school that they mean.

I called CTY and gave them my son's scores, and asked them what level of Online Math he would start at given his scores. The fellow on the phone said that with scores that high, it would be a matter of trial and error to figure out where to start. That kind of helped me realize that I wasn't dealing with their 'run of the mill' gifted kid.

I don't think that the SCAT is meant to be one of those tests you can just flash to the school and get a free 'grade skip' token. But it's terrific for those 'Am I one of those scary parents?' moments.

Smiles,
Grinity

That makes sense to me, because, I can't imagine who is participating in the talent search at that age anyway? By definition it is limited to kids whoes parents think that they are in the top 5% and know about CTY and are interested enough to bring them. How large or stable is that group going to be? My family members, for example, knew and participated in the 7th grade CTY SAT talent search, but had no idea that there was something for 2nd or 3rd graders, and they are a quite savy bunch in many ways.

I'm sure that there are neighborhoods where taking CTY is a 'must.' I just don't live in one of them. I'd be real real curious to get tons more information on the situations of families in the denominator.

LOL - the numbers are probably so small that when Dottie and I started talking about the test when this board started, we probably influenced the nature of the denominator. Just speculating.

Obviously the percentage against 4th graders is more stable. I just find it difficult to extract meaning from the info. What exactly does it mean to do better on a test than 75% of 4th graders as a 3rd grader? What percentage of 3rd graders could do that? We don't know. How about what % of 2nd graders? It leaves you wide open to the'we have handfuls of students like yours' argument. In other words, they may admit that 15% of 3rd graders could do better than 75% of 4th graders on a reasoning test, but since they don't expect any kid to be able to reason before 6th grade, then they plan to go on leaving those kids untaught and undeveloped like they always do.

AZ1, your school sounds a lot less callus than my theoretical school (above) since they do do groupings. In the long run, the trick is to get the school to evaluate what the child already knows (not their aptitude, learning speed or potential - topics which are too intangible for many school systems) using their own internal materials and their own students for comparison.

Believe it or not, just getting the school to fully use their own instruments, not giving up after they reach their expected top, and then to trust their data is a huge (but often winable) job. Is it fair to hothouse a bit to convert a bit of potential to actual? Sure it is, as long as its fun, or the good kind of stress for the child anyway.

You can always adopt the approach of the CTY fellow on the phone: We don't really know where he fits, so lets try taking some various trial above-grade placements and see what happens. We actually were offered, and accepted, a skip to 8th grade math with 7th graders after completing 4th grade math plus zero hothousing and underachievement. Guess what? after 3 months it was clear that he wasn't going to do well in the class. The subject acceleration was also causing him to miss valuable class time, and a drop back to 7th grade math with 6th graders was a big help. Sure it was embarrassing at the moment, but of all the grudges he caries, that isn't one of them.

I like how Dottie has been able to get her kids accelerated in 'increments' (although her ds maybe wouldn't have needed it) but we started so 'late' that everyone felt very urgent about the whole thing.

Smiles,
Grinity

I called CTY and they told me that I should talk to the professor who heads up the math department. I got his email and sent him a quick note. They also told me that, based on his scores, they felt he would start with the accelerated math for 4th graders (he is a 2nd grader) and then they would adjust as needed. I was told that the professor would have a more concrete idea as to where to place him.

I am also awaiting a call from the CTY counseling center. I was told that my call would be returned w/in 48 hours but who know with this being a holiday week.

Grinity - I am not aware of anyone else we know taking the SCAT. I am sure there are kids in my area but I haven't heard it discussed.

Our district does have a gifted magnet school. There are only 70 spots in each grade (beginning with 3rd). There generally is a lottery because more kids make the cut-off then there are spaces. There are waiting lists for every grade. They take the scores from the test the kids took in November - CogAT, ITBS. The scores should be available mid-January. I am not holding my breath for a spot. I want to be proactive, not reactive.