Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums AP vs IB vs Running Start

DS is currently in 8th grade, and our local high school has a full IB program available. Another local HS offers AP classes. Which is the better option? He has expressed a certain amount of frustration in having to wait until 11th grade to participate fully in the IB program (10th is when they do some pre-IB classes.)

They also have a Running Start program here (WA) wherein the school district pays for the students (beginning in 11th grade) to enroll in the local community college. This way the students take "college" classes, but also get credit for HS. They graduate from high school with a diploma and an Associates degree, and the district pays for it. Our concern over this is two-fold. First concern: it's not a solution until 11th grade. Second concern: our understanding is that the college classes aren't as challenging (i.e. fun) as the AP classes, and even less so than the IB classes.

Anyway, wondering what the thoughts/experiences are here with these types of programs.

Also, our jhs principal and DS's counselor approached the district last year about a full year acceleration to begin 9th this year (housed at the jhs), and the district poo-pooed it outright, "That's why we have honors classes for those kids." *sigh*

Thanks in advance for your stories and input!

I tutor students in an IB program, and my cousin (DC14) does an AP curriculum. It seems as if the IB is a little bit more accelerated, but students do have to wait to take full advantage of it. Is it possible to arrange something with the community college, where he could take college courses on his own for challenge? I tried that for as long as my district would let me when I was in high school, and I got more out of that than I did from AP classes. If you have ACT scores or SAT scores (especially if comparable to the college's average), community colleges sometimes will arrange for something to be done so that a student can learn at his/her level. Usually, they enjoy having gifted students

I have no direct experience, but I've overheard that IB is less flexible and more paperwork. Lots of community service. Perhaps better for a globally gifted kid that can is ingenious about filling their own needs inside a rigid structure.

I've heard that individual AP classes can be very poor, with the majority 'shouting down' any alternative points of view.

Still, for my kid, the more inherantly flexible the structure, the better.

Sad that even with the principal and counselor backing you, the diestrict nixed the acceleration. I would try to go over the district's head and push a bit more if you can.

Running Start sounds great for 11th grade, can you partake as a homeschooler and decleare him an 11th grader at will? What about paying for a cc class or two while you wait? Perhaps you can get the gradeskip through this back door if the school is used to granting HS credit for CC classes?

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately, I have looked into the requirements for the local community college, and it appears as though they have a minimum age requirement (unless registered through the Running Start program..?) However, with your encouragement I feel that it might be worth a phone call.

At this point, I would be concerned about homeschooling (or online schooling him) and accelerating him. Reason being, he is currently an 8th grader and I wouldn't do it until next year - would mean that he would miss a year of high school. Quite honestly, I don't know how that would effect his college entrance applications...? Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again!

Hi,
I did look into the possibility of enrolling my then 11 year old son into our community college last year. After I was told that students must be at least 16 years old I contacted our regional superintendent. He called back once to inform me that he was still looking into the possibility of an exception if I accompanied my son, but I didn�t hear from him for a final answer. In the meantime, my son received a scholarship offer from a private school to include continued math acceleration (main reason we left previous school) and an offer to start as a freshman at the local Catholic high school. I think we may have had a shot at the cc option if I had persisted because the regional superintendent seemed pretty reasonable.-I�ll assume he lost my contact info!

I don�t know how missing a year of high school would effect college applications other than a vague understanding that some colleges (Stanford and Washington U stand out) are more accepting of non traditional education applicants than others. You may want to call a few admissions offices to learn their expectations for proper course documentation.

I would love to learn more about the differences and similarities between AP and IB too as it seems our relocation to D.C. is likely.

I have been mulling over IB for DD who will be a 5th grader next year. Our district overs multiple options for middle school. We have magnet schools with IB programs, a single gender charter school that is top rated in the state, and we also have magnet schools with singular focuses - ie, an arts magnet middle, a science and math magnet middle, and also a business magnet middle. I used to be of the belief that DD would not be a good candidate for the IB program as she tends to repel from any rote-learning. Her learning style seems to be - get exposed to the information, mull it over, test on it, and move on. She resists reviewing the info at any cost.

My initial research on IB was that concepts and learning chunks were drawn out and that she would dislike that immensley. But now, the more research I do, the more I tend to think that IB could be a fit for her. Does anyone have experience with IB in middle school?

Thanks

There is a big push among major colleges to identify gifted homeschoolers. The reason being is that there is evidence that homeschoolers who attend college are much more likely to graduate because they already have self motivation. Many of the colleges now have a homeschool liason in the admissions office to help with the quirky parts. If your child has good SAT and ACT scores, the colleges want them and in many instances offer full scholarships based on test scores. In no way should you consider homeschooling a detriment to college placement.

As far as early admission to college courses goes... There is a federal law that only allows children under 16 to attend college courses under the supervision of their parent or guardian. So if your child goes, so do you. Physics anyone? LOL

What I am going to say here is only anecdotal, from my readings and conversations, no direct experience yet...

In the interset of full disclosure - DS is also and 8th grader who will start an IB program next year. The IB HS he intends to attend happens to be the best HS in the state (according to Newsweek ratings). The IB program there is the oldest in the state (close to 20 years) and they offer an array of IB subjects to choose from (more than 30).

Here is what I have been able to gather re AP/IB so far:

1) People have generally two reasons when looking at an advance program in HS - they are trying to accumulate college credits so then college goes faster/is less expensive OR they are looking for the most challenging curriculum that will stretch the student. I am not saying that one precludes the other, but you have to decide what is MOST important for your child.

2) If trying to go after advanced placement/credit in college, AP might be a better choice as it is still much more widely recognized program compared to IB.

3) If you are trying to deepen your child's education, in my opinion a well implemented IB program does a better job.

4) some schools offer combined AP/IB classes, meaning that while they prepare the kids for an IB exam, they will also make them ready, with minimal self study, for an AP test.

5)If you are looking for a college credit, most colleges will grant you one for a score of 4 or 5 on an AP exam(on a 5 scale) but you need to score 6 or 7 , and frequently only 7 (on a 7 scale) on a HL IB exam to get any credit. Hence it is easy to see that you have a better chance of earning a credit thorugh an AP test.

6) AP test are multiple choice, IB exam is an essay type/student produed response . Draw your own conclusion here.

7) You do not have to take an AP course to write the exam, you have to take a corresponding IB course to sit for an IB exam.
Therefore you see a lot of IB kids with several APs under their belt.

8) You can pick and choose your APs, not so much with your IBs, althought if the school offers a lot of IB courses you can do some cherry picking as well.

9) To graduate with an IB diploma, and this might differ from school to school, but at the one S is interested in you have to do more than your HS requires , you need to complete four years of each: math, english, science, foreign language.

10) IB program is not rigid - it depends on the program and willingness of a school to make accomodations.

11) Generally 9 and 10 grade consists of pre IB classes that put students on an IB track. Ex. if you want to pursue IB English HL you should take 10 Honors English as an 9th grader.

In my own very private opinion :IB is a much more balanced, much well rounded program, or maybe put differently - it encourages your student to be much more well rounded. I like to think of an IB as a pre college LAC education or great books curriculum
If you have a mathy kid, the kid will still have to take four years of English, will need to learn Euro History etc. Same goes for a great writer - will need to take math and science for 4 years. TOK course is something like a philosphy class - they answer questions "why do I know what I know", they learn how to be analytical in their thinking and argumentation. Ib kids are generally said to have no problems with writing when they get to college.

Please remember that every IB program is different. I would be very caucious with a pregorm that is new, ofers limited number of classes, although I do understand you have to start somewhere.

As a teacher in a large district, I can share what my experience has been...

Our district as an IB and a Pre-IB program (for middle schools). The program is very rigorous, and students report having 2-3 hours of homework each night. IB is supposedly not set up for "gifted" students, but for bright and/or average students who are highly motivated. I know of high average kids who have REALLY struggled with the workload, and HG kids who breeze through it. Interestingly, at least with our program, I never hear kids talk about the "global" view they are getting or the special projects they do - just the sheer amount of homework involved!

AP has a reputation for being very rigorous as well, but keep in mind that the College Board has some new initiative out there proclaiming that ALL kids should take at least one AP class in order to graduate from high school. I just attended an inservice on this, and their contention is that the additional rigor is good for ALL students, not just advanced students. In my opinion, this is sort of like communism - nice in theory, but in practice is just not realistic. By placing every kid in an AP class, it effectively "dumbs down" the course - the teacher is forced to take the material down a notch (or simply slow down in general) and cater to the middle of the class. If the middle is full of average to below average kids, the result is a less rigorous course. The AP teachers are fighting this, but our district is buying in to the concept - sort of a "success for all" philosophy. I guess it looks good politically, and the College Board makes more $$. Everyone wins, except the kids the curriculum was actually designed for. So I'd check out what's happening with AP in your district, as I know this is becoming more common in many high schools across the country.

I can't speak to the Running Start program, but the CC's around here are a joke - I have a friend who teaches English Comp. at one of the local CC's, and she said it's like teaching 8th grade all over again. I also had a friend who (for financial reasons) attended CC for her first two years. She ended up having to take Intro Chem and Intro Physics over again in the 4-year university, since the CC didn't adequately prepare her and she was lost in upper level courses. However, there are some CC's out there with excellent programs, so I would evaluate your CC (and observe some classes) before making a decision along those lines.

Overall, I think your options are very location-specific, even though these programs are supposed to be standardized. It will help to ask a lot of questions and find out which programs fit best with your philosophy and goals. Definitely ask if DS can shadow in each program for a day - often, kids will get a feel for what will work best for them after being immersed for awhile.

Best of luck!

We recently had a law passed in Texas that any student who graduates with an IB diploma is given 24 college credits at all state universities. (I may be wrong on the precise number, but it is twenty-something.) There may be something similar in your state. It is worth a look if college credits are a determining factor.