Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Update (Mixed Bag)

Hopefully I won't let this get too long

So we did have a good meeting with DS's first grade teacher. That was about three weeks ago. We have been trying various techniques to engage DS including special after school work. Sometimes it worked great, but sometimes not so much.

The last couple of weeks have been challenging as we're definitely seeing signs of frustration from DS. There is some acting out, but that is almost exclusively at home. Kriston warned us of this, so it wasn't totally unexpected. His level of homework hasn't really changed, so compared to what we hoped for (being able to learn new things) he's largely reviewing material he's known for a while. It got to the point where DW and I were asking ourselves what other possible alternatives might there be. We're still waiting for the official gifted identification process to complete, but it'll be mid-year before we really have a formal GIEP established. For a majority of this year, we're probably working without PA's "official" gifted label. (We're not planning on any changes until we get identified)

Our personal frustration comes from not seeing DS challenged at school. It is still early in the year, but we were hoping that after our last discussion we'd have more differentiation. We do a lot of extra-circular activities where you can see him get very enthusiastic to learn. After checking out local private schools, they really don't seem to be an option for us (one tuition we might be able to swing, but there is nothing that to make me think we won't have 2 more in that same boat down the road). Not to mention that private school is a risk and doesn't guarantee that he'll get what he needs. DW has now brought up homeschooling which, frankly, floored me because she was pretty adamant against HS up until now. The closest gifted charter school is, unfortunately, 1.5 hours away.

DW did a one-on-one meeting with the teacher this morning which went pretty well. She's going to talk to the math specialist about DS... Reading groups should be established shortly.

So it's a mixed bag, and it's not all doom and gloom but it's not as peachy as I'd hope for. Again, I think the teacher is doing the best she can given the student:teacher ratio and her framework. It just appears to take a really, really LONG time to get adjustments made and it's frustrating to us and DS. We're not looking for perfect. Just a situation where he's learning some new things.

JB

GOod luck JBDad. Things will probably get better once you are through all the hoops of getting the gifted label and having a formal GIEP.

I'm sorry things are so frustrating right now. Hopefully, with the GIEP, things will start falling into place better. Your biggest frustration (seeing that your son is not challenged in school) is my biggest worry for when DS4 starts school. I wish you luck!

As an aside about charter schools, I recently became involved in a STEM charter that's set to open in fall 2009 for kindergarten. It is not a gifted school, but I think its learner-centered philosophy, along with the STEM focus, would be better for our DS than our local overcrowded schools. It's 40 minutes away from us, so we haven't completely decided yet, but it's sort of nice to be in on some of the planning - i can always give my 2-cents. I'm figuring that we're going to have to squeeze as much out of any school we go to, no matter what it's designation, so i'm just looking for the one with the most juice. (And homeschooling will be our backup.) FYI - I'm thinking that the start-up charter schools won't have much press, since they don't have funding yet (we stumbled upon it). I guess I just wanted to say there might be some things out there that we're just not aware of yet.

Hi JB

I think things will get better, as long as you and your DW stay involved, and augment at home. Our DS6 started acting out more at home, not a lot just wineing(SP). The school he goes to offered parent classes, and my DW went, the school pyscologist (Ok the apple fell a long way from this tree) brought up that many 1st year studnets may act out at home this year. It was becaue of the new demands of an all day school, its a big change for them. In regards to being chalanged, its hard to say. Our DS6 is fine with the work, but he already knows the math. However there is some depth to the program at his school. It's not hard by any means, but it has a solid fundation. I am waiting until DS6 complaines, or until November when we meet with his teacher. It's hard to know what to do. DS6 does 3rd grade work at home (We do it for fun) and 2nd grade at work in school. I asked him if he thought school was hard enough and he said yes. How does your son feel about the school work? Can you add to it at home? We can just stay on top of things and adjust where we can.

Well...

I can't help but wonder if those many 1st year kids acting out might not juse be the GT ones who aren't challenged for the first time and for all doggone day.

When a child who has never acted out before starts falling apart quite obviously, I think that chalking it up to some sort of "normal" adjustment is an insufficient response. Especially when the child states quite clearly that school isn't working for him and can elucidate why not!

Sorry to be a skeptic, Edwin, but just because the school psychologist says it doesn't necessarily make me believe it. You know?

That's not to say the situation won't improve. It might. I hope it does. But I think having some alternative solutions in case it doesn't is smart, too.

A lot of the times when we find a way to label something differently, DS responds a lot better. Naps--when he thought he was too old for naps--became "quiet time". Nothing else really changed. When he comes home from school, if he's noticeably tired, he gets "brain break".

Today he actually got what appeared to be differentiated homework from his teacher and I was pleasantly surprised. DW presented it as "complicated math" and he was very excited about it. This was in addition to his normal (easy to him) math sheet. When he found out that only one sheet was "complicated math" he was a little disappointed, but accepted it. We wouldn't have drawn any attention to it except for the fact that only he and one other student are getting these extra math sheets. They are relatively open ended so he can (and does) make them as complicated as he wants.

Edwin, we do similar things at home with respect to math at about second/third grade level. Biology--a recent interest of his--is very, very advanced. Even his pysch noted about how DS has some real vertical knowledge. Tonight I think I hit a home run when I used powers of twos (math) to show cell division (biology/reproduction).

One of the interesting things that we're noticing is that he loves writing stories. Help me if we have another writer in the family!

We're hoping things get better too. This time, though, I did get confirmation that the teacher talked with the math specialist (as she said she would) and we got more appropriate homework. I hope that's a sign that we're starting to get through.

JB

Maybe the psych is right, maybe wrong, I'll bet they are well intentioned for sure.
The road to........ Sorry for the cynicism, all, but I've always taken ALL the advice I've been given. I certainly haven't USED it all.

You do know your child best, so keep looking into and just trust your own gut.

I did NOT trust my gut last year because the teacher was thought of as one of the best in the district. I thought she MUST know better than me. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.....
Who suffered? Not me. Not her.
Okay, I will *step off*, now.


The way I've interpreted STEM is that it's a movement to support kids who are talented and/or interested in: Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. Who are those kids.....yeah...........

My only concern would be; is it really STEM-like......

But, wow, caught my interest-Big Time!

We crossposted!

It could also be getting used to the school day. If that's the deal, it should be dying down soon.

Sounds like your teachers are really working for you guys. That's good to hear.

Hi Kriston

I would normally agree with you on this. And I don't fully disagree. (Lets see how much more vague I can be, lol) In our cased it may be true, our DS6 is very happy at school. The school is for HG kids. In discussions with some of the parents only some have some behavior issues, most seem minor. I consider ours a minor one, I just never considered that being at a new school might make him more sensitive, tired, irretable, etc... It could also be the 45min to 1 hr drive each way, or just normal 6 year old behavior. However you are correct that if a child is stating that things are not well with school and then they also start acting out, it's most likly the school.

I had to re-read JBs post to see if his son was upset with the school, or if they where upset with the lack of challange they saw. Like us I was hoiping for more challange, but since my DS6 seems ok, how much of this is my issue. I am waiting to see.

I am not saying that my issue is the same as JBdads, it was just an observation, and an interesting point brought up in the parenting class offered at the school for new parents.

So far I am very happy with the school.

As far as liking school goes...

I think that overall he likes it. Certainly he's getting things like recess (socialization time with peers), Spanish, Art, Gym, etc., that he wasn't getting before and wouldn't have got if he went into K.

We've observed some negative behavior with homework that I mentioned before. Things that he obviously knows that might be 8 math problems he'll take FOR-EVER to do. Finding the right motivation for him to do that work is tough, but we are sometimes successful with it. When he's motivated to do it, it's done in less than 5 minutes. I think it's important for him to do enough practice work so that he's proficient with the concept, but at least right now that's always the case.

Kriston, it's hard to tell if the behavioral issues are due to a long day and being young or not. We're not sure. DW always says that he behaves exactly like he's watched too much TV. That analogy of having to watch a movie in slow motion when you already know the ending... and the we get a boy who half the time is bouncing off the walls when I get home.

At any rate, this forum is at least a place where I can vent!

Thanks.

JB

Math seems to be the hardest. We have decided to take DD8 out for math hour and the school will apply the grade we give her to her final report.

This is working out better than I expected it would and I had high expectations!

JB

Glad to hear about the math, it sounds like they are trying. Every child is so different. DS6 is not into biology, the odd thing is that he has no one focus. He now likes his audio encylopedia, or just random factoids. Its great that your son loves writing, our DS would love to tell me a story and have me write it for him. I am working on trying to get him to write it himself.

We're going through a lot of what many, many others have gone through before I think (Are we approaching this the right way? Are we giving him what he needs? Is he happy? etc.). Some of it is that this process moves really, really slow and that is very frustrating to us as parents.

So DS is mostly, but not completely happy. The melt downs and acting out are almost exclusively at home which may be partially due to being 5.5. We have also seen some other negative behaviors develop that we want to nip in the bud. Like not wanting to try something hard because he can't do it perfectly the first time. We used to have a little of that. Lately we've had a LOT. We also observe a huge change in his demeanor if you talk about doing more advanced reading and math. He'll get very passionate about it to the point where he comes home and it's "dad can we do biology?" "can we do math?" I think he's a little disappointed with some parts of school.

Yes, we'd prefer that he be challenged a little more academically. I'd say that it's more that we are frustrated with the system, but there is some noticeable effect on the child.

JB

This is why we were looking at other potential alternatives because I think realistically we know the GIEP is only a partial solution. We're hopeful, but realistic.

Since this summer we've started to do a lot more educational family trips too... the zoo, Body Worlds, Science Center, etc. It's actually been a lot of fun. That part of parenthood I'm thoroughly enyoying! We're also scheduled for C-MITES next month...

JB

I think being 5.5 in full-day school is almost certainly a contributing factor. The "slow motion movie" thing (nice analogy! ) is also a good bet. More challenge generally cures the latter but not the former. Giving more challenging work is probably a good way to find out what the problem is, actually.

As for the observation of the school psych: honestly, I think I tend to doubt what school professionals say whenever they're in the position to be addressing large numbers of parents about general problems kids may be having. Anything they say is necessarily geared to the "average kid" (whatever that is...) and is not necessarily relevant to any one specific kid. Especially not an HG+ kid! It just means to me that I should take with a grain of salt anything they say. I don't mean to be unfair; I'm just trying to be realistic. We're not really their usual audience!

Generally, I don't like generalizations....hee hee...

But unfortunately I think that's a good way to sum up the issue many of us here, have.
I think it can be dicey if they misapply that to some of the situations our kids find themselves in.

Yeah. It's just too easy to dismiss major problems as "adjustment issues." I know my kid--his behavior problems and anger issues and depression were not some minor "adjustment." They were a radical personality and behavioral shift...which resolved completely once he left the school situation. Pretty obvious, no!?! And it was clear that more time to "adjust" wasn't going to help. Especially since he had spent one day a week in a full-day pre-K class and had not had any problems there. (Of course, by the time the full-day class started, they had gotten good about challenging him at the pre-K...)

Are JBDad's child's issues major or minor? I can't say, of course. Maybe even he can't say (yet?). But I do think it pays to take behavior problems pretty seriously to start. Don't do anything rash, of course, but I sure wouldn't dismiss it either. I think JBD's approach is pretty smart.

From what I've seen, if you think a change is in order for your child, it probably is. What change depends on the child and what options are available. You might need something as simple as harder homework or as drastic as a radical change in the school environment. But ultimately, if you think the situation isn't working for your child, it probably isn't.

I haven't been posting much but I can echo with Kriston that the anger and frustration issues I have seen in DS5.5 since he began school are not just normal adjustment issues. I know that in my gut.

In K, the teacher now allows my son to fit in the role of teacher's pet. He reads books to the other children when he has completed his work. He tells me that he enjoys this activity in an otherwise boring morning. He has also had many behavior issues (knows as strikes in his class)for pushing incidents, hugging a friend too tight, talking too much, etc.

In 1st grade, the teacher is emphasizing his need to work in groups--I do agree with this but making tally marks of objects isn't really DS5.5's idea of fun math. He also tells me that he spends most of his day "just sitting around learning nothing". They are supposed to start reading groups this week but DS says that no one has actually listened to him read yet so he doesn't know how they will find a group for him. My assumption is that he will just be in the highest reading group.

DS5.5 has also been calling himself "stupid", "a maniac", and "a trouble-maker" during the evenings. He has also been so negative and arguementative. There was also an incident last week when he actually bit a friend during recess. I was appalled. My son didn't even bite when he was a toddler--why would he start this now????

Sorry JBDad for hijacking your thread but I can't offer advice--only commiseration. I have decided to arrange meetings with his teachers and seek some professional counseling for DS5.5. I think he needs to talk with someone about his anger and frustration before it gets out of control. I need school to work--I love my job and don't want to homeschool. It also seems like the gifted private school I was hoping would work out for next might not get off the ground.

At guess at this point we can sit and wait together. It has to get better. It must get better.

Oh, I'm so sorry, crisc! My heart breaks for you!

Do not give it a second thought! Sharing our experiences is what makes this forum so helpful.

And I'll return the commiseration....

JB

Me too Crisc. You may remember our story last year was very similar. I think you have a good plan. In our case the problem wasn't caused by boredom, or the teacher totally not getting C and doubting her high intelligence-overtly!-, or the fact that she wasn't provided with appropriate learning materials....It was a combination of all three. And who she is just made a bad situation that much worse.
Play therapy with a psyd. who understood that she is truly brilliant and TREATED HER THAT WAY....was a life saver for us.

However, I have to say(and I am a person with very few regrets) I totally regret not pulling her out. It was hands down one of the worst decisions I ever made in my life. I had no way of TRULY knowing what was causing the disress and I did the best I could with what I had......
But because of how she changed when school ended and how great things are this year, It's clear I should have trusted my intuition, but oh, how I struggled with it!

JB dad and especially you Crisc, sound like you have similar situations......but only you are privy to all the facts and who your child is.

Good luck and trust your gut

((hugs))

Yeah, exactly. And he got his first "yellow card" yesterday for a pushing incident. (The have cards that go yellow and red for various infractions.) Now it appears that this was a relatively minor incident, but we completely support the teacher's call and had DS apologize to her today. I am hoping this was a "one very bad day" type of incident. He did have a very, very bad day and was on restriction for the entire day before even catching the bus. Happens to the best of us.

And then there was the last library day where he picked out what I'd describe as a very "angry" book. I forget the title but it was a picture book (early reader book) about bunnies and a hunter and one hunter getting shot at or something. Actually very violent pictures. We didn't want to read too, too much into it, but it was suprising to us. DW said that she thinks he was angry...

JB

Re-reading what I wrote above, though overall he is pretty happy. Don't want to make it sound like a dire case. We just do have ups and downs with very intense down periods. And fretful parents!

JB

We're having a lot of behavior issues and are also seeking professional help. One this time that has experience with gifted kids, even though she's about an hour drive one way. And, not on insurance. But, we've just go to find the source for this. So, I am also commiserating and waiting and trying not to think too much about it. However, his behavior this week has been much, much better and he's on fall break. Coincidence? We'll see when he goes back to school on Monday. He brought home the book "Mom, You're Fired" last week. Might be an important clue.

I am actually surprised that my DS5.5 isn't refusing to do the easy homework papers yet. Each one takes less than a minute to complete unless he has to draw a picture---then he takes more like 2 minutes to scribble something quickly.

I agree JBDad-- it's not all awful at our house. There are some great times when my DS is happy. He actually seems to enjoy telling me about the details of his day and he seems to enjoy the socialization (when he is not biting or pushing, of course )

Wow--it sounds like a lot of the kids DS's age are having a hard time of it. I feel really lucky that we haven't had any behavior problems at all, in fact he seems eager to do his homework this year (unlike last year.)

I almost feel like I shouldn't talk about how well things are going; I might jinx it

ROFL!

Yeah, Dottie, K-3 is definately the worst! (said the mom with the third grader, hopefully )

So much depends on personality. Some kids tolerate drudge work they already understand and some just don't. Some would rather fight for an hour than spend 5 minutes doing the work. <shrug> Just how they're built.

The behavior problems seem far more troublesome to me. I really think those issues tend to be sincere cries for help from HG+ kids. Not always, of course--every child is different. But I think the anger and lashing out more often than not are signs that something isn't working, and isn't working in a big way.

Just my NSHO...

NSHO....hee hee hee.....

Here's the deal though. Number one is totally steady eddie. I think her report said something about her crazy attention span even during ridiculously mundane and repetitive tasks. She would never act out or complain at school. And she never complained to me until I started to give her other options about a year ago. Once she found out what she had been missing, yeah she started complaining to me, but never at school.

Number two has a short fuse and is more likely to rage: "2+2.......I'm mad as heck and I'm not takin it anymore!".

Do we just accomodate the squeaky wheel. Number one left to tolerate an inadequate learning environment just because she will?

Making a point mind you. Currently, the school is going to great lengths in an attempt to accomodate both of them......now.

Nope. I think you accomodate both of them, naturally.

I just think that a child who acts out is SCREAMING that something is wrong. A child who is not acting out may be in just as much trouble, and I think you worry about that one, too. But my big worry in this particular thread is the child who is *even* acting out and is *still* pooh-poohed.

We had this problem with our DS6 for a while. We approached it by persuading him to confront his fears when he was displaying perfectionist behaviors.

I recall that writing the letter K started a huge tantrum one evening. I wouldn't give in. He had to write a K, and that was all there was to it. He sobbed and sobbed and eventually wrote the letter. I said "Hurray! You tried hard and you succeeded!" and told him he was free to go watch TV or whatever. Instead, he wrote some more Ks, still crying. I kept telling him how proud I was of him.

Next day, he came home from kindergarten beaming and all proud of what he had done during free time: he had filled an entire piece of paper with the letter K.

It's been a while since I've seen him display that type of perfectionist behavior. Things may change when work gets more challenging, but for now, he simply attempts something without complaining.

Also, it took him a while to get used to the long school day (he went to an all-day kindergarten in a 2nd language immersion school).

He's at a new ability-based school this year and I'm seeing all kinds of improvements in reading and writing. He isn't mathy like his brother yet is getting very high scores on all of his math work.

<Segue to soapbox>

Your post has reminded me yet again of the huge deficiencies in our K-12 education system. We have a near-obsessive focus on slow learners in the lower grades and a ridiculous number of students finishing high school with a 4.0 or higher average, including high marks in a fistful of so-called AP "college level" classes. I wonder how many of these straight-A students could really and truly solve a complex word problem in calculus or write a decent essay on propaganda and the fifth amendment. This mess is destroying our national brain pool, which I figure is up to 20% of our students.

I had a bit of an online debate at the NY Times education blog site last week. This summary is simplified somewhat, but:

A teacher of an AP class had written a piece that defended grading tests on a curve (if 59% was the highest score, then 59% was an A). Some college-level faculty who wrote comments were very critical of this practice. Most complained that leading B/C/D students to believe that they were A students was unfair to the students, their future employers, and their future professors. The other side of the debate argued about the importance of building self-esteem and not wanting to crush spirits in students who were accustomed to getting As. <sigh> I figure they're just building these kids up for an excruciatingly painful experience later, when they go to college or to work.

And meanwhile, the gifted students still aren't getting much out of the experience, and are, in particular, not learning what it really takes to turn in superior work in the real world.

Okay, I'll climb off the soapbox now!

Val

Argh. How awful.

My eldest was a big troublemaker in kindergarten. Part of the problem was personality, but part of it was the subject matter he had to study. He was on chapter books and division, and his class was putting its collective finger on the letter B and counting 10 objects. The second language part of the day helped, but not enough, I think. The school was also very rigid in its disciplinary policies, which I think is a major contributor to problems with kids. When expectations are unrealistic, it's no wonder that they have problems!

So, I guess what I'm saying is to check into the expectations of the school. I used to tell my DS that grownups can be wrong sometimes. This seemed to soothe him. It meant a lot for him just to hear someone acknowledge his point of view and say "I agree; the teacher was wrong that time." It also made him more receptive to hearing that the teacher was right another time.

Now he comes home from his new school enthusiastic and happy. I'm writing this to say, don't despair! School can work. I hope your gifted school works out. My advice: see if you can help the people trying to get it off the ground.

Val

Crisc, you are in really tough situation. If the problems started when he went to school then the problem is most likely school. I would worry that consulting gets you only that far. What needs to be fixed is the school situation and hopefully everything else will fall in place. Of course, I have NO idea how to make the school a better place for him.

JBDad, I think it's really hard to get a good match for HG+ in the early years. DS6 is not in PS simply because I just couldn't see how they could make it work even if they really, really tried. They would have to skip him 2 years and put him with 8 and soon 9 year olds (noway he could make it socially) and still accelerate him in math. BTW I just saw what a son of a friend of mine does in the 2nd grade. They are learning how to do 8+7. Ouch.

DS6 was always a perfectionist, but a year ago when he started K in Montessori it really hit big time. Things were quite bad here. Fortunately it has been much, much better since. We still run into problems and it may never go completely away but it's nowhere close to where we were last fall. Last week he got only 10 out 12 questions on his CyberEd test correct (he missed one and pressed a wrong button once) and he was happy about it. I was ready to throw a party!

Crisc, sorry to hear of your situation, my DW now is a TA at a pretty good public school. The school is pretty good and so are the teachers, I am always in shock about how many issues they do have. What I am seeing is that in k-3 there are adjustments. My DW also TAs for the 3rd grade. The kids just seem to fall in line more. I agree with Kriston that what might be normal child behavior for some , is not for the HG child. A poor fit is a poor it, and why should our children be made to go with the a program that is a big mis match. It's the nature of educating the masses, vs one-on one. It's teachers understanding that the HG population does not fit wihin the curve. Last year I had a hard time explaning this to my DW. A teacher may have never encounter children like ours, many are ill prepared. And we must always remember that in K and 1 many teachers get the "My child is gifted, what are you going to do about it" from many a parent. What is good on this board is that we can share our experances, and relize we are not alone in our advocation for our children. I see a common thread that after 3rd grade some of these issues go away, I would be very sad to learn that it was because children now resign themselves to what is expected rather then what they can do.I wish I had an answer for Crisc, JB, or even myself. The best we can do is be vigilent, and do what we can do outside of the school. Last year my wife and I knew that our DS would not gain anything from K in regards to academics, but we supplimented, worked with the teacher, the school. It worked ok. Each year is a new trial. My favorite saying on this board is "Once you have seen one gifted child, you have seen one gifted child" For us we realize that the school system is not the place our child will learn the most, its at home. The school is just a tool, even if it can be a blunt one.

Yes Edwin.... and even blunt tools can cut. The tricky part is to know when that blunt tool is ok, applying pressure, or cutting.

Well said Edwin.

JB