Hi all,

We seem to have an issue with our DS6 in that he appears to be very unwilling to actually work at anything in order to master it.

I've been expecting him to start reading for the last year and a half, but he just doesn't seem to get there. He went through a very brief period of being interested in early readers around easter (and scooted through them), but now vehemently resists being asked to try reading - although he's very happy to when he's confident that he already knows (sight words seem to work for him much better than phonics - he prefers to just know rather than have to work anything out). He'd like to be able to ride his bike without training wheels, but doesn't want to have to practice. He discovered addition earlier in the year and was very keen of writing up sums everywhere for a fortnight. But when I tried to introduce subtraction (thinking this would be something he'd like to know about as well) he felt that his world would end if he had to have it explained to him. He won't try new play equipment at the park if other children are watching - has to master it privately first.

Has anyone else had this problem? And does anyone have any ideas as to what to do about it? I can see this tendency potentially escalating into a serious problem.

Thanks for any thoughts.
BK

G'day BK,

I can emphathise about the "not trying" factor, but so far, have come up with very few solutions. Miss 7 refused to do her spelling work in class yesterday. Apparently, she just "didn't feel like it". When pushed, cajoled, encouraged and bribed, she said "I don't need to do spelling anyway because I'm skipping year 2 and going into year 5!" This was news to all of us! So I naturally thought that we (the teacher, principal, Miss 7 and I) might come up with a goal-oriented plan to get her to demonstrate a number of proficiencies this year so that she can skip next year (although probably not into year 5!). Her response after getting a sniff that she might actually have to do some work... "nah, I reckon I'll just stay in year 2" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Short term goals work for me, but apparently not for Miss 7 *groan* So I'm interested in any advice you might receive on the subject... jojo

Hi BK and jojo,
My son, now age 12, seems to have been born like this, but as Dr. Sylvia Rimm says, on page 116 of 'Why Bright Kids Get Poor Grades:'
"Schoolwork that is too easy can cause antoher dilemma. It is a frequent cause of Underachievement Syndrome for intellectually gifted children. Some bright children who enter first grade know most of the material to be covered in that grade, and they are legitimately and consistently bored during their entire fist years of school..."

The whole book is very worth reading, and helped me guide my son to a developing a good work ethic. Basically a good work ethic requires practice, and repeated challenges that are at the child's readiness level. By the time I figured out that there was trouble at our house, DS's 'readiness level' had shrunk to the point where almost every challenge was 'too easy' OR 'daunting.'

It's been a long hard road, as everything these kids do, they seem to do with gusto, but read the book, remember to talk about what a hard worker and strong curiosity-er your child is to them, but better, to other people when they think they aren't supposed to be listening. Also - you must insist that challenge be part of their life every day - even for 15 minutes at home with you - even if they scream and kick and tantrum. Develop a family motto that talks about what your family values, and include good work ethic in that motto.

Some of these kids can make very strong arguments because they have good verbal skills, but they are still the child, and although it's ok to listen to them up to a point, you MUST maitain an independent perspective, and cut them off when they are having a 'veiled tantrum.'

I just made up the idea of a 'veiled tantrum' and it's the kind of verbal onslaught you describe, jojo, where any other kid would be kicking or crying, but your kid is leading you both down the garden path of words that don't really hang together.

I read in a dog training book that the best way to get a dog to rely on you as it's master, is to take it out into the big unknown world. For my kid, a gradeskip into a situation that was actually too hard for him was pivitol in having him look to us, his parents for leadership. jojo - you may want to consider doing that gradeskip NOW. (If it's needed.)

BK - get your son's vision checked, by a straight opthamologist, but also by a behavioral optometrist. Reading troubles in bright kids should be checked out. My son loved anything where the goals were real overt - such as gaining experience levels in a video game.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I absolutely agree, especially the behavioral optometrist. I think is was actually Grinity that first suggested it and I didn't even know what a behavioral optometrist was. It took me a year to follow up with this for Little C after observing her. Then EandC mom was talking about it and it clicked that this could be the issue.

Just getting the glasses improved her vision, which improved her comfort reading and that also helped her confidence. Little C is like this too, she is struggling with perfectionist issues. I gently worked with her letting her know it's okay to make mistakes, etc.

Interestingly, her perfection issues cleared up quite a bit this summer....hmmmmmmmmmm.

Now she has a teacher and she says: "She really likes me mommy"! Consequently the perfectionism issues have subsided even more.

I think it's different for each child, but sometimes I think it's just so much more pronounced in children who are so self and socially aware.

Neato

I think this may be something I have to embrace. We've never pushed him, partly because it seemed setting up for trouble given an education system that's very set against early entry/acceleration, and partly because I didn't want to be one of those parents (oh dreadful hot-housers). If I was doing it again I would push.

That's what happened during his brief phase of enthusiasm for reading - he discovered the series that has reading levels marked on the back, and was full of himself for getting from Level 1 to Level 12 or so in about six weeks. And then it was over. Last week his teacher told me that some of the kids in the class are starting to read, and she's been getting them to read simple books to the class - but my boy isn't one of them. I've been wondering if he's been feeling a bit knocked off his perch, and is reacting by dropping out of the competition (as he might see it).

Okay. Hot-housing here I come. Once I figure out what it might involve. The teacher has already subtly suggested that his troubles are to do with parental pressure, so I might as well apply some.

BK

this is exactly where we were coming from, with overlays of old bible stories where the parents turn over the first-born males to the priests in my head. If I was going to send him to school then I HAD to force myself to trust them to do it THEIR way, and limit my parental responsibility to other areas of his life, like food and clothing. I think that if I hadn't been blamed for being 'different' in school, and still caried the confusion over being blamed, then I would have been able to calibrate my actions to the actual real situation in front of me better.


Go BK!
The Rimm book predicts that children who are underchallenged will behave in ways that trick everyone into thinking that the have too much pressure on them. Interesting, no?
Did you know that here are even levels and competitions for piano playing now?

Smiles,
Grinity

Oh dear. I've started reading articles and papers on underachievement and it's depressing/scaring the crap out of me (!!!!) What if a grade skip just sets Miss 7 up to fail? Josh Shaine's insider view on what underachievement looks and feels like to a child is seriously frightening...

http://www.geocities.com/josh_shaine/insideout.html

jojo

Well, as I understand it, most kids who suffer from underachievement do so because they weren't challenged early enough. So skipping 1st grade (or even 2nd or 3rd or 4th...) is relatively early intervention. Keep in mind that this ONE person's experience saw him being unchallenged and not understood by his parents or teacher for years and years! You're taking action loooooong before he saw action taken, when you can effect change. Josh wasn't skipped until 9th grade! BIG difference!

What an early grade skip can often accomplish is to help your daughter avoid many/most/all of the problems he is describing. If your DD is challenged early, she will learn to do homework, to think about things that are hard, to WORK. If she learns how to do those things, she will probably not have the sorts of problems that this man had as a child and teen.

Also, it seems like you missed his conclusion: he does not feel like a failure! He feels that the schools failed him, not that he failed. He has found that he can find meaningful work outside of school. He writes:


I think that last sentence is the most important part!

Oh. That article rather knocked away my generally flippant tone.

I prefer not to go there emotionally, but that's the great fear behind my thinking about my children's education. I've been trying to remember if there was ever a time I found school interesting, but I don't think there was. Having lived the underachiever experience I emphatically want to avoid that for my children. I agree Kriston - act early and avoid the pattern establishing.

I've told the boys to fortify themselves for the new regime - effort required on a daily basis - the joys of having to try hard, etc, etc and then some. They looked a bit bewildered, poor loves. I feel a bit bewildered myself. I really hope I'm up to it, especially tackling the education system, which I can see is going to be crucial but which I know I'm not cut out for by nature. Fortification all round.

I hear you, BKD.

I confess, that's probably the biggest reason that we're homeschooling. I just couldn't imagine all the years of advocacy we were/I was in for! It's really my nightmare, I'm afraid. I figured that if I were going to devote so much of my time and energy to my child's education, then I might as well do the teaching. Less aggravation for me. (Not that I think everyone should do what I'm doing--just my own personal way of coping...)

My son has a motto that he invented after he left public school: "hard is good." It makes me smile that he came up with that on his own!

We are having a bit of perfectionism cropping up lately, but we're dealing with it. I suspect some of that is inevitable with a kid like ours. Some of it is his personality, nature rather than nurture. But he's 7, so we can do a lot to minimize the problem. And I'd far rather deal with it now, when we can work through it and stress to him how great it is to make mistakes and learn from them, than to have him coast until he's a teen.

Yes, BKD, act early! Yes!

I agree with Kriston about personality playing a role in perfectionism. My friend has a ND daughter in 3rd grade who is having a really rough time at school because she's so hard on herself when she gets anything wrong - and of course she will since she's appropriately challenged! She's also hard on herself with sports, her appearance, etc.. But the school perfectionism is getting better with warm, understanding teachers. I think one main issue with our perfectionistic GT kids is they sometimes don't get to experience the fact that things turn out okay in the end, mistakes and all... An analogy I'm thinking of is someone with a specific fear, say of dogs. The only real way to get over that is to spend some time with dogs and challenge the fear, KWIM?

Don't read Josh Shaine about underachievement. He's kind of 'back in the '60s' on that topic. Now - if you can find a Shaine article about 'Non-Linear Thinkers' than post it here because it's great stuff. IF only he would get serious and write down the amazing things I hear him lecture about. ((Humor Alert))

Read Sylvia Rimm on underachievement. She tends to put a lot of it on the parent's laps, and then quietly say, 'well for gifted kids it just comes from being unaccomidated' but she's on the right track.

Getting off soapbox,
Grinity

Go BK! Step by step you'll get there. 'Hard is Good!'
In the begining you can 'cheat' by guiding them through the process of finding something interesting to study, as a case study in problem solving. You might like Susan Wienbrenner's teaching gifted children in the regular classroom, because it teaches a process for finding interesting problems. Or you can all leaf through the cataloge of www.teach12.com for topics of interest. (They may not be ready to get the info directly from the CDs and DVDs, but it may be just what you need to get excited about learning and stay one step ahead of them.)


Or you could take the opposite approach and sign them up for online Math, and let Aleks.com do the heavy lifting while you coach from the sidelines.

Eitherway, since you are as new to this as they are, the good news is that you can model the process of setting out on a journey and expecting bumps in the road, making course corrections on the way.

I heard somewhere that pilots are off course 90% of the time, but get there by making course corrections. Maybe a unit on Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families is a good place to start. ((LOL - don't get me started))

Then there is the advice from Joseph Campbell "Follow you bliss" - now that you've taken the time to remember that you never got excited by school, see if you can remember what did interest you. Due to genetics, there is a pretty good chance that if you enjoyed a topic, your kids will too. ((Hint: Lots of kids love things that go 'Boom' - as in Myth Busters, or programs from the nearest Universities' Chemistry Department))

Yippee!
Grinity

I do think that personality has a role in this, but I think that our personalities get shaped by our environments to some degree. An example from Dr. Rimm:


I saw a sweet little two year old yesterday, and heard myself say:"What a beautiful little girl you are!"

I was mortified. I am committed to praising character traits a person can develop, rather than 'facts' that a people just happens to be, such as smart, pretty. Not yesterday. Can you imagine how many times your friends ND daughter has heard, "What a pretty little girl you are" from well meaning strangers like me in her life time?

Just a thought - I could be totally off, LOL, (It happens)
Grinity

Good point, Grinity. I do try to refrain from using the Sm... word too much with DS. For some reason, I don't hold back from calling him cute - I never really thought about it before. And I mean cute from a purely physical standpoint! But there's probably a gender issue at play - he doesn't really care that much about being cute/handsome/whatever. Physical appearance is more integrated with girls' self-worth due to cultural pressure so you have to fight against that...

But in your case, the little girl's appearance is all you had to go by -- I don't think it's wrong to complement someone's appearance (including kids) if it comes from the heart and it's not overkill. It would be different if the adults she knew in her life only praised her for inborn traits rather than encouraging her to strive for being kind, hard-working, etc.

Oh I agree, Grin. I didn't mean to suggest that it's all personality. Only that I KNOW my son is being challenged--I'm right there! But he's still having some wiggy, perfectionist moments. I think some of that is just how he's wired. He likes things just so and always has.

I think back to when he was not even two and would line all his Hot Wheels cars up PERFECTLY. If we moved one a fraction of an inch, he'd cry out in frustration and HAVE to fix it. So some of this was there long before school challenge was ever an issue.

I make an effort to tell my kids that it's okay to not do well at something or even bomb at it. Some things are important, some aren't, and I try to teach them how to pick what's important and put their best effort into it.

Val

I could have said, "Aren't you well groomed!"
"Didn't you choose a nice dress?"


I'm going to try that next time - LOL!

I very consciously try to avoid the S word and focus on how well they tried at something. No spectacular results yet, but perhaps eventually.

Oh Mythbusters... I generally refer to it as "that dozey bloke's show", which doesn't put DH off at all. I just can't cope with how long it has to take and all the gratuitous blowing up. DS6 seems already to have a bit of a preference - he's asked us to tape the news for him, though I haven't agreed. He particularly likes politics and wars. I'll give DH the mission of discovering some way of learning more about world affairs that is reasonably appropriate for a 6YO. I know he's interested, but the news can be a bit hard core and I'm just not ready for him to learn about suicide bombers and pedophiles, eg. I'll also follow up some of the excellent suggestions you all have made, including the on-line maths - I think both boys might like that.

We've been to the local library today and armed ourselves with a stack of readers. Look out world (one hopes). From a practical perspective, reading has to be the first cab off the rank. They've both become desperate for chapter books, and there are only so many hours a day I can devote to reading The Famous Five.

I was dwelling (compulsive dweller) on my last post, amazed at how such obvious conclusions took such a long time coming. And based on past experience I'm pretty sure I can count on having more of those moments. What a pitiful reflection.

I don't think I've said yet how much I like this site, but would like to say so now, and how much I appreciate everyone's responses.

Cheers
BK

Kriston,
I do know what you mean. For DS12 I have vivid memories of him sitting on my lap and encouraging me to make drawings of lines going various ways. I would 'indulge' him for some time, and then get tired, and try to encourage him to make his own drawings. Talk about Rampant Emotionalism. Total Tantrums. I figured that that was 'just who he was' and went back to drawing out his dreams for him. Then I showed him how to use MSPaint, and he would sit for hours and hours with the magnifying glass on, going dot by dot. All well and good, except, he wasn't learning how to control a crayon or pencil like other kids his age would have taken the same energy to tackle. Then we all puzzled over why he had such poor pencil control.

If I had it to do again, I would have 20% less sympathetic to how frustrated he felt to be a little boy in a big world with big dreams, and put up with 20% more tantrums, and modeled 100% confidence that he can choose what he focuses his mind on. Nowadays when he says: "I can't go to sleep, I'm too wound up" I confidently say - directing your mind is a habit, that always needs to be developed. You get to decide where your mind goes. Send your mind to the calm, ready for sleep place with me for one minute.

Honest. i read it in a book! (The Mind that Changes Itself)

Are these kids driven? Yes, like most kids but sometimes even moreso.
Do these kids have an early awareness of standards that other kids aren't even thinking about? Yes! Yes! Yes!
Can this cut short certian chances for normal development? It didi for my son in the areas of fine motor, jumping off high things, bike riding.
To Paraphrase Friedman, from Earth is Flat: We have to learn to use our Imaginations, and not let our imaginations run us!

My compromise is that we rename those 'pedal to the metal' moments as Intensity + Percosious Vision (I+PV???) instead of perfectionism. Defining difference is that it isn't that the child feels that they are worthless unless X is perfect. They just are bound and determined to have it like their vision. Both can look like R.E. but the underneath is different.

After all, a lot of writers say that gifted folks have the same % of perfectionism as everyone else - so I think we need a seperate concept that explains the mechanism for look-alike behavior in gifted folks. Part of it is the Ability/Vision Gap. Part of it is so many years without peers. KWIM?

I hope that helps....

Grinity

Ah! Interesting distinction.

The only problem I see with it is that the things my son seems to get wiggy about lately are mistakes, not Ability/Vision issues.

For example:

We played a math card game that was too hard for him--he just didn't have the requisite knowledge yet--and he got all upset about it. Threw a hissy fit, tears, the whole 9 yards. I didn't understand it at all.

"It's MY mistake," I said, "I just brought the game out too early for you because I didn't know any better." I told him that I wasn't upset about it (I really wasn't at all!), and asked, "Why are *you* so upset?"

He said he didn't like it that he didn't know enough to play it. He felt like he should have known more. Now, it was times tables stuff, and while we've been working on them a little here and there, he doesn't yet have them down. I thought the card game would be a tool for *teaching* the times tables, but I think it's really for those who have *mastered* them to practice with. But he was a wreck about it.

So is that a Vision issue? It sounds like perfectionism to me...

hummm...
You also have to take into account for your DS that his Intellect far outstips his proccessing speed - so he has lots and lots of experiences where he feels he 'should' be able to do stuff that he hasn't been able to.

My guess is that his hissy fit is because he was reminded of his many experiences of this frustration. See if an hour or two after the hissy he seemed to 'have more attention' for the kinds of tasks that are usually difficult for him. If so, then I would say the hissy fit was a 'cleaning tornado' where a person cleans up old hurts to 'clear the deck.'

Hmm...Also interesting...

He's not usually been a frustrated kid. He has often frustrated the adults waiting for him, however! Parents and teachers have not always been understanding. But *he* hasn't typically been bothered by his speed issues at all.

However, you've got me thinking...He *is* bothered by *my* being bothered. So maybe he got upset in advance because he THOUGHT I would be upset. That's a possibility.

Hmmm...

We did have a talk about mistakes being a good thing provided you're doing your best. It's a sign you're being challenged and that you're learning. I talked with him about my perfectionism, and that I'm trying not to encourage that in him, but that it can be hard for me. Hopefully we can muddle through it together.

He did calm down, and I hope the talk helped. I am cheered by his "hard is good!" mantra, at least!

Thanks, Grinity. I appreciate your insights.

This is my dd too - I've waited for her for 8 years and her teachers are now seeing just how long she really takes to do things. What's upsetting is that they see this as lack of motivation rather than a real problem (which hopefully will be a changed perspective on their part in a couple of weeks...). Her preschool teachers used to send her down first to wash her hands before snack time because they knew that she would always be the last one back to the snack table. It was funny and cute then, but now in 3rd grade it's not so funny and she is just now realizing how slow she really is compared to her classmates.

Has she been tested, Mombot? I can't remember.

The WISC really changed my view of DS7's "dawdling." I got a lot more patient when I realized that he can't help the speed at which he moves. It's as much a part of him as his depth of understanding.

Yup, I posted about her in the testing thread. Considerably slower processing speed and yes, the testing has certainly helped me see how she does things in a different light. She does seem to have a great depth of understanding as well, but she can't and/or won't share that with the world at large unless she's ready. She'll often come out with information, thoughts on things days, weeks after she's read or heard or thought of something. Doesn't come out in testing, that's for sure.

I have some questions for you, Mombot, but I'll post over in the testing thread so that I don't hijack this one on your behalf...

Hi jojo -

I'm coming in a bit late on the topic, but wanted to respond a bit to what you and a couple other posters have said.

The first is that nothing in my experience in "From the Inside Out" speaks to skipping at all. I agree with 95% of what Kriston had to say about what I am saying, noting only that I was never grade skipped, not even in 9th grade. Yes, what I wrote is frightening. And stark - it was painful to write it, but because it does speak to the experience of many (but not even remotely all) underachievers, it had to get written.

You are not where my mother was. Your daughter is not where I was. And the resources both academic and interpersonal that exist today might well have made a huge difference in the isolation that both my mother and I faced. So, no, please do not despair! Think of it as a cautionary tale, rather than a horror story.

I'll disagree with Kriston's comment that "most kids who suffer from underachievement do so because they weren't challenged early enough." I believe that is an element, but not the key one. Unfortunately, the more I study this issue, the more I am concluding that there are some heavy duty personality issues involved that are hard to overcome.

I've worked with some families in home school situations and gifted school situations in which there was challenging material aplenty.

Obviously, there is far more out there to explore than I'm going to be able to touch on in a particular post - and I am certainly not going to pretend that I know your daughter!

So, three thoughts for you:
1) Let me assure you that skipping is not a particularly likely cause of underachievement, based on anything I have read or seen in my work.

2) Grinity is on target with the issue of challenges, generally speaking. It will be important for your daughter to acquire skills for learning/approaching topics that are difficult for her - and it is likely that only through such difficulty that she will effectively learn the "study skills," because otherwise they will have little or no utility to her until she hits a wall and is struggling - a hard time to have to learn them!

3) Behavior mod can turn into a very double edged sword very quickly. I would approach it carefully and use it sparingly.

That all said, in the traditional way of these things, Your Mileage May Vary!

Josh

Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions. I really appreciate your input into this prickly issue; it's been most thought provoking. The most useful issue raised by Josh and Grinity is acquiring learning skills/behaviours. My focus now is to develop strategies to teach both my girls how to learn, how to engage, how to complete tasks, etc. Earlier in the week, I started looking externally for help - but as my thinking has developed, I've realised that I cannot outsource this learning. I need to upskill myself so that I can practice and reinforce and model positive learning skills everyday.

Thank you for your thoughtful advice. It's been a good learning week for me and I'm feeling empowered rather than victimised. Woo hoo!!!

joojo

We deal with this very same issue at our house, too. I have to say that I have come to realize how complex an issue it is. There are so many reasons (and any combination of them) that could lead to a child withdrawing from challenge. I think our challenge as parents is to figure what the obstacles are and address them as best we can. It seems that you all have touched on a number of the issues. Mind if I make a list?

Reasons a GT child might avoid challenging work:

1. The challenge is not right for the child: Sensory integration based therapy uses an approach of "the just right challenge" in treatment. This means that the task has to be structured and set up by the therapist to give the child the "just right challenge" in terms of task demands for mastery or practice and the ability for achievement or success. I think this is very true of everything any child faces. No child wants to face a challenge that is just too hard to succeed at - too much work means withdrawing from the challenge. Too easy means there is no challenge and therefore no learning. We have to find the "just right challenge" for the child no matter what the task being mastered is; physical, mental, emotional, etc. It means finding a balance between what the child already knows and a little bit of a stretch for new learning.

2. Learning difficulties: these can take the form of many different obstacles. A child might have processing issues, visual spatial or language based disorders, motor dyspraxia, etc. There is quite a list of specific learning disorders which can influence a child's willingness and ability to face a challenge.

3. Medical issues: vision deficits, CAPD, neurological conditions, ADHD, etc. I believe you should always rule out any suspected underlying conditions when looking at behaviors that don't make sense.

4. Personality style: perfectionism, competitiveness, easy going and couldn't care less, highly sensitive and embarrassed, and so on. Some GT kids can, at a very young age, get the idea that they can and should be first and best at everything. Nature and nurture both play a role in this. Some kids are just naturally highly motivated to master everything in their path. Others are put off by the daunting task of "working" to master anything because everything has come so easily. It was pointed out to me that it is vital to praise the essence of the child, not an ability or skill that could be lost. There is research that was recently published about praising kids for their effort being more influential on later success than praising them for being smart. The research showed how the kids internalized that working harder equaled success and so they were more willing to put effort into learning something new or taking a test that was harder. Interesting stuff.

Please add to the list if I've left anything out. I find the discussion very helpful!

And to understand in the first place. Dooblebug I'm reasonably confident that I could cope with the challenges of the first three items on your list, though not necessarily in a way that would leave anyone gasping with admiration at my efficiency. But weaving that last one into the mix is what I find most daunting, especially when there are all the other personalities that need to be woven in as well: the teachers, friends, relatives etc who impact on/are impacted on by my children. And particularly when a significant amount of their time is spent away from me.

Josh, you advise not despairing. Although it's a stronger word than I would use, I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion of the article that JoJo linked to, which suggested that there are many paths to fulfillment without success at school. Schooling opens up opportunities (learning and life) which may not be achievable any other way for many people, particularly if their confidence has been eroded by their school experience. And if the 50% of successful (whatever that means exactly) Americans who didn't arrive via schooling are mostly confident, entrepreneurial extroverts, then the statistic isn't a particularly shining ray of hope for badly bruised introverts.

I'm quite taken with the idea of recognition for effort and think it makes a lot of sense, so was a little surprised on the weekend when a GT event organised by our local group finished with marking and then giving out of prizes for the highest marks!

I think hindsight is 20/20, obviously. You have the benefit of knowing the successful outcome, perhaps even a result because of the hardships. Parenting is difficult in that most place the importance of their child over everything. When the child is having troubles, you don't have the benefit of knowing the end result.



This one is difficult for me as well. More so upon remembering my *cherished* school day memories!

But I've come to realize I have absolutely no control over what impacts them when they are away from me. The only thing I can do is teach them how to deal with those things, good and bad.

I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with.

I am not arguing that other paths are not hugely simpler! But a path that is both far simpler, but inaccessible, does little good.

There is a large difference between "schooling" and "success in schooling," for one thing. Telling a 14 or 17 or 20 year old that s/he is doomed because s/he lacked the ability to perform academically is both unwise and in error.

It is unwise, because it leads to further undermining of the very confidence that you are talking about. It's in error because, while the paths are often bumpier, there are ways to succeed in this world without academic success.

Extroversion is a less necessary component for later success than confidence is - but confidence does not have to be based on schooling and, in fact, mostly should not be. Confidence in one's ability to learn can be developed regardless of schools, and for those students for whom schooling is problematic, regardless of which reason or reasons that might be, it is essential.

It is not enough to say school is important - there are many gifted kids who are never going to be gifted students, and for whom school represents an obstacle more than an opportunity. There are many gifted kids, gifted parents, gifted adults for whom despair is not too strong a term.

It is to them and their parents that I was speaking. School cannot be the only path to personal success. And it is not.

I'm reading the book The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin. I highly recommend it to parents/guardians of gifted children -- especially if they didn't grow up gifted themselves.

Josh Waitzkin was a chess child prodigy. You may remember the book & movie Searching for Bobby Fisher. That was about him.

In the first part of the book, Josh describes in vivid detail the passion he had for chess as a child including points when he stalled out and didn't want to pursue his study of chess. I found it very enlightening in terms of what it's like to be profoundly gifted. I think understanding and accepting the ebb and flow of life will aleviate some parents' anxiety about their gifted child stalling out, taking a break, refusing to do/learn as much or as fast as the parent thinks the child can/should.

Josh also contrasts two approaches to learning. One that is goal/achievement/end-state oriented. And another that is process oriented. It's the process approach that leads to mastery and away from perfectionism. A much healthier approach.

OK, what is up with your avatar ^^???
Halloween or love of anatomy?

Do not have time to read the entire thread now, but wanted to add something that seems significant to me.

The kid has more interest in approaching the challenge if it is shared with intellectual peers.

Seems that my kid is much more interested then. Take today - He has been invited to the meeting of an ARML club. He kind of felt obligated to attend, since the e-mail came personally to him. We said - go to this one meeting, see how you like it and then make your decision. He muttered something about "chores" on Saturday but went. Came back all happy , saying he is going to attend regularly. Why? He already knows 7 out of 14 people from a different math club, they are all smarter than him and he wants to rise to the challenge, he wants to be able to contribute (I think that they solve problems as a team there).

Good point, Ania. This is getting away from what Josh is trying to say, but I've seen DD8 getting burned out on dissappointing experiences. I'm not sure exactly why, but I have a few theories. I literally had to demand that she try one or two things that I knew WOULD be an intellectually appropriate situation for her in order to OVERCOME her blase attitude. In each case, she came home excited as well.

((shrug))