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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,640 Likes: 1
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,640 Likes: 1 |
If college education is largely about signaling, as Bryan Caplan (the interviewee below and author of the recent book, "The Case Against Education") suggests, Well, it seems pretty obvious that a college education is largely about education. My older son is planning to major in computer science. A 4-year degree costs as much as $290K. If college were largely about education, we would have him take MOOCs (he has already taken intro CS and machine learning MOOCs) and use the money to help him (for example) by a house some day. Because the credential matters as much as the knowledge, we are not going to do that.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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A 4-year degree costs as much as $290K. So we're in agreement - the price is too high.
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Joined: Feb 2010
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The price of a 4-year degree is too high, so let's look at alternatives, such as MissionU covered in this article: One Year of ‘College’ With No Degree, But No Debt And a Job at the End By Douglas Belkin Wall Street Journal April 9, 2018 As a high-school senior in Hampton, Va., Aidan Cary applied last year to prestigious universities like Dartmouth, Vanderbilt and the University of Virginia.
Then he clicked on the website for a one-year-old school called MissionU and quickly decided that’s where he wanted to go.
Mr. Cary, 19 years old, is enrolled in a one-year, data-science program. He studies between 40 and 50 hours a week, visits high-tech, Bay Area companies as part of his education, and will pay the San Francisco-based school a percentage of his income for three years after he graduates.
This new type of postsecondary education is proving a hit: The school says it has received more than 10,000 applications for 50 spots.
“I think people feel backed into a corner by the cost of college,” Mr. Cary said. “They’ve been waiting for something like this so when it finally came around they could instantly see the value proposition.”
MissionU, which enrolled its first class in September, is part of new breed of institutions that bill themselves as college alternatives for the digital age. The schools—whose admission rates hover in the single digits—comparable to the Ivy League, according to the schools—offer a debt-free way to attain skills in hot areas and guaranteed apprenticeships with high-tech companies. Together those create a pipeline to well-paying high-tech jobs.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Sure, alternatives are one option, and particularly in IT, where a degree program is of questionable value at best (the industry tends to move far too fast for colleges to keep up - I don't have one specifically because I began such a program after having already accrued job experience, and found it to be a complete waste of time and money).
But for other specialties, simply throwing up your hands and saying "let's look at alternatives" is a policy of failure, because degree programs and their graduates still have an important role to play in society as a whole.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 423
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There is an important premise that isn't being clearly indicated in any post I've read though this entire thread. I think everyone agrees that the price of a 4 year (or more) degree is pushing higher quickly, that doesn't seem to be in great debate.
The premise I'm referring to is the difference between:
1. The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising.
2. The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising and it's society's and or government's job (read tax payer) to remedy that.
Without that distinction I find it difficult to make any comment of value.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Well, your premises can be restated:
1) The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising, I recognize this as a societal problem, but I'm willing to passively accept the obvious and growing condition, and the long-term consequences thereof.
2) The cost of a 4 year degree is too high and rising, I accept my responsibilities as a member of society and believe problems should be solved, and I am willing to engage in activities relevant to making that happen.
For an analogy, do you identify a malignant tumor and try to treat it, even though you know it will hurt, or do you quietly ignore it and wait for it to kill you?
I feel like Bostonian has clearly endorsed the first position, and I have endorsed the second.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 423
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Thank you Dude for your reply and clarity. Perhaps #2 should be separated out into another premise. The problem with #2 is rarely whether you or I as individuals are willing to identify and accept as reality a societal problem, it's not even whether we're as free will individuals to contribute to a possible solution. The problem arises when I feel that my ideal of a societal problem is important enough to force you against your will to contribute to the solution as well.
So in answer to you last question, my answer is of course when I identify a malignant tumor on myself I try and treat it. What I don't presume though is that if I have a malignant tumor that I should be able to make you contribute to the funding to treat it, that's not my place or jurisdiction to tell you what to do with what you own. What I can do is ask if you're willing to contribute of your own free will as a compassionate and caring human being provided I have no other means to afford the treatment myself and other less expensive options are off the table. Then I let you decide if that is what you have see as a priority with your resources.
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Joined: Oct 2011
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If you're participating in the medical insurance market at all, then as a fellow rate-payer, you are requiring me to help finance your treatment, without asking. That's how insurance works.
And as illustrated in this analogy, that's a lot smarter than adopting an every-man-for-himself philosophy. Civilization is built on such cooperation and mutual support.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,248 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2013
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Excellent points, Bostonian. Interesting program... possibly it may help larger numbers of people see that the Ivies are not the only worthwhile credential ("Where you go is not who you'll be") but develop a deeper, broader sense of "fit" both for academics and careers. 
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,248 Likes: 1
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Joined: Apr 2013
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Excellent points, and clarification, Old Dad.
I believe we have crystallized the issue.
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