Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional What else should I do (or not do)

Hello, I am a new comer here. I am hoping to have posted in the correct forum. Please feel free to move this to the right one if otherwise. So below is my story (or my DS8's).

When DS was 4, I pushed him to go through the early entrance test to start kindergarten. He did it by just passing the WPPSI-III scoring criteria at the school district at that time. The testing school district psychologist had concerns as he could not concentrate on a lot of tasks during the test.

Kindergarten was a blast for him and the teacher adored him. I guess it was not too much different from daycare.

At 1st Grade, I did charts with his teachers (two home classroom teachers doing job-sharing) about his listening skills and controlling on blurting. No issues academically.

Same thing at the 2nd Grade. But the 2nd Grade teacher really strongly "encouraged" me to do an assessment on ADHD for DS. While at his pediatrician's office, he was climbing onto the exam table and going through the swabs and blood pressure meters with me talking to the doc. The doc asked about his school progress and suggested the same assessment. So I did the form and the teacher did the form. Then the pediatrician said he has ADHD and referred us to a child psychologist. We had one visit with the psychologist then and one visit at the end of the school year. He basically would not dispute the conclusion from the PCP (pediatrician), but does not strongly encourage medication. (Both the pediatrician and the child psychologist belong to the same medical practice group.) On the other hand, the pediatrician strongly suggested medication during our visit at the end of the school year. His MAP tests at the beginning and end of the school year are both at 220 range.

He is still not on meds. He loves to argue or bargain with us now. Now in 3rd, with the Fall MAP results for both math and reading among the top three of all the 3rd graders at school, both his classroom teacher and GT teacher wanted him to be in GT program. But his GT testing score was not good at all, as he could not concentrate during the test. They managed to ask the school psychologist to do a WISC-IV test for him. (FSIQ 141, VC 144, PR 139, WM 132, PS 106). And with that combined with MAP scores, they now are able to get him into the GT program. At the latest PTC, the classroom teacher, the GT teacher and the school psychologist were all there. But at the end, I was asked what I would suggest, or something like they don't know what else they can do to especially control his impulsivity (like one time he suddenly swung his arm then ended up hitting another kid in the back, or would always complain about boring in his PE class). His in-school work is a mess mostly (accuracy is not a problem), even if he managed to finish, except his cursive, which his teacher has only good things to say about. (I know he does it as if he was drawing a picture after watching him doing it at home.) And he has managed to lose his jackets both last year and this year at school . Given my dh is strongly objecting to any meds, I told them that I would take him to see more docs. So I've just found this one doc (in the same medical group, sadly) who specializes in both ADHD and GT kids, and have made an appt already.

The thing is, for our school district, ADHD is not officially recognized as a disability with special ed guidelines. So I am hoping to find some guidelines, practices, and tips that I can put together with information from internet, books, and hopefully that doc visit, to further discuss with the teachers at the school. But at this point, I am really frustrated about what else I can do. Any suggestions, recommendations will be welcome. But in the end, I am glad to have found this place for support.

This article is interesting.

Over-Identification of ADD/ADHD in the Gifted

http://www.educationaloptions.com/resources/resources_twice_exceptional.php

My son also has adhd...... all I can say is: Tae Kwon Do. It's expensive and we really can't afford it, but we do. It has done that much for him. He has taught himself to "burn off" extra energy. We still lose jackets, but he is not so hyper and is better able to focus and think.

My DH also has ADHD, when he was a kid they medicated him. Ritalin. He hated it! He would cheek the meds and spit them out later. He hated the way they made him feel. He said he couldn't think straight, they made him numb. When he was a teenager he started doing drugs which is common with kids who are given meds for hyperactivity. He quit when he met me. His story I have found is pretty typical though.

I have to go off track for a moment. let's start a seperate thread on ADHD/Giftedness/ Doing Drugs in High School because this is interesting stuff!


Hi Soupie -

I appreciate you point soupie, but hold on with the logic there!
'Doing drugs' is common amound teenagers in general. ((If you count alcohol as a drug, which I do, then common is an understatement, yes?))
I believe that there are numbers that show that doing drugs is more common in people who have ADHD, many of which are medicated for it. So there most likely is an association - but what is the cause? Being given medication as a child? having ADHD in the first place?

FWIW, my guess is that kids with more severe symptoms are more likely to be medicated, so if there a causal connection between having ADHD and 'doing drugs' as a teen, then maybe it's because the more severe situations are the ones most likely to be medicated, yes? Or maybe there is a parental factor, with parents who are willing to persue alternative treatment being more involved, or less athority-following, either of which MIGHT be protective of kids 'doing drugs.'

Now let's add the gifted layer...many gifted kids yearn to belong to the crowd. Many gifted kids aren't good at 'shutting down their brains' so they can just relax. Pot, in particular, 30 years ago in more particular, has the effect of helping kids relax, AND of giving kids a way to fit in with a group. Not the least part of which is that if I'm stoned, I don't mind so much that my friends don't provide much mental stimulation. Here's another part of it: the last time I was sick, I had the insight that just washing the dishes was a challenge, and if I didn't have other challenges in my life, maybe I would enjoy making myself sick or impared so that regualar activities were more engaging. So maybe our 'Stoned Underachievers' have finally found a way to self-differentiate. Just not a productive way!

((I am not supporting drug use by anyone of any age here - just facing facts.))

I know at least one gifted adult who finally found a way to handle all the challenges of being unidentified and unaccomidated gifted in high school by 'getting high' daily, and still got and 800 on his Math SAT. As a college student, it was not at all unusually to see some of the brightest (and least productive) kids 'doing drugs' on a daily basis, and again, I felt very left out by not being interested in Alcohol use.


So maybe gifties with ADHD don't use because they have ADHD, or becuase they were medicated, but simply because they couldn't find a way to put their minds to work in a workable peer group? How many gifties get labled with ADHD when they are only 'more gifted than the programs provided by their school?' So I don't really have any answers, but I really think that when addressing the question, to medicate or not to medicate, that no one should be scared off by the 'the child might do drugs later' argument.

Thanks,
Grinity

Hi MNTC,
I feel your pain! I also was writing a behavior chart for my son in 1st grade - for those very same qualities + 'kept my hands to myself'

You have to face a few things (IMHO)
1) You son is HG or PG, (highly gifted or Profoundly gifted) not MG (moderatly or regularly gifted), so even 'experts' in regular giftedness, aren't seeing kids like your kid very often. Hopefully, this MD will be one of the alert ones who understands LOG, level of giftedness. It makes a huge difference. But be aware that this is one of those situations where the athorities may, with very good intentions, be clueless. ((Apply to http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx I know that you are one point off, but, give it a try anyway. Even if you don't get accepted, think about it, kids with one point higher than your child have IQ's too high to be measured. One tenth of one percent? What does that tell you? Nothing specific, but it should give you a gut feeling that you aren't dealing with 'regualarly gifted issues.'

((My son's (now age 12) distribution of scores is very very similar to your son's. It is a littel scary to me how similar their histories are but I guess it could be coincidence.))

2) Your son may or may not have ADHD. You may never full have an answer to that question. In the long run, it doesn't really matter - take the advice you can, and see if it works for you. I think martial arts are a wonderful idea. We didn't do it because my DH has a 'thing' about marital arts. ((I'm the one with a thing about medication - we all have our things, right?))

3) Find out what the average age, and the range of ages are in your son's classroom. Even though a gradeskip was the 'only way to go' for our son, and it has worked out - it is a tough climb for kids like our boys with PS 106. I know that gifties are supposed to be more mature than their agemates, but some of them are only more mature 'in some ways' - mine is all over the place on the maturity scale (if there was one) I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand up on end, but my DS12 is a really good boy. Keep in mind, and you may want to ask the teachers to keep in mind, that while this placement is correctfor your son, overall, there will be a few areas, here and there, where his real age leaks through. Your son was early enteranced. The rest of the boys in his class may have been held back. There could be a 2 year spread. No wonder he acts a bit 'babyish' at times. I don't think that this is cause for alarm.

4) It must have been really, really scary to be in that school meeting and have all the seasoned experts asking you 'what do you suggest.' This is not at all unusual given your son's LOG as demonstrated by his IQ scores. The good news on this is that now you aren't alone - you have us. Tell us about what school is like for your son, the ups and downs, and we will give you ideas that you can take to your team. Sounds to me like the GT teacher could be sending 3 3rd graders up to GT math with the 4th Graders easily, yes?

5) The biggest worry that I have when reading about your family is the 'debate and argue' thing. What a pain in the neck. It is so so so difficult to disipline a kid with a 8 year old emotional system and a 12 year old talking system. I read and re-read Sylvia Rimm on this on.

6) This is going to take a long, long, long time to sort out - luckily you have a long time - your kid is 8! Yippee!

Here are some things that helped us:
1) Get structured and strict on bedtime.
2) Get structured and strict on mealtime.
3) Have an argument plan -
a) Establish ground rule that you will listen to the argument, but that once you have made your final decision, the subject will be dropped, and enforce this mercilessly
b) Child presents his side of the the argument
c) Ask, anything else, and continue to listen
d) repeat above until everyone is satisfied that all possible objections are addressed.
e) Ask child to state your side of the argument, and all your possible reasons.
f) Dig for child to come up with any other reasons for your position. Keep prompting and listening. Add your own reasons once child is really exhausted.
g) check and see if child has any other arguments for his side - if not
h) remind child that you will now contemplate these arguments in peace for 20 minutes. The subject must remain dropped during the contemplation time AND after the ruling comes down.
i) Give your ruling
j) Stick with your position (unless it's dangerous) and mostly stick with your agreement that the subject will be dropped. The silent treatment is acceptable in this case, on this particular subject.

I know this sounds like a lot to do, but it takes longer to write than it does to do. feel free to make a print out and put DS in charge of leading you through the steps if you wish - LOL!

By 9, my summer birthday, but unaccelerated kid, announced that he was no longer going to look to adult athority for guidance. He and his friends were going to decide what was right for them. Unfortunatly for him, his friends were also 9 years old! At that point, school was a joke, he was melting down over homework that ended up taking him 90 seconds to do, and we had been through a full year of negotiating with the public school over subject acceleration and 'in class differentiation.'

I switched him to a private school that we thought we couldn't afford. They skipped him into Middle School within a month. He was SO SO far over his head organizationally that he really learned to rely on adult help, his parent's and the teachers. It was hard but very beautiful. He now has a work ethic, and knows that 'the hardest Math in the world, is the Math you haven't learned yet.' He tells me that he was 'just joking' back then when he was 9. ((skeptical look))

He is back in the public school now, with a nice handful of friends, getting good grades and handing in his homework. He now understands that he needs to set higher goals for himself than the teacher's require of the other kids. When he gets grumpy, we joke about the other 'smartie' he met at the private school, a first generation kid, with a more traditional upbringing - we say 'What would C.B. do?' and laugh at our terrible taste in jokes, and then we head in that direction.

So - take a deep breath, pull up a chair, and snuggle in dear. It will be a long and interesting journey, sometimes painful, but we will be right here to hold your hand.

Smiles,
Grinity

I have heard what the docs say about ADHD and what the school says... what does your son say? We are dealing with this with two of my children. My oldest is 8yrs and able to communicate very well. She was interviewed on the ACTeRS self-report by the pediatric psychologist and it was eye-opening. Her responses yielded her perception of severe Hyperactivity/impulsivity. I had no idea that this was bothering her to such an extent.

My husband and I were very against medication at first. Our pediatrician, knowing me well suggested Daytrana. We have since opted to use it. It is a patch that is put on with reaction in 45 minutes and removed with some residual effect for up to 2 hours. It is absorbed directly into the blood stream so it has much less risk for side effects. It took a while to find the right dose, commonly the child is over-emotional on to low of a dose. My daughter is able to tell us that this is helpful to her and she has noticed that she is able to concentrate much better. She is then able to have some control over when to take it off or how long she wears it on a given day based on what she wants to do activity wise.

She is in the process of being tested by the school district(her other testing was done outside the school). She also took MEAP this year so it will be interesting to see what these tests show in comparison. Her psychologist was confident that her scores should be improved since she had such a hard time testing before, and my daughter is now interested in taking some CTY programs this summer so we will see.

The verdict is still out on what impact the medication will have on testing but more importantly it has positively affected my daughters every day. I do know that some research shows that vitamin B6 has shown the same result in clinical trials as ritalin. (I think the University of Ohio Micronutrition Dept.has info on that.) We give my other daughter B vitamin supplements and only use Daytrana when she has to sit for long period like in the car on a trip, we are waiting longer to judge the overall effects. (She has very large problems with impulse control.) Some people use caffeine as a homeopathic treatment for ADHD. You need to judge what amount is effective and it needs to be given in the absence of sugar, it didn't work well for us but I know some swear by it.

Hope that is helpful and since it is getting long I'll stop for now. If you have any questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I wish you the best, it is sure a challenge.

Oh I forgot, unless it has already been mentioned. The school should have to do a 504 for ADHD diagnoses, if your son doesn't qualify under IDEA. I believe you said he didn't. That should give you a plan of action and expectations within the classroom. Wrights Law is a good website with lots of info on that as well, just google it or let me know.

Hi and welcome!
Good for you to be seeing someone who specializes in both ADHD and gifted. Ditto on what others have already suggested about structure and helping your son.

One approach you could try is to go the nutritional/biomedical route. Many parents say that supplementing with Omega 3s (fish oil) can help with focus and concentration. Have him tested for allergies (IgG and IgE testing). Look for connections that might be present in terms of patterns of behaviors associated with exposure to different foods or other potential "toxins." A good resource for this is the book "Healing the New Childhood Epidemic"
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-New-C...mp;s=books&qid=1224945440&sr=1-1

"Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults" might also be helpful to you.
http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-...mp;s=books&qid=1224945908&sr=1-1
Something else to consider is that ADHD drugs have made advances and there are many different ones out there, some that are even non-stimulant. If you reach a point where you want to try meds you can always do a trial and then stop if it is not working or making things worse. Some children I work with actually ASK for their meds because they make them feel better and more focused. If meds work for helping a child function better in terms of focus and concentration, task completion and social interaction then I say it is no different than a child with diabetes who needs insulin. Meds for ADHD are not as scary as you might think and for some children (and adults) are the right answer.

why does this all sound so familiar??? I love this conversation.

We were never given an ADHD or ADD diagnosis with DSjust9 (today!) but his behaviour as you described was eerily familiar. He hasn't been formally tested, but his MAP scores are generally in the same range as your son's.

If anything, we had a lack of interaction with school professionals - no contact from them, just punitive action during school time.

What helped in our particular situation was actually pulling him out of public school. He had been so bored and frustrated during the 6+ hours of the school day that the only way he survived was by physically moving his body and his mouth.

Now, he can "manage" himself much better and has a "smoother" feel to his energy, if you know what I mean. It's like he cn breathe again.

None of this story is meant to discount the very real experiences that people have with distractability, but as other posters have mentioned, ADHD can be a fall back diagnosis when a child's true giftedness isn't recognized/supported.

Good luck to you! Our family is with you, too.

oh, yes - Calm Child magnesium supplement and fish oil (we do the Nordic Naturals as they aren't very fishy)are very helpful in evening out the bouncy times.

(edited to add: today is his birthday and he is so excited that nothing we do or say will prevent him from floating free of his moorings so to speak. That excitabilty does go with the territory, I suppose)

MNTCmom - welcome! Glad you found this forum. It is packed with folks who have so much great info.
My ds8 has exhibited some of the attention issue and forgetting of jackets, etc., you mention but it has been lessening as he matures.
Since getting several non-pro diagnoses of ADD, etc., and since reading a lot on this forum, I will always wonder if we did not avert some more severe exhibitions of boredom, restlessness, too much energy and absent mindedness by signing him up for dance and later tae kwon do:
When ds was 4 he was so rough in his play, and massively energetic I had to do something. He danced all the time if the tv or radio was playing music, so I went the dance route.
He is still not what I would call 100% 'graceful', but he is fit and mostly happy. And really, a tiny bit graceful, considering he is an 8 year old boy!!

I really appreciate Grinity's advice about how you might never know for sure, you have to read a lot, ponder, and do your best.
I wish you good luck, please let us know how it goes!