Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Less gifted girls than boys in the USA?

Nodding my head as I read through this whole thread. We started down this path back in grade 1 because school was not going well for DS9. His behavior wasn't great and the school told us to test him for ADHD. We thought the root cause was boredom but agreed that there was something else going on so we tested to learn more and discovered the world of 2e. We then tried differentiation for 2 years before giving up and switching school boards to be in a full time gifted program which has been great for him. 2/3 of the class is boys.

DD7 is totally different. We knew she was smart and she was doing well in school. Teachers seem to love her, she is compliant (at least as much as any grade 2 kid is), does her work and for the most part likes it. This year we had a brief blip where she started to check out mentally but that seems to have been mostly resolved now that they started differentiating more for her.

We tested her this year because we figured she would likely also score high but to be totally honest we probably wouldn't have if we hadn't been dragged down this path by DS and read everything that we have over the past 3 years and experienced the school's inability to deal with him. DS's reaction to poor educational fit was something that was hard to ignore. Her's is much more subtle and if we weren't looking would easily be overlooked. Most teachers have no clue what either of them is actually capable of if they were appropriately challenged. I'm hoping that she can join her brother next year at the other school. She wants to move but didn't want to do it mid-year. Hopefully she'll be accepted....

A very seasoned administrator in a local gifted school tells me that the number of boy applicants for their sought after gifted program far outnumbers the number of girl applicants. They require an IQ score of 135+ to be eligible for the program. She says that they drop many gifted boys from the applicant list and select girls who do not reach that cutoff just because they need enough girl students to keep a 50/50 ratio of boys and girls in their school. When I asked her why this was the case, she said that around 1st-3rd grades, the very gifted boys who are severely under challenged (as is the case in many of the local schools in my area) start showing restlessness, inability to control their impulsiveness, inability to cope with boredom etc which show up as "behavior issues" in the classroom. So, the parents of these boys come to the conclusion that gifted programs are necessary far earlier than the parents of gifted girls. According to this administrator, most HG/PG girls learn to manage their behavior well in any classroom setting (early maturity?) and read a lot to compensate for the lack of challenging education and have much more self-control in the typical classroom. She said that many parents of gifted girls realize that their child needed more challenges much later because they do not exhibit unhappiness about the school situation often.
This is certainly hearsay and it sort of matches my own childhood experiences and so, I thought I would post it here. None of it is scientific, just the observations of a person who has held a particular job dealing with gifted elementary kids for 30 years or so.

OP: statistically, there are as many smart girls as boys - if you asked my DH, he would say that the girls we meet at places where gifted kids congregate are more gifted and thoughtful than my DS. My son is part of a competitive chess program and there are more girls than boys at the younger ages. There is a math circle that my son attends and there are more girls than boys in the elementary circle. I attended a presentation for the local round of the Intel Science Fair and the local Science and Tech Championships and there were a lot of girls presenting a lot of very advanced science and technology projects. Just thought that you might want to try these options locally to see if your DD can meet more girls like her.

FWIW, I don't believe there are more gifted boys than girls, or that tests necessarily favor boys over girls (instead I defer to ash's note that test norms typically are *not* given based on gender.

I do think that what I saw in our school district in elementary school indicated children who acted out in class or appeared to have behavior challenges were more often tested and therefore found eligible for our districts' gifted programs than children who did not act out in class based largely on teacher referral. I didn't see that necessarily result in a high ratio of boys to girls here but can see that might lead to what looks like gender bias at times.


Are boys excelling at a higher rate or participating at a higher rater? One thing that you might be seeing, depending on the types of "gifted" activities you're taking your dd too, is a subconscious parental bias toward certain activities for boys vs girls - not necessarily IQ-related, but activity-related. Our ds was very interested in robotics for awhile, for example, and we saw way more boys than girls participating in robotics. This doesn't mean boys are by nature "better" at robotics than girls, but does indicate that somewhere, either among parents who choose and drive back and forth, or among the children who participate themselves, there are more boys than girls interested in pursuing that interest at that age. I'm a scientist, my ds is a scientist, we've both enjoyed STEM-based hobbies and interests and given each of our children a chance to participate in STEM-type extracurriculars, and our girls have, overwhelmingly and consistently, chosen other types of activities instead... even though both are strong in math/science in academics and have career aspirations in math/science. The just aren't excited about hanging out with the kids who are into robotics and chess club etc. And yes, they've tried both!


I'm wondering where you've looked other than AMC8 which you've mentioned above?


I realize you're just looking for answers based on very natural questions based on your personal experience, and likely influenced based on where you live (just a guess).. but fwiw, I wouldn't make the above generalization - that's really all it is, and definitely is *not* true among Asians I know (either in favoring boys over girls or in being over-represented in gifted gatherings).


What's worked best for us in finding peers was to focus on what our children liked to do, rather than focus on finding gifted-specific programs.


You're touching on issues here that impact non-HG+ girls too.. not just high IQ girls, especially as they approach the teen years. I'm not mentioning that to discount the benefit of finding ability-peers, just noting that it's an issue many moms-of-girls face, and an issue that might not disappear just because you find ability-peers either. Hope that makes sense!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I have seen all the issues everyone has shared above in my DD's life - and my own (I spent most of my life with male friends, until I became a mother in my mid-30s).

No question that boys in the wrong environment are far more likely to wreak havoc in that environment; girls instead tend to tune out, shut down, or try to support the environment, such as by becoming the teacher's helper. Boys are much more likely to make their problem everyone's problem, and teachers are thus far more motivated to seek a solution. Girls put on the required public face and force their problems deep down inside - at least until they get home from school, where their families often see the damage and breakdown the schools never witness.

A good example of this in practice: our board uses CCAT (CoGat) or WISC to identify gifted students, which research shows should produce a 50/50 split. However, the major source of identification is teachers, so the gifted classes in our board are in fact 2/3 boys.

Girls really do learn terribly young that acting out is not tolerated for them, though it is expected in boys. Culturally, we push girls hard to compromise, fit in, help others and make them comfortable, and not make waves. There's some incredible disturbing research I'll try to track down in which teachers are given kids' profiles and asked for their opinion of the child's needs. With no change on the profile except a name, teachers were way more likely to identify a boy as likely gifted and needing more academic challenge, but a girl as a behaviour problem needing discipline. Ah - found it: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02783193.2011.580500

Honestly, it's not all on the teachers, either. I see in parents a tendency to expect the gifted girl to find a way to make it work, while they are more likely to seek a new environment for a gifted boy. Girls are expected to behave, and then they do behave, and then everybody, parents included, is less likely to see them as having severely unmet needs.

On the math side, I also watch, with great sadness, friends with a highly-gifted girl who loves Minecraft and coding as much as my DS, being pushed by parents into what they see as more appropriate pursuits. I do think many parents, in ways both subtle and overt, provide much stronger encouragement and support for boys in computer, engineering, science and math than boys. Mathiness in a girl is cute, and means she should do well in school. Mathiness in a boy tends to prompt a more proactive response, that results in parents taking them to math activities and contests at a young age. Most parents would be horrified, though, if you suggested they were doing this. Just like those playground studies that found parents swore they treated their kids the same, but in practice were way more likely to encourage boys but not girls to take risks and persevere at physically-hard challenges. I know I treat my DD very differently than her brother, and I am always worrying - am I responding to her total lack of interest in math - or have I inadvertently encouraged it? Even just thinking back to the noticeable differences in the toddler toy collections among friends houses when we all had our first babies... or the shockingly different ways people spoke to and handled my friends' mixed twins... the conditioning starts VERY young.

I agree that girls aren't encouraged as much as they might be, especially in conservative families and geographical areas. My sisters-in-law were certainly made to feel less bright than their brothers. As one example from my life, when I was making my 12th grade schedule, it had 3 AP classes including math, as well as advanced-level language. I forgot to add science. I took it to the guidance counselor, and he saw the hole in my schedule and asked if I should add another class. His suggestion was home economics. Being me, I responded, "Look at my schedule. Don't you think physics would be a better fit? But I should take home ec. because I'm a girl, and my destiny is to become a housewife, not a scientist, right?" He turned red. The senior student helping him said, "She's right!"

Yes, one can correctly say that these are just anecdotes. But we sure have a lot of anecdotes on this thread, and I sure have heard/seen a lot of anecdotes in my time. Like the old math or philosophy of science books I read that talk about MEN studying these subjects and never (or rarely) PEOPLE.


My understanding is that there has historically been more variance in male IQ scores compared to female scores. When I searched the web for this idea, I found a lot of old data that showed that males outnumbered females in the lower* (<1 or <2 SDs) and upper (>1 or 2 SDs) ranges. Some of this data went back to 1932. Then I found this interview, dated 2012. According to James Flynn, female IQs have been rising faster than male IQs in recent decades in developed nations. In the interview (and presumably in his book), he talks about the effect of circumstances on IQ --- on everyone, not just women. Groups that have historically not been given opportunities seem to gain more when their circumstances improve. This would include females, minorities, historically poor families, etc.

The problem, I think, is that people can use variance in scores to make prejudicial or distorted assumptions: I heard that more [insert group Z] are gifted than [insert group Q]. That [group Q kid] over there can't be as smart as her parental unit is claiming.





Hmm. Definitely an obnoxious remark. He might have been trying to be funny (and failing miserably). I understand how it would be, ahem, rather offputting. At the same time, I don't think I'd reject the school because of one lame remark. The unfortunate fact of this society is that sexism persists. All our daughters are going to have to deal with it, and IMO, turning away from a potentially good school because of one bad remark could send a message to a girl telling her to avoid science and engineering.

At the same time, I would have written a very pointed email to the principal of the school and maybe even to its board of directors asking why the director of admissions made such an obviously sexist/tone-deaf statement and if the school had a policy of discouraging girls from entering STEM fields. Standing up to this sort of thing is the only way to end it. that said, if the director was being sexist and if his attitude represents the school, I wouldn't be in a hurry to send my daughter there, either. There is "standing up to something" and then there is "sacrificing your kid's mental health pointlessly."

*My current understanding is that males still outnumber females in the lowest 3% of IQs, but that this is due to hereditary diseases that affect IQ. Overall, these conditions predominate in males. They include conditions like fragile X syndrome, Prader-Willi syndrome, and etc. I'm pretty sure than Down syndrome affects more males than females as well. I also know that one of the more common of the female-only diseases (Turner syndrome) doesn't affect IQ.

Val, you make a number of good points about the distribution of IQ, especially those having to do with genetic disorders and cultural expectations. It's still a fairly small difference, though, and mostly measurable only at the tails. And the cultural aspect appears to be lessening, at least in industrialized nations.

Even in the historical data you mention from 1932 Scotland, the gender difference is quite small at +2 SD, which is where we generally draw the GT line (though some use +1.7 SD). And it certainly isn't a ratio of 1:2. (More like 5:7.)

More recent meta-analyses have confirmed the use of combined norms for males and females on cognitive measures.

There have been some interesting speculative discussions about lower variance among females than among males, possibly having to do with two X chromosomes vs one X chromosome (though the discussions I've seen don't fully incorporate X inactivation).

Here's the paper I read earlier (and mentioned earlier on this thread) on the CogAT. Basically what this is saying is that there is a large difference between genders in terms of students with extreme scores, especially on the quantitative reasoning section. So the boys have an advantage if the goal of the school is to pick out students who are scoring above, say, the 96th or 98th percentile. I think there is also a gender difference on other sections of the CogAT but not as extreme. I didn't read this again, thoroughly, but I don't believe girls had an advantage in verbal ability.

CogAT is not an IQ test, it's a cognitive abilities test, but this is still significant because so many schools use this test, or similar tests, to identify students as gifted or not. So if the school programs are flooded with gifted boys, and not as many girls, and they are offering services only to students with very high scores, this could be one of the reasons why.

http://www.auburn.edu/~jml0035/index_files/Lohman_Lakin_BJEP09.pdf

I have a hard time believing that the boys are referred for gifted services by teachers more often due to them being disruptive in class, because most teachers seem to refer the perfect high-achievers, thinking they would be successful in a gifted program. A boy who is off-task and always needing re-direction or discipline, would probably just be seen as a troublemaker, and less likely to be successful with advanced work.

Good point Val, re rejecting the school based on a possibly off-the-cuff remark. We'd 99% decided on the other school though, which really promotes maths skills (in both girls and boys) and also focuses on problem solving and lateral thinking. It also celebrates the whole "maths geek" student which will suit her, I think, as she is quite popular but only has one or two close friends. The gifted school has a reputation for great academic results, but not much else, and actually doesn't really do any better than our preferred choice. I'm just worried about the next few years of junior school, as our preferred school seems to have a low key approach to differentiation and I don't want to have to be *that* mother (but I will!)

Back to the topic:; my personal feeling (based on only two DDs with different talents) is that kids who are very good at maths are harder to extend without additional, more formal, extension work. My DD who is good at literacy based tasks has been reasonably happy being asked to write in more detail and in greater depth, plus she's always reading at home, whereas it's much easier to hit the ceiling of the year's maths tasks. So, maybe the math kids are entering the G and T programs in greater numbers than the ones who have literacy skills?

I'm not convinced that girls are inherently less mathy than boys but maybe this is more likely to be socialised out of them?

blackcat, in our school district, the referrals to gifted programs essentially meant a student left the classroom they were in for either part of the day or to transfer full-time to a gifted public school program - hence a student referred for gifted testing was potentially a student leaving a teacher's classroom, hence the referrals for disruptive students. This really only happened in elementary school, heavily so the first few years. There were also students who'd been referred for team testing for SPED - due to behavior - not for gifted program testing, that tested as gifted, who might never have been identified if not for the ability testing through the SPED referral.

polarbear

While it's possible that the school balances for gender, it was always roughly equal at my children's GT magnet with a slight overrepresentation of boys. When I asked about that, one teacher suggested that more boys are twice exceptional and have trouble fitting in at regular school and end up at the magnet.