Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Newbie - need help with high reading ability, slow

Hello! I am new here and after searching the web for several hours for solutions that don't match the problem, decided this is a good place to get help.

My child is starting 2nd grade. Our district does not officially ID gifted, but he was reading at a 2nd grade level at the end of Kindergarten and a 4-5 grade level at the end of 1st grade. He reads almanacs and science books for fun but seldom has the patience to complete chapter books.

Here is the problem. He is extremely slow to complete assignments. When he does them it is often with high accuracy (although he will make a careless mistake every once in a while) but it takes him 2X as long to complete written assignments as his "average" classmates regardless of whether it is on or below his level of work. If you ask him questions from an assignment (math worksheet for example), he answers them fairly quickly but he can not finish the written assignment quickly even when motivated to do so. He has a very advanced vocabulary and can write neatly when he takes his time.

It is frustrating, because each year it takes his teachers several weeks to believe that he is actually gifted rather than slow. I suspect he would bomb a timed test.

For what it is worth, he is not fidgety or disruptive but can be very emotionally sensitive.

Any ideas as to how to figure this out?

It sounds like writing may be the bottleneck. Does he seem frustrated with writing?

Thanks for the reply. He doesn't seem frustrated with writing, but there is a marked difference in the speed of his written work verses verbal responses. When I sit with him and try to speed things up, he gets very frustrated. He says, "my brain doesn't work that fast". He almost seems distracted but he is really thinking through the work (sometimes along with other things). I have been reading about ADD and he doesn't fit the descriptions I have found other than the slow work. If I take the piece of paper away and ask him the questions, he would answer them relatively quickly. If I put the paper in front of him and ask the questions he slows down again.

I have wondered if it is the process of transfering the information from paper to brain and back to paper????

The other place he slows down is when he reads. He will stop mid-sentence and ponder all the details of a picture in the book. It doesn't matter if what he is reading is pre-school level or a physics book. At other times, he reads right along at a fluent pace. Even other times, he skips words.

I feel like I am still new to this, but I can throw in my two cents...

My son did the same thing with his homework last night. It was simple, write his spelling words 3x & do his math paper. It usually takes hin 10-15 minutes max, but he sat in the chair for about 90 minutes working on it. He was distracted with doodling, playing with his eraser, talking to me, etc. I told him to finish up so he could go play, but he kept saying it was boring, he already knew how to spell these words, why did he have to do this, etc...

I decide I didn't care how long it took. I stayed calm & told him he could sit there till bedtime, but he was going to finish. He is a master at manipulation & continued to try & convince me why he didn't have to do it.

Long story short...from what I have read & learned on this website is that if it is not challenging, or exciting & new, than they have a hard time enjoying it & will avoid doing it.

I suspect your son may be bored with those things that take him a long time to do. That is the simple explanation that pops out at me. I am not sure the best way to deal with it, and I may be wrong, but thought I would share my limited knowledge of this topic!

My ds does a lot of the same; sometimes it is boredom; I asked his 2nd grade teacher for harder words and she was really great about keeping him challenged going forward.

Sometimes it is his writing speed, so we have introduced typing to help but just getting older has helped as well.
Sometimes he is just thinking about a LOT of stuff; this is ok...but sometimes he does poorly on tightly timed tests.

check this out, in particular the part about too many associations - approx. pg. 30 (although the whole thing is interesting, and I probably ought to order the book!) -
http://mislabeledchild.com/stuy.pdf

FLoridamom - my son was the exact same way in 2nd grade. It lasted all year and never really got much better. We did rewards, bribes, punishments, but I always made him do it. THe odd thing is, he WANTED to do it, and would cry and be completely distressed on the times I made him go to bed and leave homework unfinished. He was so worried about the teacher and not having homework finished but he still couldn't bring himself to do it. He even told me once "when it's too easy, I just can't focus on it."

Thanks for the link chris. The associations piece does seem to fit. He definitely has some of the hypersensitivity issues on the emotional scale. I think we are going to take him to a private psychologist for an evaluation just to be sure we are seeing traits of giftedness and not that in combination with something else like ADD or dysgraphia. Nothing I have read seems to "fit" perfectly so I have become anxious about what to suggest to help him.

So far, we have had great teachers that have been willing and able to adapt instruction for our son with input for us. I am an educator myself and have come to his public schooling with the expectation (and reputation) that parents and schools have to work together to figure out what works for each child so we are lucky in that regard. The more I understand what is going on the more I can provide or suggest resources if needed.

If anyone has background in gifted kids with other issues, I would love to hear your thoughts, too!

I can't speak for your child, obviously, but I wanted to be sure that you're aware that fast and GT don't necessarily go together.

Case in point: My DS7 is a DYS kid, but he is as slow as molasses in January! I, too, worried that there might be some problem. But a big part of why he is as he is clicked into place for me when I saw his WISC scores: while he had a PRI score that qualified him for DYS, his processing speed was only 109. Aha! That means he's got an amazing depth of understanding, but he processes the info to get that understanding at the same speed as any ND kid his age. Well, no wonder stuff takes him longer!

When he was still in public school, I'm not sure he ever actually finished an assignment that the teacher gave him. Some of that was because he was underchallenged. But some of it was because he's just slow! His first grade teacher used this to try to undermine his GT ID, too, so it can be a real problem.

My usual description of DS7 is that he's deep, but not fast. Timed tests are awful for him. Everything takes longer than it seems like it should.

Since we're now homeschooling, I've learned to work around it as if it were a learning disability, though technically, it's not. But to moral of the story is that he needs time to process things. If he gets that time, he comes up with some amazing connections and solutions to problems.

Obviously we work on speed, too, but it's not our primary focus. It's a weakness we need to bolster, so we do small bits regularly to improve it.

Your child may have a 2E situation, but from your description, I don't necessarily see anything that screams 2E to me. Especially the way he sometimes stops when he's reading, it sounds to me like he's just thinking...

I'd suggest that perhaps your son is like my son: deep, but not fast. Not all GT kids are.

I'd say that your best bet is testing to see where the numbers fall. The WISC made my son make SOOOOOO much more sense! And achievement testing paired with IQ testing would help to tell you if there's a 2E issue happening there. I'd recommend it.

If you want more details about our experience, let me know. I'm happy to help if I can.

Thanks so much for the insight Kriston. Much of what I have read about gifted says the same so I hope that it exactly what you describe. Something just doesn't seem right.

Can someone give me a link to the codes being used here? (DS7, DYS, etc.)?

Oh, sorry! There's a sticky you can check for translations:

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....List_of_Common_Gifted_Acronyms#Post13990

Be sure to check the link to Hoagies listed there, since they define a lot of the ones we use a lot. We didn't restate most of the ones that they have there.

(And BTW, I had to ask, too, when I was new. It's quite the alphabet soup we use! Sorry about that! )

As for something not seeming right to you, well, I'm a big fan of parents trusting their guts. Moms know! If you think something isn't right, then you should definitely pursue it.

Some gifted folk really are deep and slow. I forgot this and ruined dinner last night by praising how cool my son's 8th grade math assignment was (using the numeral 4,exactly 4 times, with unlimited math symbols, to make various answers) and that no one had come up with a way to get to 11. My DH's eyes glazed over, he stopped speaking, and he started to make notes on some scrap paper. We didn't get a word out of him for the rest of dinner, until he handed his solution around, proudly. It was a neat trick, but not, IMHO, something to excuse one from dinner.

Did I mention that I'm an extreame 'extrovert' and DH is an 'introvert?'

I think that an assesment is the way to go, but be careful to go to someone who understands 2E stuff, which is a challenge. A Misdiagnosis is worse than no diagnosis (BTDT) - perhaps post in 'Regions' for local ideas. I also would get his vision checked, by both an opthamologist and by a behavioral optomitrist. If you son isn't typing yet, I would strongly suggest that you make some firm but gentle moves in that direction.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

So many of you were helpful when I posted the original message, I am back for an update. We did have our son privately tested. The psychologist used the Woodcock Johnson III tests for ability and achievement and Developmental Test of Visual Motor Integration (VMI). The nutshell results were
"General Intellectual Ability" = 132 (98th percentile)
Broad Range Reading = 94 percentile
Broad Range Math = 98 percentile
Broad Range Written Language = 98 percentile

Here is the curious part - almost all of the subtests were well above the 90th percentile except those labeled "fluency" which were lower. Those were timed. He scored in the 76 percentile on writing samples and 28th percentile on the Processing Speed test.

We have had him identified with the school district and the teacher is working on higher level instruction in reading and math to some extent.

Any ideas as to where we go next to figure out what is going on with the processing speed or should I just let it go? My fear is that we will run into more teachers that confuse speed with ability.
Thanks!

You might want to read up on Visual Spatial learners as well. My son (6) is a deep thinker as well. His processing speed was in the normal range on his IQ. He placed very low on his "norming tests" (timed pencil and paper)in school but very high on the computer tests (comprehensive). The public school wants to put more emphasis on his speed (they call it fluency) even though he is extremely accurate when he takes his time to process. I have looked in LD but cannot find one that fits exactly. I have found the Visual spatial information fits to a "T". Here is the link to some VS articles.

http://www.homeschooldiner.com/specials/visual_spatial/main.html It is on the homeschooldiner website but it has a ton of great resources. Also scroll through to find out what happens if your son were to get a teacher who doesn't understand this and give credit for both knowledge and speed.

Feel free to PM me if you want more. Good luck.

Lilar - I am curious what the psych says about numbers...did they offer any conclusions or advice for educational options?

thanks for the link hkc75 - that fits as well as anything...

chris1234...the psyc is baffled as well. He pointed out that the only test DS had noticeable difficulty with was one in which background noise increases so we are going to an audiologist next to see if there is an audiological processing disorder. The psyc did feel strongly that it is not ADHD, dysgraphia, or Asbergers which were all slight possibilities when we started the testing.

Another strange thing. DS has very inconsistent test results between morning and afternoon testing. We have noticed this with some school assessments.

Dottie- yes! He can test up to 3 grade levels higher in the morning than when he is tested in the afternoon. His afternoon results are all over the place. I attributed it to non-scientific tests and him being tired. Have you found any solutions for your DD?

Quick update- we just got back from the audiologist...it is not an auditory processing disorder.

I'm going with the slow because he's super gifted theory. At least that will make me feel better. I am beginning to worry that he is going to get a complex that "Mommy thinks something is wrong."

Thanks all for the links and advice.

My daughter (now 6th)has always had this issue. We had great teachers who figured it out. She is a perfectionist and never skims and has to be able to pronounce each word. Often, these words are surnames.

I finally had her tutored (after fourth grade) by her third grade teacher that she loved. They read plays - which forced her to read through. She also had to read into a tape player. Her teacher also (let) her skim. (I told her she could, but she thought it was cheating.)

She is still an exceptionally high (and slow) reader. However, her comprehension is much higher than most. I believe if we read the same paragraph, I could tell you that it happened in a room and she could draw a perfect picture of the room.

We also work on languages and how to pronounce them. Luckily, this is one of my interests. This helps her with surnames. She never forgets one once she learns it so this is getting better. Of course, many books have invented surnames now, but they have websites where they are pronounced.

One important thing to remember is that for timed tests, have them given extra time. This is true for most gifties - as they hate being timed and just need to know that they have longer. But, for this issue, it is very important because for reading, they will take longer and probably receive a perfect score for comprehension. Plus, they will most likely be in a room with less students.

And writing - my daughter usually writes something worthy of publishing (as her teachers say). Sometimes, it has to be shortened. In Texas, they were allowed as much time as they needed for the writing test. She worked from 8 to 5 on hers and received one of the few perfect scores. The cue was about someone helping someone and she got into DNA and science fiction and anyway, it was practically a novel. Since moving to Colorado, it is timed and she is never satisfied. Who can write a novel in one hour?

We have to constantly work with her to finish these assignments, but luckily, her teachers have loved her writing and work with her. She stays after school quite a bit to finish. This is just a fact of life for her. She won't do anything less. She knows when she is finished with her paper and at this age, I can't convince her otherwise. Her teacher wants her to try to publish a book this summer.

Hope this lengthy explanation helps. And my daughter is the only other student I have known like this. Her third grade teacher had known a previous student and that is why she could help her. Her fluency has improved greatly when she needs it to, but I doubt she uses it when she doesn't need it due to her need for total comprehension.

Thanks for sharing and the input.

Strangely, reading is the only thing my son does quickly, especially on material that is at or below his reading level. His reading comprehension level is 3-4 years above grade level.

His slow response generally shows up when he has to verbalize or write down an answer. I really think he is thinking through all the possibilities before commiting to an answer.

He also reacts slowly to verbal directions by his parents (brush your teeth, get your pajamas on, etc.) but I am chalking that up to our poor parenting skills (we tell him more than once so he gets by with it). LOL

Glad to hear that APD is ruled out. I know what you mean, but it seems to me that if you do find a 'something' that will help you and he understand him better that it will be worth it.

Still it's hard.

Glad to hear that his reading is fluent. I wonder if it's worth it to try to do a 'unit' on Logic and Debate. If he's going to take a long time to think everything through, step by step, perhaps training him how to do that more efficiently will help.

There is a love of precision (like my DH) and there is the 'going round in circles because I don't trust myself to do it right' that we usually call perfectionism. Given those definitions, what do you think that you are seeing? Does he tear up his work in disgust? Is he pleased with himeslf at the end?

I always remind myself around this time that 'it's a process!'

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I'm new here to, so here are my two cents.

Have you ever heard of over-focused ADD. Check it out. It took me nearly 5 years to figure out my now 13year old has this.

He did many if not all the things you talked about.