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Ah! Interesting distinction.

The only problem I see with it is that the things my son seems to get wiggy about lately are mistakes, not Ability/Vision issues.

For example:

We played a math card game that was too hard for him--he just didn't have the requisite knowledge yet--and he got all upset about it. Threw a hissy fit, tears, the whole 9 yards. I didn't understand it at all.

"It's MY mistake," I said, "I just brought the game out too early for you because I didn't know any better." I told him that I wasn't upset about it (I really wasn't at all!), and asked, "Why are *you* so upset?"

He said he didn't like it that he didn't know enough to play it. He felt like he should have known more. Now, it was times tables stuff, and while we've been working on them a little here and there, he doesn't yet have them down. I thought the card game would be a tool for *teaching* the times tables, but I think it's really for those who have *mastered* them to practice with. But he was a wreck about it.

So is that a Vision issue? It sounds like perfectionism to me...

hummm...
You also have to take into account for your DS that his Intellect far outstips his proccessing speed - so he has lots and lots of experiences where he feels he 'should' be able to do stuff that he hasn't been able to.

My guess is that his hissy fit is because he was reminded of his many experiences of this frustration. See if an hour or two after the hissy he seemed to 'have more attention' for the kinds of tasks that are usually difficult for him. If so, then I would say the hissy fit was a 'cleaning tornado' where a person cleans up old hurts to 'clear the deck.'

Hmm...Also interesting...

He's not usually been a frustrated kid. He has often frustrated the adults waiting for him, however! Parents and teachers have not always been understanding. But *he* hasn't typically been bothered by his speed issues at all.

However, you've got me thinking...He *is* bothered by *my* being bothered. So maybe he got upset in advance because he THOUGHT I would be upset. That's a possibility.

Hmmm...

We did have a talk about mistakes being a good thing provided you're doing your best. It's a sign you're being challenged and that you're learning. I talked with him about my perfectionism, and that I'm trying not to encourage that in him, but that it can be hard for me. Hopefully we can muddle through it together.

He did calm down, and I hope the talk helped. I am cheered by his "hard is good!" mantra, at least!

Thanks, Grinity. I appreciate your insights.

This is my dd too - I've waited for her for 8 years and her teachers are now seeing just how long she really takes to do things. What's upsetting is that they see this as lack of motivation rather than a real problem (which hopefully will be a changed perspective on their part in a couple of weeks...). Her preschool teachers used to send her down first to wash her hands before snack time because they knew that she would always be the last one back to the snack table. It was funny and cute then, but now in 3rd grade it's not so funny and she is just now realizing how slow she really is compared to her classmates.

Has she been tested, Mombot? I can't remember.

The WISC really changed my view of DS7's "dawdling." I got a lot more patient when I realized that he can't help the speed at which he moves. It's as much a part of him as his depth of understanding.

Yup, I posted about her in the testing thread. Considerably slower processing speed and yes, the testing has certainly helped me see how she does things in a different light. She does seem to have a great depth of understanding as well, but she can't and/or won't share that with the world at large unless she's ready. She'll often come out with information, thoughts on things days, weeks after she's read or heard or thought of something. Doesn't come out in testing, that's for sure.

I have some questions for you, Mombot, but I'll post over in the testing thread so that I don't hijack this one on your behalf...

Hi jojo -

I'm coming in a bit late on the topic, but wanted to respond a bit to what you and a couple other posters have said.

The first is that nothing in my experience in "From the Inside Out" speaks to skipping at all. I agree with 95% of what Kriston had to say about what I am saying, noting only that I was never grade skipped, not even in 9th grade. Yes, what I wrote is frightening. And stark - it was painful to write it, but because it does speak to the experience of many (but not even remotely all) underachievers, it had to get written.

You are not where my mother was. Your daughter is not where I was. And the resources both academic and interpersonal that exist today might well have made a huge difference in the isolation that both my mother and I faced. So, no, please do not despair! Think of it as a cautionary tale, rather than a horror story.

I'll disagree with Kriston's comment that "most kids who suffer from underachievement do so because they weren't challenged early enough." I believe that is an element, but not the key one. Unfortunately, the more I study this issue, the more I am concluding that there are some heavy duty personality issues involved that are hard to overcome.

I've worked with some families in home school situations and gifted school situations in which there was challenging material aplenty.

Obviously, there is far more out there to explore than I'm going to be able to touch on in a particular post - and I am certainly not going to pretend that I know your daughter!

So, three thoughts for you:
1) Let me assure you that skipping is not a particularly likely cause of underachievement, based on anything I have read or seen in my work.

2) Grinity is on target with the issue of challenges, generally speaking. It will be important for your daughter to acquire skills for learning/approaching topics that are difficult for her - and it is likely that only through such difficulty that she will effectively learn the "study skills," because otherwise they will have little or no utility to her until she hits a wall and is struggling - a hard time to have to learn them!

3) Behavior mod can turn into a very double edged sword very quickly. I would approach it carefully and use it sparingly.

That all said, in the traditional way of these things, Your Mileage May Vary!

Josh

Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions. I really appreciate your input into this prickly issue; it's been most thought provoking. The most useful issue raised by Josh and Grinity is acquiring learning skills/behaviours. My focus now is to develop strategies to teach both my girls how to learn, how to engage, how to complete tasks, etc. Earlier in the week, I started looking externally for help - but as my thinking has developed, I've realised that I cannot outsource this learning. I need to upskill myself so that I can practice and reinforce and model positive learning skills everyday.

Thank you for your thoughtful advice. It's been a good learning week for me and I'm feeling empowered rather than victimised. Woo hoo!!!

joojo

We deal with this very same issue at our house, too. I have to say that I have come to realize how complex an issue it is. There are so many reasons (and any combination of them) that could lead to a child withdrawing from challenge. I think our challenge as parents is to figure what the obstacles are and address them as best we can. It seems that you all have touched on a number of the issues. Mind if I make a list?

Reasons a GT child might avoid challenging work:

1. The challenge is not right for the child: Sensory integration based therapy uses an approach of "the just right challenge" in treatment. This means that the task has to be structured and set up by the therapist to give the child the "just right challenge" in terms of task demands for mastery or practice and the ability for achievement or success. I think this is very true of everything any child faces. No child wants to face a challenge that is just too hard to succeed at - too much work means withdrawing from the challenge. Too easy means there is no challenge and therefore no learning. We have to find the "just right challenge" for the child no matter what the task being mastered is; physical, mental, emotional, etc. It means finding a balance between what the child already knows and a little bit of a stretch for new learning.

2. Learning difficulties: these can take the form of many different obstacles. A child might have processing issues, visual spatial or language based disorders, motor dyspraxia, etc. There is quite a list of specific learning disorders which can influence a child's willingness and ability to face a challenge.

3. Medical issues: vision deficits, CAPD, neurological conditions, ADHD, etc. I believe you should always rule out any suspected underlying conditions when looking at behaviors that don't make sense.

4. Personality style: perfectionism, competitiveness, easy going and couldn't care less, highly sensitive and embarrassed, and so on. Some GT kids can, at a very young age, get the idea that they can and should be first and best at everything. Nature and nurture both play a role in this. Some kids are just naturally highly motivated to master everything in their path. Others are put off by the daunting task of "working" to master anything because everything has come so easily. It was pointed out to me that it is vital to praise the essence of the child, not an ability or skill that could be lost. There is research that was recently published about praising kids for their effort being more influential on later success than praising them for being smart. The research showed how the kids internalized that working harder equaled success and so they were more willing to put effort into learning something new or taking a test that was harder. Interesting stuff.

Please add to the list if I've left anything out. I find the discussion very helpful!