Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment High PSI relatively lower VCI and WMI

DS7 (in 1st grade) underwent a private IQ testing at the recommendation of his teacher. The psychologist just called with some preliminary results.

He has PSI in the 99 percentile while both VCI and WMI are in the 50-ish percentile. His FSIQ is in the low 120s.

For WIAT-III, his language subtests are grade-equivalent, but his math-related subtests are between 5th and 10th grade.

Should the spread between the PSI and VCI/WMI and the relatively weakness in language be a concern?

Trying to digest the information before the official psychologist meeting next week.

TIA

I don't think it's unusual for VCI to be closer to average and VSI/FRI to be much higher, especially in a "mathy" kid (which seems to, in general, describe your son). Preumably his VSI and/or FRI are higher?

I don't know about the relatively low WMI, though. I know that can also be common in gifted kids (having either or both PSI and WMI closer to average).

Actually, it is fairly unusual for VCI to be average when VSI/FRI are much higher, even in mathy kids. Though of course, there are some individuals for which we would describe this profile as one with significant relative strengths, rather than significant relative weaknesses. But those persons usually perform closer to their FSIQ in terms of their reading/writing achievement. (The same applies to the relatively low WMI.)

What were the VSI & FRI? I'm assuming in the 130s. If so, that is a ~2 SD difference between VCI/WMI and VSI/FRI/PSI, which is pretty substantial, and consistent with a similar magnitude of difference between his language and mathematics achievement. Assuming there are no interfering factors (e.g., that he is a fluent speaker of English), this would be suggestive of some concern.

Do you find WM or language challenges IRL? Does he have trouble remembering or following through with directions? Ask frequently for repetitions? Often say, "huh?" or similar? Struggle with expressing himself clearly?

I wouldn't focus on the FSIQ - focus instead on the relative differences across VCI/etc and also look at variability in individual subtest scores. I would also consider for the WIAT (achievement tests) that your ds has had enrichment (I think?) in math - which would help bolster those scores relative to children his age who might not have been exposed to the same material. That's not saying he isn't talented at math - it's clearly a strength for him, but just noting that achievement and ability tests are too different types of beasts. The key when looking for potential 2e is looking at relative differences in achievement and correlations with relative discrepancies in ability testing.

Although it was noted above that differences such as your ds has are "common" for math-strong kids, I'd disagree with that. From what I understand from the neuropsychologists who've tested my 2e children, a difference of greater than 1.5 SD is the point at which it's commonly considered worth looking into the possibility of a challenge - if everything is great and wonderful and the student is functioning well and happily with academics, then perhaps a discrepancy is simply that and nothing more - and the higher area is a strength and that's it. However, if there are other things going on, such as issues with specific types of academic tasks, then you'll want to look at the big picture of what's happening by comparing performance at school, challenges observed at home (if there have been any), etc with test results to make sense of what's going on.

You mentioned that your ds' teacher recommended the testing - what was the reason she recommended it? Was it simply for gifted ability level, or did she have some concerns?

In looking back at your previous posts, I noticed this:


While it's easy for parents of high ability children to think complaints such as this are simply kids not wanting to do work that's easy... I'd suggest thinking back through this type of complaint and any other work resistance you've noted (or his teacher has noted) before your meeting with the psychologist - it's possible that the work he's not happy with may be correlated to the relative differences in his ability profile.


My suggestion is to put together a list of your observations, concerns and questions, but don't worry about over-thinking and figuring it all out re how things tie to test scores before this meeting - go to the meeting with the objective of listening to what the psychologist has to say. When we've had testing, I've found that no matter how well prepared you are going into that meeting, you're going to come away with more questions than answers (which doesn't mean you won't have answers, just means that it's usually a ton of info to take in and as you think through it during the next few weeks, you'll have more questions). Our psychs were willing to let us set up a follow-up meeting to discuss our follow-up questions, and I found that very helpful. If you don't have a lot of follow-up questions you might be able to get answers via email/phone call.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Not really


He could be, but is it a boy "thing"?


The teacher’s recommendation was mostly due to rushed and sloppy work (more notably as the school year goes on) and possible enrichment opportunities. At home, impulsivity is also a concern.

To be honest, I am more concerned about the possible 2e than enrichment at school at this point. He avoids tasks related to reading/writing (and English is his first language), which is not his strength. I always assume kids avoid tasks that are difficult to them.

No. As the parent of a boy who has an issue with expressive language, it's just so easy to think things like "it's a boy thing" or "it's a high IQ thing" or "he's just interested in other things" etc. I said so many of those things to myself when my ds was young! *MAYBE* it's a "boy thing" or other thing.. but when you have signs from testing of a large discrepancy in abilities and you have other signs from outside of school or within school that things aren't going well or are a little different from what you'd expect, that's when it's time to do exactly what you're doing - have a professional attempt to look at the big picture and put the pieces together. So - one other thing for your appointment - be sure to mention things like this. And ask if the psychologist has done (or recommends) any follow-up tests to help discern *why* there is the large difference in test scores.


Even though you're more concerned about 2e, definitely take any recommendations for enrichment back to his teacher - one thing that happens with 2e kids is that they may have to spend a lot of time and difficult effort on remediating the area of their challenges, and it's really *really* helpful to also have them working on an area of strength at the same time, so they have a chance to feel successful.

Re the challenges, definitely learn all you can about what's potentially up, and ask for the psychologists recommendations for what to do to both better define/understand the challenges and for recommendations for remediation and accommodations.

And yes, I think you're right on when guessing that task avoidance is a sign of potential difficulty. FWIW my ds also used to try to rush through work that was difficult due to his challenge (when he was young... now that he's older he tackles it, but also wishes it would just disappear!).

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - not to make things even more complicated, but fwiw, my 2e dd has an extremely high PSI - it's possible that what looks like rushing through work is actually your ds working in his high-PSI mode. My dd likes to work really fast - which she can do in some respects, but it is also extremely frustrating to her to have to slow her brain down in order to not make mistakes. She's my dyslexic child, so for her that means she often misses words/meaning etc. She's also very strong at math, so she works quickly through problems.. and makes simple mistakes because she's thinking so quickly. Hope that makes sense!

I would say that your description of his daily function does suggest genuine challenges with regard to language and language-related academics. Expressing himself poorly is not really typical development for either boys or girls. Avoiding reading/writing suggests difficulties in those areas. Even rushing through work may be an attempt to minimize time on areas of deficit. Phonological memory (auditory working memory) is one of the three critical areas of phonological processing associated with reaching fluency as a reader. All in all, his testing and anecdotal profile are concerning with regard to some kind of reading and/or writing challenge, with possible receptive/expressive language delays.