Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional What else should I do (or not do)

Hello, I am a new comer here. I am hoping to have posted in the correct forum. Please feel free to move this to the right one if otherwise. So below is my story (or my DS8's).

When DS was 4, I pushed him to go through the early entrance test to start kindergarten. He did it by just passing the WPPSI-III scoring criteria at the school district at that time. The testing school district psychologist had concerns as he could not concentrate on a lot of tasks during the test.

Kindergarten was a blast for him and the teacher adored him. I guess it was not too much different from daycare.

At 1st Grade, I did charts with his teachers (two home classroom teachers doing job-sharing) about his listening skills and controlling on blurting. No issues academically.

Same thing at the 2nd Grade. But the 2nd Grade teacher really strongly "encouraged" me to do an assessment on ADHD for DS. While at his pediatrician's office, he was climbing onto the exam table and going through the swabs and blood pressure meters with me talking to the doc. The doc asked about his school progress and suggested the same assessment. So I did the form and the teacher did the form. Then the pediatrician said he has ADHD and referred us to a child psychologist. We had one visit with the psychologist then and one visit at the end of the school year. He basically would not dispute the conclusion from the PCP (pediatrician), but does not strongly encourage medication. (Both the pediatrician and the child psychologist belong to the same medical practice group.) On the other hand, the pediatrician strongly suggested medication during our visit at the end of the school year. His MAP tests at the beginning and end of the school year are both at 220 range.

He is still not on meds. He loves to argue or bargain with us now. Now in 3rd, with the Fall MAP results for both math and reading among the top three of all the 3rd graders at school, both his classroom teacher and GT teacher wanted him to be in GT program. But his GT testing score was not good at all, as he could not concentrate during the test. They managed to ask the school psychologist to do a WISC-IV test for him. (FSIQ 141, VC 144, PR 139, WM 132, PS 106). And with that combined with MAP scores, they now are able to get him into the GT program. At the latest PTC, the classroom teacher, the GT teacher and the school psychologist were all there. But at the end, I was asked what I would suggest, or something like they don't know what else they can do to especially control his impulsivity (like one time he suddenly swung his arm then ended up hitting another kid in the back, or would always complain about boring in his PE class). His in-school work is a mess mostly (accuracy is not a problem), even if he managed to finish, except his cursive, which his teacher has only good things to say about. (I know he does it as if he was drawing a picture after watching him doing it at home.) And he has managed to lose his jackets both last year and this year at school . Given my dh is strongly objecting to any meds, I told them that I would take him to see more docs. So I've just found this one doc (in the same medical group, sadly) who specializes in both ADHD and GT kids, and have made an appt already.

The thing is, for our school district, ADHD is not officially recognized as a disability with special ed guidelines. So I am hoping to find some guidelines, practices, and tips that I can put together with information from internet, books, and hopefully that doc visit, to further discuss with the teachers at the school. But at this point, I am really frustrated about what else I can do. Any suggestions, recommendations will be welcome. But in the end, I am glad to have found this place for support.

This article is interesting.

Over-Identification of ADD/ADHD in the Gifted

http://www.educationaloptions.com/resources/resources_twice_exceptional.php

My son also has adhd...... all I can say is: Tae Kwon Do. It's expensive and we really can't afford it, but we do. It has done that much for him. He has taught himself to "burn off" extra energy. We still lose jackets, but he is not so hyper and is better able to focus and think.

My DH also has ADHD, when he was a kid they medicated him. Ritalin. He hated it! He would cheek the meds and spit them out later. He hated the way they made him feel. He said he couldn't think straight, they made him numb. When he was a teenager he started doing drugs which is common with kids who are given meds for hyperactivity. He quit when he met me. His story I have found is pretty typical though.

I have to go off track for a moment. let's start a seperate thread on ADHD/Giftedness/ Doing Drugs in High School because this is interesting stuff!


Hi Soupie -

I appreciate you point soupie, but hold on with the logic there!
'Doing drugs' is common amound teenagers in general. ((If you count alcohol as a drug, which I do, then common is an understatement, yes?))
I believe that there are numbers that show that doing drugs is more common in people who have ADHD, many of which are medicated for it. So there most likely is an association - but what is the cause? Being given medication as a child? having ADHD in the first place?

FWIW, my guess is that kids with more severe symptoms are more likely to be medicated, so if there a causal connection between having ADHD and 'doing drugs' as a teen, then maybe it's because the more severe situations are the ones most likely to be medicated, yes? Or maybe there is a parental factor, with parents who are willing to persue alternative treatment being more involved, or less athority-following, either of which MIGHT be protective of kids 'doing drugs.'

Now let's add the gifted layer...many gifted kids yearn to belong to the crowd. Many gifted kids aren't good at 'shutting down their brains' so they can just relax. Pot, in particular, 30 years ago in more particular, has the effect of helping kids relax, AND of giving kids a way to fit in with a group. Not the least part of which is that if I'm stoned, I don't mind so much that my friends don't provide much mental stimulation. Here's another part of it: the last time I was sick, I had the insight that just washing the dishes was a challenge, and if I didn't have other challenges in my life, maybe I would enjoy making myself sick or impared so that regualar activities were more engaging. So maybe our 'Stoned Underachievers' have finally found a way to self-differentiate. Just not a productive way!

((I am not supporting drug use by anyone of any age here - just facing facts.))

I know at least one gifted adult who finally found a way to handle all the challenges of being unidentified and unaccomidated gifted in high school by 'getting high' daily, and still got and 800 on his Math SAT. As a college student, it was not at all unusually to see some of the brightest (and least productive) kids 'doing drugs' on a daily basis, and again, I felt very left out by not being interested in Alcohol use.


So maybe gifties with ADHD don't use because they have ADHD, or becuase they were medicated, but simply because they couldn't find a way to put their minds to work in a workable peer group? How many gifties get labled with ADHD when they are only 'more gifted than the programs provided by their school?' So I don't really have any answers, but I really think that when addressing the question, to medicate or not to medicate, that no one should be scared off by the 'the child might do drugs later' argument.

Thanks,
Grinity

Hi MNTC,
I feel your pain! I also was writing a behavior chart for my son in 1st grade - for those very same qualities + 'kept my hands to myself'

You have to face a few things (IMHO)
1) You son is HG or PG, (highly gifted or Profoundly gifted) not MG (moderatly or regularly gifted), so even 'experts' in regular giftedness, aren't seeing kids like your kid very often. Hopefully, this MD will be one of the alert ones who understands LOG, level of giftedness. It makes a huge difference. But be aware that this is one of those situations where the athorities may, with very good intentions, be clueless. ((Apply to http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx I know that you are one point off, but, give it a try anyway. Even if you don't get accepted, think about it, kids with one point higher than your child have IQ's too high to be measured. One tenth of one percent? What does that tell you? Nothing specific, but it should give you a gut feeling that you aren't dealing with 'regualarly gifted issues.'

((My son's (now age 12) distribution of scores is very very similar to your son's. It is a littel scary to me how similar their histories are but I guess it could be coincidence.))

2) Your son may or may not have ADHD. You may never full have an answer to that question. In the long run, it doesn't really matter - take the advice you can, and see if it works for you. I think martial arts are a wonderful idea. We didn't do it because my DH has a 'thing' about marital arts. ((I'm the one with a thing about medication - we all have our things, right?))

3) Find out what the average age, and the range of ages are in your son's classroom. Even though a gradeskip was the 'only way to go' for our son, and it has worked out - it is a tough climb for kids like our boys with PS 106. I know that gifties are supposed to be more mature than their agemates, but some of them are only more mature 'in some ways' - mine is all over the place on the maturity scale (if there was one) I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand up on end, but my DS12 is a really good boy. Keep in mind, and you may want to ask the teachers to keep in mind, that while this placement is correctfor your son, overall, there will be a few areas, here and there, where his real age leaks through. Your son was early enteranced. The rest of the boys in his class may have been held back. There could be a 2 year spread. No wonder he acts a bit 'babyish' at times. I don't think that this is cause for alarm.

4) It must have been really, really scary to be in that school meeting and have all the seasoned experts asking you 'what do you suggest.' This is not at all unusual given your son's LOG as demonstrated by his IQ scores. The good news on this is that now you aren't alone - you have us. Tell us about what school is like for your son, the ups and downs, and we will give you ideas that you can take to your team. Sounds to me like the GT teacher could be sending 3 3rd graders up to GT math with the 4th Graders easily, yes?

5) The biggest worry that I have when reading about your family is the 'debate and argue' thing. What a pain in the neck. It is so so so difficult to disipline a kid with a 8 year old emotional system and a 12 year old talking system. I read and re-read Sylvia Rimm on this on.

6) This is going to take a long, long, long time to sort out - luckily you have a long time - your kid is 8! Yippee!

Here are some things that helped us:
1) Get structured and strict on bedtime.
2) Get structured and strict on mealtime.
3) Have an argument plan -
a) Establish ground rule that you will listen to the argument, but that once you have made your final decision, the subject will be dropped, and enforce this mercilessly
b) Child presents his side of the the argument
c) Ask, anything else, and continue to listen
d) repeat above until everyone is satisfied that all possible objections are addressed.
e) Ask child to state your side of the argument, and all your possible reasons.
f) Dig for child to come up with any other reasons for your position. Keep prompting and listening. Add your own reasons once child is really exhausted.
g) check and see if child has any other arguments for his side - if not
h) remind child that you will now contemplate these arguments in peace for 20 minutes. The subject must remain dropped during the contemplation time AND after the ruling comes down.
i) Give your ruling
j) Stick with your position (unless it's dangerous) and mostly stick with your agreement that the subject will be dropped. The silent treatment is acceptable in this case, on this particular subject.

I know this sounds like a lot to do, but it takes longer to write than it does to do. feel free to make a print out and put DS in charge of leading you through the steps if you wish - LOL!

By 9, my summer birthday, but unaccelerated kid, announced that he was no longer going to look to adult athority for guidance. He and his friends were going to decide what was right for them. Unfortunatly for him, his friends were also 9 years old! At that point, school was a joke, he was melting down over homework that ended up taking him 90 seconds to do, and we had been through a full year of negotiating with the public school over subject acceleration and 'in class differentiation.'

I switched him to a private school that we thought we couldn't afford. They skipped him into Middle School within a month. He was SO SO far over his head organizationally that he really learned to rely on adult help, his parent's and the teachers. It was hard but very beautiful. He now has a work ethic, and knows that 'the hardest Math in the world, is the Math you haven't learned yet.' He tells me that he was 'just joking' back then when he was 9. ((skeptical look))

He is back in the public school now, with a nice handful of friends, getting good grades and handing in his homework. He now understands that he needs to set higher goals for himself than the teacher's require of the other kids. When he gets grumpy, we joke about the other 'smartie' he met at the private school, a first generation kid, with a more traditional upbringing - we say 'What would C.B. do?' and laugh at our terrible taste in jokes, and then we head in that direction.

So - take a deep breath, pull up a chair, and snuggle in dear. It will be a long and interesting journey, sometimes painful, but we will be right here to hold your hand.

Smiles,
Grinity

I have heard what the docs say about ADHD and what the school says... what does your son say? We are dealing with this with two of my children. My oldest is 8yrs and able to communicate very well. She was interviewed on the ACTeRS self-report by the pediatric psychologist and it was eye-opening. Her responses yielded her perception of severe Hyperactivity/impulsivity. I had no idea that this was bothering her to such an extent.

My husband and I were very against medication at first. Our pediatrician, knowing me well suggested Daytrana. We have since opted to use it. It is a patch that is put on with reaction in 45 minutes and removed with some residual effect for up to 2 hours. It is absorbed directly into the blood stream so it has much less risk for side effects. It took a while to find the right dose, commonly the child is over-emotional on to low of a dose. My daughter is able to tell us that this is helpful to her and she has noticed that she is able to concentrate much better. She is then able to have some control over when to take it off or how long she wears it on a given day based on what she wants to do activity wise.

She is in the process of being tested by the school district(her other testing was done outside the school). She also took MEAP this year so it will be interesting to see what these tests show in comparison. Her psychologist was confident that her scores should be improved since she had such a hard time testing before, and my daughter is now interested in taking some CTY programs this summer so we will see.

The verdict is still out on what impact the medication will have on testing but more importantly it has positively affected my daughters every day. I do know that some research shows that vitamin B6 has shown the same result in clinical trials as ritalin. (I think the University of Ohio Micronutrition Dept.has info on that.) We give my other daughter B vitamin supplements and only use Daytrana when she has to sit for long period like in the car on a trip, we are waiting longer to judge the overall effects. (She has very large problems with impulse control.) Some people use caffeine as a homeopathic treatment for ADHD. You need to judge what amount is effective and it needs to be given in the absence of sugar, it didn't work well for us but I know some swear by it.

Hope that is helpful and since it is getting long I'll stop for now. If you have any questions let me know and I'll try to answer them. I wish you the best, it is sure a challenge.

Oh I forgot, unless it has already been mentioned. The school should have to do a 504 for ADHD diagnoses, if your son doesn't qualify under IDEA. I believe you said he didn't. That should give you a plan of action and expectations within the classroom. Wrights Law is a good website with lots of info on that as well, just google it or let me know.

Hi and welcome!
Good for you to be seeing someone who specializes in both ADHD and gifted. Ditto on what others have already suggested about structure and helping your son.

One approach you could try is to go the nutritional/biomedical route. Many parents say that supplementing with Omega 3s (fish oil) can help with focus and concentration. Have him tested for allergies (IgG and IgE testing). Look for connections that might be present in terms of patterns of behaviors associated with exposure to different foods or other potential "toxins." A good resource for this is the book "Healing the New Childhood Epidemic"
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-New-C...mp;s=books&qid=1224945440&sr=1-1

"Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses of Gifted Children and Adults" might also be helpful to you.
http://www.amazon.com/Misdiagnosis-...mp;s=books&qid=1224945908&sr=1-1
Something else to consider is that ADHD drugs have made advances and there are many different ones out there, some that are even non-stimulant. If you reach a point where you want to try meds you can always do a trial and then stop if it is not working or making things worse. Some children I work with actually ASK for their meds because they make them feel better and more focused. If meds work for helping a child function better in terms of focus and concentration, task completion and social interaction then I say it is no different than a child with diabetes who needs insulin. Meds for ADHD are not as scary as you might think and for some children (and adults) are the right answer.

why does this all sound so familiar??? I love this conversation.

We were never given an ADHD or ADD diagnosis with DSjust9 (today!) but his behaviour as you described was eerily familiar. He hasn't been formally tested, but his MAP scores are generally in the same range as your son's.

If anything, we had a lack of interaction with school professionals - no contact from them, just punitive action during school time.

What helped in our particular situation was actually pulling him out of public school. He had been so bored and frustrated during the 6+ hours of the school day that the only way he survived was by physically moving his body and his mouth.

Now, he can "manage" himself much better and has a "smoother" feel to his energy, if you know what I mean. It's like he cn breathe again.

None of this story is meant to discount the very real experiences that people have with distractability, but as other posters have mentioned, ADHD can be a fall back diagnosis when a child's true giftedness isn't recognized/supported.

Good luck to you! Our family is with you, too.

oh, yes - Calm Child magnesium supplement and fish oil (we do the Nordic Naturals as they aren't very fishy)are very helpful in evening out the bouncy times.

(edited to add: today is his birthday and he is so excited that nothing we do or say will prevent him from floating free of his moorings so to speak. That excitabilty does go with the territory, I suppose)

MNTCmom - welcome! Glad you found this forum. It is packed with folks who have so much great info.
My ds8 has exhibited some of the attention issue and forgetting of jackets, etc., you mention but it has been lessening as he matures.
Since getting several non-pro diagnoses of ADD, etc., and since reading a lot on this forum, I will always wonder if we did not avert some more severe exhibitions of boredom, restlessness, too much energy and absent mindedness by signing him up for dance and later tae kwon do:
When ds was 4 he was so rough in his play, and massively energetic I had to do something. He danced all the time if the tv or radio was playing music, so I went the dance route.
He is still not what I would call 100% 'graceful', but he is fit and mostly happy. And really, a tiny bit graceful, considering he is an 8 year old boy!!

I really appreciate Grinity's advice about how you might never know for sure, you have to read a lot, ponder, and do your best.
I wish you good luck, please let us know how it goes!

Wow, Can I say I've really found a group of people who I can talk to and finally share my thoughts, instead of apologizing first.

Now I truly should give Tae Kwon Do another try. I paid for his Kung Fu lessons when he just turned four and he got kicked out after two lessons, as he was off doing his own moves. Later in the summer, I signed him up for Tae Kwon Do. Still being warned on and off about listening, he did last through the whole 10 sessions. But I was afraid to do it again, also because he started doing moves at school. Maybe I can give this another try, just to remind him not to play with the moves, especially at school.

His maturity is all over the place as well. Couple weeks ago, he told us how he saw some of the teenagers not respecting the elders, and they would regret that when they get old. He would sought to read all those scientific type books from the school library on one subject of his interest at the time, but refused to read a fourth grade fiction book given by the teacher, who tried to match the book to his capability. Then again, he would express his disappointment out loud of not being able to listen to more when the teacher finished reading stories to the class. I gave up those drill sheets at home when he was a little over 4. But at school, he just would not finish those sheets during the class and claimed that he knew those already, and it was too much writing for him in order to do those perfectly. He would mostly then proceed walking around the classroom to see how others were doing, then of course got himself in trouble. (He has one of those to be generously retested this week. I had to type up the whole sheet over the weekend so that he could practice at home. His practice run went just fine at home while even talking to me at the same time. We will see how it goes at school.) He would tell us all those fancy stories like happening in a movie and sometimes even acted it, but when it is school-time to write a story, be it fictional or not, all he could do were two sentences and messily printed letters.

He started doing double digit multiplication "in his head" shortly after entering 2nd Grade, all figured out on his own. I stopped teaching him any math "officially" right after the multiplication table, as the school is moving so slow on the subject and his social problem really making me afraid to move him even further. I feel really guilty not teaching him more when I am typing this. He now sometimes comes out the blue to tell us that he has figured out how some machines work and the astronomy evolution stuff, so I know he is feeding himself. I've just noticed that it has been emphasized that our GT program will help to challenge their minds, but is not designed to accelerate the curriculum. So maybe I should still explore some subject acceleration. So far he is pretty happy at the GT sessions. It sounded like they are even doing some simple algebra, maybe not the in the strict algebra sense/term. He would tell me "we were talking about 3x+6=12" and was excited that next week that they are going to do negative numbers.

Thanks for the info on 504, I went through the documentation of the school district, and looks like at least I can try to start an IEP for some accommodation other than sitting in the front
row, which he already does. I was heartbroken reading the two-page summary from his PE teacher submitted for PTC. It basically says he is a disruption for the class and she is worrying about his self-esteem (a positive spin, but may very well be true). So maybe 504 can help out some PE class accommodation as well.

Now that you have mentioned allergy, he's got multiple food allergies, asthma, eczema. Moreover, those are only the ones that I've found out the hard way and asked the doctors to test for. I maybe need to take him to an allergy specialist to get him really checked out.

Fish oil sounds like a good idea. Do you have the recommended dosage on those, or is it based on what's contained in the fish oil?

Can I say arguing with us parents has less consequences than doing that with the teacher ? The list for "debating" is going to be great for us to get started at home.

Thanks to all your replies, I feel that I've really got something that I may ask the doc at the visit, and hopefully he also takes a holistic approach . Same for what I can connect with the school on. I will certainly report back.

One tip on the tkd classes; we started ds at one where they did a bit of group exercise then lined the kids up in one long line to 'wait their turn' to kick a bag or something similar. He would be seriously off-course by the time it was his turn so in the end we didn't go with that school. We found another, further away (of course!) which had more instructors per child, and would pretty much keep them moving the entire time - that was a big difference for our ds.

Since I last posted, we did a lot of stuff.

We went to see a doctor at this clinic specialized in child development issues, and the doctor is specialized in GT kids based the online intro. After couple tests (computer and paper)/interviews, the assessment is that he has ADHD but gifted. But the doctor does not have a measurement of giftness other than the assessment results that we have provided. His classroom teacher, his GT teacher and his music teacher all filled out the assessment forms along with us parents. When I was at the result review session with the doctor, he suggested (1)try to ask for an IEP as he does truly qualify for special ed (2)send him to couple private schools which are best in terms of catering to more gifted kids, other than being really expensive (36K a year!) (3)talk to his pediatrician for medication.

For (1), I went to talk to his school and we actually set him up to meet the school social worker 30min/wk, but just to talk about him working on blurting, perseverance (so that he does not give up on harder problems if he is challenged by his classroom teacher), and working on social maturity.

For (2), that is what I was really disappointed. I did the research before the meeting and knowing there are several local public schools offering classrooms (or being a GT magnet school) for GT kids, and they had just started this five-year-research project on 2e kids. The doctor sure was not aware of those schools nor the research project. But his lack of awareness of those schools was what really makes me think ...

For (3), I talked to the pediatrician about meds even before DS had those visits with this doc. But we are still on the fence on this, and I really need some hard facts to persuade DH on this, yet the reality is that there are situations going both directions reacting to the meds.

Then for (2), I applied to two out of those four schools; this was based on distance to home around 20 miles. Each school had different assessments and parent/teacher recommendations. I stated his 2e condition to the program even before we officially applied. He was accepted by both. He went to one school for a one-day-stay (for which I did not stay) and went to the other one for a morning visit (for which I was there). He told me he liked the overall school experience at the one-day-stay school. Given the other school is even further out, we decided to transfer him to the GT program at the school which he visited for a day.

Both DS and I have been excited and getting ready for the new school year. I was even holding off possibly making a visit to Dr. Ruf, thinking all things will coming on track, given the GT program and the research project taking place at the same time. So last night I sent an email to the new teacher. One of the things I mentioned was the 2e topic. I received an email back today! Yes, the teacher is aware of the 2e issue. Then he went on to describe that during that one-day-visit, DS had been blurting/interrupting and being very disruptive to the classroom environment and they are concerned about his behavior "as I did not see him being successful and I saw him disrupting the learning of the students around him, which is not acceptable" in the GT program or the school. On the other hand, he would like to discuss the behavioral plans that we had before and if I am open to an IEP; and they would closely monitor him right away and they do know he can be successful. Then he asked if I have considered medication and that research shows meds combined with behavioral plan work the best. I really don't know what to think of this. I now have doubts on my decision of transferring him. I just feel they only want smart and normal (or made to normal) kid. How about they put him in a behavioral-plan-no-med control group for the research. I don't want DS to feel "miserable" and stuck in the situation. Maybe I am being too sensitive to the wording in that reply email?

MNTCMOM-

I feel your fear here! OUCH! Sounds like the tester didn't help much. One of the problems with having 'way gifted' children is that this means that you are likely to also me 'way gifted' and being disappointed with advice aimed for ND folks comes with the turf. Try to pretend you didn't get that email, and take deep breaths. He was accepted at the school and that is a good first step.

Take a look at these books, have you tried them yet?

If this sort of thing sounds like a match, it might be faster to just join the website, for 20$ a month you get digital access to the workbook and lots of podcasts, and in a month or two you'll know if this is going to work for your family.

We have seen tremendous change, but one has to be 'ready' to do this level of shifting. I'm don't know if your son does or doesn't need medication, (Glasser is very 'anti') but even with medication it's nice to know that parents might be able to make a difference.

Keep us posted - we care!
Grinity

Grinity,
Just checked the book out at Amazon. Should I say I am feeling much at ease now? If it can be a success for other kids, maybe it will work for us as well. DS had "homegrown" charts before and did have some plateau effect , but the third grader teacher thought he was too old to use it. Actually DS last year had been begging for a chart. Although I don't think it might be too difficult to have his new school teacher to embrace a chart, the challenge will be if they will truly embrace the chart and him if this has been already stated to me that without meds a behavioral plan can only take it to so far. Earlier today, DS said he really wanted to have a "better education" at the new school (if albeit any "obstacles"). So I am going to take it easy and have an open mind, and really engage the new teacher(s). Thanks for all the support. I will sure report back, positive and/or negative.

LOL to too old for charts in 3rd grade. Mine used one very well in 6th grade, and then when email was available in 7th grade I did a weekly Friday report via email to all the teachers, including study hall! They did help us!

By 6th grade the charts do look different:
1) Arrived at class on time
2) Arrived at class with pencil, paper, all needed books and homework
3) Did things the 'teachers way'

That about covered it! In the 7th grade email, I wanted to know if there were any missed work.

Anyway, glad that you are feeling at ease now!
Website for the jumpstart is http://www.energyparenting.com/ and there is an online forum, ebook of the workbook, which is a great place to start, podcasts, article. (Say Grinity sent you if you buy the membership)

Get started, because this is so much more than a chart system. OK - there is something you can do today. 20 times today, when he is doing something neutral or positive, describe calmly what you see him doing, as in:

You are building with legos. You are using red and green bricks. Your are building something tall.

CounterIntuitive, eh? I'm serious though, and keep track and see if you get to 20 times, ok?

AS for the teacher, time to start building that relationship with him/her. Say that you are grateful that he took the time to write, and that you are glad to know that he knows your son can be successful. Short and sweet.

Sounds like lining up an appointment for a Ruf consultion is worth doing. Especially if you and DH are going to be battling it out over medications. Hopefully by the time your appointment date comes up, you will be totally at ease!

Smiles,
Grinity

Grinity,
Thanks yet again for all the details and encouragement. I've got another email reply back from the teacher today, which I also appreciate the quick positive feedback on my chart thoughts. So I am going to keep the communications going with the school and also to work on more of these helpful approaches. Thanks again!

Hi MNTCMom - Glad to hear there is a better sounding school in your ds future.
Sometimes the teacher communications can be very helpful, sometimes puzzling, especially via email. When in doubt I usually give a call or pop my head into the class after school, when possible.
It seems to me a period without medicine in the new environment would be a better way to 'get a baseline' on your ds' behavior with more challenge. I think Grinity used that term/idea from her pediatrician in another thread.
It's just a logical process of elimination, you have questions as to whether more challenge/less boredom will help with focus for your ds, so it makes sense to give it a try. If you change too many factors at once, say environment + meds, you might not be able to tell which really makes the difference.
Re: charting, my ds is entering 4th next year and we are using a behavior jar, he gets a large marshmallow in it when I catch him doing something good, small treats at certain intervals and is working towards an overall larger treat at the end of a few weeks. He behaves pretty well at home, and does very well at school but needs work on social skills and interacting so when he makes an effort we want to recognize it, and he doesn't feel too old for it, at all! Ps, we had him officially assessed earlier this year, no adhd, but the social and a couple other issues to work on. The doctor was pretty surprised by his 'energy' levels...

Oh, and we did stop tae kwon do for a while, due to how far away it was, but have now found a closer place, really close to the school. Ds is excited a few friends from school go there. In the interim when he wasn't taking it, there were some definite issues with WAY too much energy.

Best of luck going forward to you and your ds!

Chris,
Thanks for pointing out the idea of baselining, just like introducing baby the food one kind at a time.
And I just love all these different ways of doing charting, a lot of things I just cannot think of by myself.

Emailed back and forth with the teacher couple times. There is a standard initial conference during second week of school. So we have agreed to work out / agree on a plan/chart by then.
Ok, first week of four days at school. During the last two days, he has gotten three warning tickets from various teachers, (also with sitting in a corner chair in front of the entire class), so he will need to spend time in a time-out kind of room next week. The school conduct policy I've just got this week stated different levels of elevated consequences starting with that one stay.
I was told that there was only one student during the entire last year reached the ("punishment severity") level as he has now in the first week. Now that the school and teachers are really strict on the penalty system rather than credit system, although they are welcoming any chart I am going to provide, I am seriously concerned at this point. The teacher also expressed concern that if the chart only method can work given his underlying issue.
To me this is a big eye-opener or something I did not make myself aware of (or merrily thinking some 2E procedures might have been thought of given the background of the whole thing that led me to this path) when I was investigating school last school year.
He is sad about the consequence, but is begging me to let him stay because he hates learning one thing only for the whole year at the regular pace. But I just suspect the strict rules that they have now will not be an effective behavioral change tool for him, to say the least.
Nonetheless, I am going to create a credit chart and send it to the teacher, and go from there.

Hi MNTCmom, Have you talked to any of the other parents at those 4 schools with 2e kids? We can't go to any of them because we are 1+ hour away but I have talked to other parents there. I was also going to suggest OT (Occupational Therapy) as in Sensory Processing Disorder. My DS7 has made incredible improvement in the areas you mentioned by doing different types of games, exercises, etc here at home. The blurting out is a maturity/boredom thing I was told. You can't blurt out answers you don't know. For my son it was understanding that if he wanted people to see how "smart" he was, he needed to follow the rules, raise his hands, and act mature. Then people would sit up and listen. And the OT has helped tremendously with him controlling himself. Also look up "The Mislabeled Child" by Drs Eide. The "hitting" other kids could be a lack of awareness with ones own body in space. He actually feels threatened and lashes out to protect himself. (????)

Thanks for all your words of wisdom Grinity! It is so nice to hear from parents who have BTDT.

UG! MNTC! Don't you just love those little tidbits of information? Perhaps that will be enough to convinse the school that this isn't the standard kid, and what works on standard kids won't work on him, and 'this has worked great at home, and maybe you could try it in school.' Honestly - most teachers really are looking to help the child!

How are things going now?
((pouty lip))
Grinity

This type of treatment of kids just gets my blood boiling.

Grinity hits the nail right on the head!!

hkc75, Thanks for the ideas on reaching out to other 2E parents at the school and the OT idea.
Grinity and Austin, Thanks again for all the support.
I just had this parent-teacher meeting this week. We talked about the general goals as of academic and social. I was glad that it was pointed out to me that he was young amongst his peers, as we were discussing his handwriting still being big and not lined up. Yes, we did start the chart this week and I was told of "improvement". DS8 has been pretty excited to tell me daily how his chart "scores" at school. I am also hoping the teachers will also "take clue" from the chart and approach/view him a little big differently. I am taking any size positive steps that I can get. And I'll be sure to report back on our progress.

im glad to hear that the teachers are sounding more positive. do you want to post or PM me the chart and see if we can brrainstorm into shaping it into a tool to help the teachers appreciate your ds? best wishes grinity

MNTCMom I pmd you.

After a promising week and a half ending with a doctor's visit during a school day, the last couple days were downhill quick. Basically he has achieved next level of warning milestone at school within the last two days. Well, the first one was when the teacher said he did not follow directions because he let the folders he was supposed to hand out being grabbed by another kid, and then he felt he was wrongly blamed and threw the chart sheet on the floor. The second is an accumulation effect from a teacher over the week due to that he kept asking a curriculum question (but) not being answered and then talked to other kids during the class. The third one was that he laughed at another kid's joke during the class and got warned of not laughing first; yet the other kid kept doing it, he tried hard not to laugh and even covered his mouth with hand, but of course, it was his bad choice to laugh at the end getting him the "official warning". It is all just what DS has told me and can be just hearsay.

I really need to work hard on him taking criticism well and not throwing a fit. And I have made it clear to him that no matter he is at right or wrong, throwing a fit can only make him wrong in the end. I also have to keep reminding him not to talk to other kids during class. But when he told me the last case, he was crying badly and holding his head as if having a headache. Growing up so far, he has not lied yet, and I know that crying was not fake. I have pointed out in the past right on the spot when he tried to take less responsibility in matters. If he was trying to use today's crying to shift his responsibility, I think he has succeeded.

Oh, he has been forgetting bringing some of the homework home almost every other day, although every day when I picked him up, I asked if he had packed all his homework.

During the first week of school, we signed a pledge to get out of the program if having problems academically and/or behaviorally. At our school beginning class parents-teachers meeting, it was brought up by another parent about GT kids being GT are bound to have some behavior issues, and what are implications. The GT specialist described that they really work hard to not let that happen, especially so far no one has been transitioned out due to just behavior problem yet that (behavior) can impact academic side. The teacher said they understand kids can have behavior issues due to different reasons, but they had taught at Minneapolis school district for many years and seen plenty and they know how to handle. (This school DS is going to now is not in Minneapolis school district.)

But the more I think over the incidents, the more I wonder if he actually is having a social maturity issue as the more prominent problem. It is not like he has just turned evil-minded to have those bad behaviors to disturb other people. At the last school, even with his problem and boredom, the teachers always described him as polite and kind. I control what books he reads and what TV programs he watches, unless the book Brisingr he read last year (for AR) did something to him? Also he is very outgoing and says and acts what is on his mind. Combine that with being an 8yr-old among mostly 9yr-olds, and in a GT-expectation environment, his social skill issue really magnifies, as I see it.

Thank you so much for letting me vent here. I will keep going over the rules and reminding him. So wish I could be a fly on the wall with him at the school.

Dear MNTC Mom,

I don't comment a lot here, but your son's story has got to me. Is this teacher really trying to teach the gifted mind? or is he trying to run a class for high achieving children?

As you said, your son is not evil-minded. So what is the teacher doing to try to TEACH your son about self-control and resilience? Anyone teaching gifted kids should know that part of the privilege of working with such creative and unusual thinkers is going to be working with some creative and unusual behaviors. If I could go back in time with our DS12 (ADD and not on meds when in primary school), I would ask the following questions earlier:

Are the consequences you have imposed working? If not, I'm assuming that you will try a different approach.

What strategies have you used to teach respect and integrity to your highly intelligent and sensitive children in the past?

How are you fostering cooperation and collaboration in the classroom? These are qualities that are essential for getting along in the world today.

Just so you know, our DS12 is hilarious, outgoing, very sensitive, very unconventional, and not motivated by criticism or peer pressure. He's fun to live with and I think will be a well-liked and creative adult if he can continue to believe in himself. His third grade teacher had him thinking that he was bad at school and unlikeable - a dangerous thing to me.

Hang in there, and don't let any teacher try to tell you about medication! We did decide to go for medication this fall (12 yrs old) because we felt that our son's lack of focus was beginning to affect his ability to develop the higher critical thinking skills he will need. But not because he interrupts people.

Enjoy your creative kid!