Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Too gifted in sports?

Did you see this article? I'm interested in hearing what people think about this.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...oogood.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Anybody ever watch The Incredibles movie?

Ugh! Well, there goes our sports/GT analogy, huh?

But seriously, this is a shameful situation. If the kid meets the age requirements and whatever other requirements the league has for players, then he should play. Period.

Sad.

I think everyone knows where I stand! First of all why can't he play "up"?

That's what I was thinking. Accelerate him! Find him a team where he's with his peers.

I often think of the Incredibles in relation to GT issues!

I agree with letting him pitch to older kids. Let's hope he doesn't get worn out from too much pitching, though.

That said, Jericho will get the last laugh when he joins a major league team when he's 20. Thanks to that article, I have no doubt that the recruiters already have their eyes on him.

Val

Well, I wouldn't want my 9-yo with older kids in sports necessarily. I mean, if he's bigger and faster and everything, then maybe. But just because the kid is a fast pitcher doesn't mean he's good enough or big enough to play competitively overall. Plus he does lose a year of eligibility if he moves up, and there's no telling if he's going to STAY bigger and faster.

Too, it makes a difference what the age range of the next league up is. If his current league is 8-9 and the next league is 10-11, then maybe it's okay. But if he's in a 9-11 league and they want him to play with the 12-14yos, then that just wouldn't work for me.

But either way, I feel quite strongly that it ought to be his parents' decision about whether he plays up or stays in his age group, not the decision of the league. If there's no rule that says "kids pitching faster than 35 mph will be moved up to the next age group," then the child has the right to stay with the team.

I suspect the parents have grounds for a lawsuit, honestly.

I read this article independently and came here immediately to see if there was discussion about it. Boy, you guys are quick!

I am very interested in the topic because, as you might recall, DS4 has an obsession with baseball. And he is very good. The natural thing to do, of course, is to let him play with older kids. This happens on the playground and in pickup games all the time. But around here, at least, there is a problem accelerating him in the official leagues. I don't know how it works in New Haven, where the SI story takes place, but ever since the Danny Almonte scandal seven years ago Little League around here has been assiduous about age limits. Unfortunately, this applies at both the upper and the lower ends. So accelerating in Little League turns out to be every bit as difficult as it is in 2nd grade. Seems silly in both cases - why not let them play and learn at their natural level? But when the bureaucrats get involved there is little room for compromise.

Oh dear.

BaseballDad

I guess the thing that bugs me is that if he is a better pitcher and his team can win, then they should win. Why should they be denied going to the playoffs if they have better players? I think this is just more of the "everyone has to feel good so we all have to be mediocre" mindset.

Are they going to start DQing hitters that hit too many home runs? Or what about hitters who hit fast line drives? It's just weird that this kid was singled out, I think.

Now that I think about it, making the other kids who are his age play against him could be a good learning exercise for them. And of course, I'm not too impressed with a coach who lets his kids quit just because the pitcher is good. Will they quit someday when the test or the job is harder than they thought it would be?

If the age limits are very strictly enforced, the coaches would do well to help their kids learn to face a stronger player. Aren't sports supposed to be about building character???

Val

Agreed. The article hinted that it might be a form of payback because the kid didn't play for the team run by the league president (or some such petty dictator--I may have the details wrong), and that does seem possible under the circumstances.

The great players make the all-star team; they do NOT get booted out of the league!

Probably not. Pitching 40 mph at 9, he'll probably have a career ending shoulder injury by 16.

My read of the article was that he had the opportunity to play in a tougher league and declined. This one was a developmental league. Where we are, the developmental leagues are all-inclusive. The better players play all-star and travel leagues.

I don't believe he should be pitching 40 mph at that level. Besides, what type of practice does he get pitching fast balls against kids at the lower levels?

Also, the mother's behavior was out of control. Like most things, I think there's more to the story, and the kids are the unwitting victims.

The article also hinted at some type of misbehavior by his mother...

I think we were all reading the same article at the same time!


I think there is something to this, unfortunately. It would have been interesting if the author had dug into that more.

JB

Yeah, there is definitely more going on than was reported. Calling the police over a baseball game?

JB

Pretty great analysis, Questions, I think you are right.


That's a real shame.

That does sound odd. But maybe someone was threatening her. We just don't have enough information.

Thanks, but I've seen it all too often. Look at those Chinese gymnasts. If they are underage, it's not their fault. They're not the ones changing their passports. And if they get banned (and I expect they will if they are underage) they lose - forever.

Kids sports are out of control. And the adults don't care about the lessons they're teaching with their behavior.

I could go on ... and on... and on....

Interesting to think about this in the context of the Chinese gymnasts. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Chinese girls were under 16. On the face of it, at least, there seems to be some tension between being for acceleration in the case of baseball but against it in the case of gymnastics. Not that the two cases are exactly analogous, nor that anyone here has expressed this combination of views. But still, perhaps it's worth thinking about the two cases in relation to each other.

BB

I think the age rule for gymnastics has to do with the relationship between injuries and that kind of super heavy training at younger ages.


Me too!

Let's not.

Oops. Cross-posted with questions. But our points are similar. I certainly agree that kids' sports are out of control, and that the kids are the unwitting victims. And yet, there should be room for kids who want to accelerate in sports as in school. Shouldn't there?

BB

BaseballDad, age eligiblility rules are tough wherever they are instituted. The 16 year old rule in women's gymnastics is an attempt to protect young athletes from abusive practices trying to keep girls prepubescent. 80 pound kids without hips or breasts can move through the air more easily than a fully-developed woman. Unfortunately, the attempts to produce champions have resulted in all sorts of abuses. Whatever the rule, there are people trying to figure out how to get around it.

Not to bore Neato, but ... yes. And there are outlets for better athletes - travel teams, regional, state, national and international competitions. In fact, it's hard for an athlete to hone his or her skill without competition. Still, there are plenty of examples of athletes playing down to win. In fact, today I heard that the kids who compete in DS's taekwondo school play down a belt in competitions, except for nationals, where the rules are enforced. I couldn't help saying to his best friend's mom, "but that's unethical!" Her response: "everyone does it." That attitude is the problem with so much...

Questions: I don't say the issue is simple. I certainly know the arguments for the age limit in women's gymnastics. But the whole thing seems so arbitrary. There is no age limit for swimming, diving, track and field, and many other sports. Are the issues really so different? When Michael Phelphs swam in the Olympics in 2000 he had just turned 15 years old. His training regimen is, and has been for years, absolutely extraordinary. By some accounts he burns over 8000 calories per day in his work outs. Is that abusive? Perhaps. If so, then maybe the point is that it was wrong for Phelps too. But if not, why not? I just think the issues are difficult, and it's hard to be consistent here. I don't say I am. I just wonder how best to think about it.

BB

Interesting book: Little Girls in Pretty Boxes:

http://www.amazon.com/Little-Girls-...mp;s=books&qid=1219715621&sr=8-1

That is an interesting book; I've read it, too.

I think it is an important point that other athletes are training hard at a young age. Are they being pressured to do that or do they just have internal drive?

I think the 16 yr. minimum age limit for gymnastics is totally ineffective. First of all, wouldn't that increase abuses resulting from trying to stay prepubescent? If a girl is prepubescent, she doesn't have to abuse her body, right? But the older she is the more she has to struggle to stay girlish.

Secondly, it is inconsistent--don't young female divers have an advantage? It sure appeared that way, but I don't know of an age limit in that sport.

Thirdly, it is apparently unenforceable.

If we seriously think that these things are not appropriate for children to train for and perform at the Olympics, maybe they shouldn't be Olympic sports.

About playing down--I think entering a tae kwon do competition at a lower belt level is dishonest and contrary to the tenets of the sport. I have a black belt in TKD myself and I know that this is not practiced at our dojang. So "everyone" is not doing it.

However, I don't think that the boy in the article was playing down. He was in the right age group. We don't know the reasons that his parents didn't choose to have him participate in another league. Maybe it wasn't feasible for some reason.

Or maybe they just bought into the notion that social interaction should take place with kids of the same age. Isn't that what the schools keep telling us?

<tongue lodged firmly in cheek>

Hee, hee!

Never bored, Questions, just disgusted! This is almost the same discussion we've had concerning creator parents. Parents who blindly push their own obsessions onto their children so singlemindedly and maniacally, the children are severely harmed, abused, whatever term you want to use. Whether it's emotional or physical harm it's all the same. And the parent who says: well, that's what all the other parents are doing.........my goodness, a village of idiots.

Here is a case where a kid is too good at sport and is banned.

A youth baseball league has banned a 9-year-old, and disbanded his team, because he throws too hard

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/08/jericho_scott_pitches_too_good_/


"Nine-year-old Jericho Scott is a good baseball player � too good, it turns out. The right-hander has a fastball that tops out at about 40 mph. He throws so hard that the Youth Baseball League of New Haven [Connecticut] told his coach that the boy could not pitch any more. When Jericho took the mound anyway last week, the opposing team forfeited the game, packed its gear and left, his coach said.

[...]

Jericho�s coach and parents say the boy is being unfairly targeted because he turned down an invitation to join the defending league champion, which is sponsored by an employer of one of the league�s administrators. Jericho instead joined a team sponsored by Will Power Fitness. The team was 8-0 and on its way to the playoffs when Jericho was banned from pitching.

�I think it�s discouraging when you�re telling a 9-year-old you�re too good at something,� said his mother, Nicole Scott. �The whole objective in life is to find something you�re good at and stick with it. I�d rather he spend all his time on the baseball field than idolizing someone standing on the street corner.�

League attorney Peter Noble says the only factor in banning Jericho from the mound is his pitches are just too fast. �He is a very skilled player, a very hard thrower,� Noble said. �There are a lot of beginners. This is not a high-powered league. This is a developmental league whose main purpose is to promote the sport.� Noble acknowledged that Jericho had not beaned any batters in the co-ed league of 8- to 10-year-olds, but say parents expressed safety concerns. �Facing that kind of speed� is frighteneing for beginning players, Noble said
"

Isn't that the same case we're talking about?

Yeah, but I didn't read it I guess because Austin give a little more info for the other side. Just like anything else there is another side.


I see that, but if it were my child at bat I would probably encourage them to face that fear or perhaps my child would decide baseball isn't for them and that's fine.

On the other, other hand I've been told be a very well meaning board member, "How would you feel if your child knew they weren't in the "top ability group" in class?

Is that a valid reason to ban ability grouping?

Honestly, if my first grader was aware that the class was ability grouped and where they fit into the pecking order well enough to know they weren't in the top group, I'd be asking the teacher why they didn't understand that my child should be in the top ability group.

If you're too scared to face the fastest pitcher in the league, then maybe YOU should leave the league! I don't think you require the pitcher to leave.

40 mph is not that hard to hit - it takes practice for kids, but batting cages and pitching machines are available where you can raise your game. My 10 yr old nephew was hitting them pretty easily after a few trips to the cages.

I was moved to JV football as a Freshman. I was fast and quick enough, but it was not fun getting hit by someone > 200 lbs. That convinced me to quit.

OTOH, I hung on in my abstract math classes, learned how to study, and eventually outperformed the Eastern European wunderkids.

Edit - I think there is another issue here - the normalization of mediocrity - of under performance - sports on one hand enforce compliance, but they also force one to raise one's game.

I do think that there is much more going on in this situation than is being reported.

However, in our local soccer leagues, children play up a year or so when they have the skills and there aren't enough older kids to complete the roster. If the next year, there are enough older kids to play, the younger gets to play back down in the other age group. Some special exceptions have been made for truly exceptional players to always play up.

Another solution to me would have been to build the child's skills by letting him pitch a few innings and then move him to another position. Yes, he appears to have talent for pitching but who knows, with practice he might be an even better short stop. I know in soccer, none of the children have set positions. They keep moving every few minutes to a new position.

As far as redshirting and not competing at your acheived ranks. I firmly disagree. DH, DS and I also hold black belts in Tae Kwon Do and I would never have allowed DS to compete at a lower rank just to maybe do better. However, there were a few competitions that limited him to competing at a lower rank due to his age. In those events, he had a handicap put on him to even the competition. I preferred that to him trying to spar against competitors 4 years older than he was.

But in my opinion, that handicap was valid since he had a higher skill level and had earned a higher rank. This baseball situation does not seem that black and white. As reported, there do not seem to be any rules for pitching speed that would prevent him from playing in that bracket.

Agreed, elh - or work on some other pitches. He'll need more than a fast ball. I might add that looking at the photo that I didn't see on my blackberry when I first read the article, that this is an urban New Haven league, not a suburban league. The pitcher is standing in a sandpit for a pitcher's mound. No wonder the mother is upset. As she said in the article, baseball is an outlet for her son to keep him away from the kids on the street corners. I hope someone steps up and gives the boy an opportunity to play elsewhere - I expect that is what will/should happen with all the publicity. The article was picked up and carried nationally.