Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments GT program inside school vs. GT-only

Hello all, after DD8 scored quite highly (FSIQ 140) on the WISC-IV, and with a DS5 who will likely follow in her footsteps, we are seriously considering the possibility of relocating from our very small rural area where there are no GT services to speak of to a larger area. We are essentially looking at the Front Range area from Denver north all the way to Cheyenne and Laramie, including Ft. Collins, Longmont, Boulder, etc. My preference would be Wyoming, actually, but that's because of proximity to my hometown and family.

We are not considering any private schools, nor is homeschooling an option, nor do I wish to enroll my kids in online programs. I want them in brick-and-mortar schools.

To that end, it seems there are three general options with elementary schools:

1) GT programs that function inside of a "normal" school; the GT kids generally have their own classrooms and mix with everyone else at lunch and recess and so on. Some schools have only one classroom of GT kids, some have more, but on this model, GT is just one facet of a larger school. The whole range of non-academic activities (sports, music, theater, etc.) are available.

2) GT-only schools. For instance, the Aurora Quest K-8 school in Denver, which are only for GT kids. These schools tend to be much smaller in terms of student population, and offer much less in terms of extracurriculars.

3) Charter schools which are a mixed bag - like University of Wyoming Lab School, for instance. These tend to have small student populations and lots of individualized instruction, but not GT programs, per se. Tend to not offer much in the way of extracurriculars.

In addition to extracurriculars, I am also worry a bit with Options #2 and #3 that the "hothouse" environment. I believe there is real value in rubbing shoulders with kids from all walks of life on the playground and the cafeteria; I worry that, especially with #2, my kids might get the impression that all kids are gifted like they are, or, worse yet, develop elitist attitudes that they are somehow "better" than more average kids. The world is not filled with gifted kids, and I worry further that there is an "institutional" effect, where GT kids get so accustomed to the postive feedback loop of a GT school that they find themselves unable to function well without it - which is to say, in the real world, no one is giving you grades for how well you do on tests, right? (Unless you remain in an academic environment.) You need to be able to succeed outside the academic world, too.

Having said all that, there is some definite synergy that I'm sure develops when you put a group of gifted kids together, and in the case of DD, I feel like she could explode like a rocket ship if given the opportunity to go as far as she could go every day. Further, there would be real value for her in learning how to be frustrated and work her way through difficulties, and to not always be the smartest one in the room. In many respects, she'd be able to function to her highest potential ...

... in the classroom, at least. What about outside the classroom? Will soccer practice and 4-H (or whatever) be enough social acculturation for her to learn how to live in the real world, too?

I'd really appreciate any insights you have.

We just moved DS9 into a GT program within a "normal" school. There are ~60 gifted kids in a school of ~500. In theory they mix at lunch and recess but from what I can tell DS seems to mostly stick with his friends from class (although maybe others mix more, hard to say). They are the kids that he has stuff in common with.

TBH one of the best things that have come out of this is that DS is no longer "the smart kid" and he is now surrounded by lots of smart kids. We haven't seen any "hothouse" behaviour (although DS would probably be oblivious to it even if there was). DS knows most of the world is not gifted but he was having a really hard time in a regular class where no one else shared his interest or enthusiasm for diving deep into topics. He dealt with this by basically shutting down and not talking at all in class. The teachers were only focused on his LD and constantly being frustrated that he wasn't particularly interested in writing 22+34 in pictures, numbers and words. He refused to do work and was a grumpy disaster who complained bitterly about having to do baby stuff. As far as thinking he was "better", he had already come to that conclusion before we moved him, putting him in a room full of other gifted kids has been the best cure for that

I will say our GT program is not about marks or tests. They strive to keep their drive and love of learning alive. Obviously GT programs and classmates vary hugely so YMMV.

DS still plays sports and is in Cubs. We have family friends and the kids on the block that he plays with. He's always gravitated towards other smart kids even in those activities and at his old school. I figure he doesn't need 6.5 hours a day for 12 years of real world exposure and frustration to be able to function with whoever he needs to when needed.

DD7 isn't having as rough of a time in her normal class but I suspect we will move her as well. With DS we really had no choice, school was a disaster and something had to change. Now that we've seen the program in action we're sold.

You might consider, if you move, looking for an area with a variety of educational options. You may get lucky with a great match at the first school, but many of us have had to change at least once. Flexibility can be helpful.

Given that you plan to have your children involved in activities like 4H (great choice for many reasons) and soccer, I'd not worry so much about the perceived value of "normal" interactions during the school day. Everything outside of school provides an opportunity to interact with many types of people, and that's especially true when parents are sensitive and trying to make sure those interactions happen. I think sometimes we overvalue this as a benefit of a traditional school environment and forget the real downsides for a highly gifted child. Things like bullying, standing out too much, over praise for things that come easily, lack of learning to wrestle with learning challenges, feeling like there must be something wrong with you because you are so different than your classmates, trying to fit in and dumbing yourself down to do so (especially a concern for girls). I'm speaking from personal experience as well as research I've come across. :-)

Before you move, however, have you fully explored the various options in your small school? Sometimes a great deal can be done if the administration and teachers are flexible.

Regarding this concern "The world is not filled with gifted kids, and I worry further that there is an "institutional" effect, where GT kids get so accustomed to the postive feedback loop of a GT school that they find themselves unable to function well without it - which is to say, in the real world, no one is giving you grades for how well you do on tests, right? (Unless you remain in an academic environment.) You need to be able to succeed outside the academic world, too."

I would consider whether this is a real issue for gifted programs, versus what happens in any school environment that is heavily based on how one does on tests and assignments. I would say that this happens for a gifted child in most school environments (or any child who does well in school) and is a larger societal issue. Speaking as someone who has seen this as a transition challenge from college to the working world for many new hires, none of whom went through a GT program to my knowledge, but all of whom were top students.

Yeah, you remember that old Simpsons episode, where Lisa is begging, "Judge me, judge me"? I worry a bit about that with gifted kids in general, that they become pretty dependent on the constant "judgement" of good grades and high scores on tests all the way through college so that when they enter the real world where no one cares what your GPA was, they can get a bit lost. Something along those lines happened to me; it was bewildering at first to be out of college, and I almost ran straight back to graduate school just because it was a system I understood. Several high-performing friends of mine from college went to law school within a couple years of college graduation, not because they particularly wanted to be lawyers, but because the big mean world was hard and law school offered a system they understood ... and, of course, they were able to get good LSAT scores. Some of them were wonderfully creative people, but fell back on the tried and true (standardized tests) when it came to getting creative in their actual, post-school lives.

Of course, parents can ameliorate that with activities like sports and 4-H and, later, some exposure to the actual world. (For instance, I plan on insisting that my kids get a minimum-wage, bottom-of-the-totem-pole job in HS, because I feel like that is an invaluable experience - if nothing else, it teaches you that working for minimum wage ain't much fun, which will hopefully expunge any later slacker tendencies they might be tempted to!)

As for our local school district, they have been pretty flexible, actually, but there are limits to what they are going to be able to do and, as we've learned the last couple years, it's going to be a new battle each and every year with a new teacher to try and arrange things, and here it is November, and they're only just barely starting to do some walk-to-math for DD (and not anything else, in any other subject). The local school district simply has other, more pressing priorities, such as bringing themselves into Title IV (? - I know it's one of those) compliance, and a student body that is ~60% free & reduced lunch, Common Core applications, etc. DD is never going to be a top priority and I think we just have to accept that. Our choice is either to fight the machine, or move on. I'm leaning towards the latter.

And, excellent point about being around other gifted kids being the "cure" for feelings of elitism. I wouldn't mind if DD stuck mainly with her fellow gifted kids on the playground or whatever, because in that case it'd at least be clear to her that there's a whole wider world out there where no one cares if you are gifted - it's all about whether you can kick the kickball and get on base (and, years down the road, whether you can them to sign on the line which is dotted, to quote Glenngarry Glennross).

I would lean towards the GT program inside a school, particularly for your DD8 since they are more likely to have 3rd grade as the main entry point when many GT programs take off. If your DD8 is an older 2nd grader with an early Fall birthday, she would have the opportunity to test in with all the other kids. If she is a 3rd grader, she would not have missed as much of the program, both the academic & social opportunities.

Assuming the GT program is strong/selective, it may actually provide a comparable peer group along with the range of non-academic activities. On the other hand, I wouldn't worry too much about your description of a "hothouse environment". I have found that kids develop strong social and coping skills based more on their innate abilities than the environment, unless said environment happens to be extremely deficient.

It does not matter what the program is - if it adequately meets the needs of your child, then it is a great program. Being in a GT environment where some kids are academically stronger and smarter and quicker than my son taught him humility and the fact that no matter how good you are, there will always be someone better. He is not hothoused - he has instead transitioned from a child who was considered "the smartest" to a child who has to work hard in order to keep up with some kids in his class room. Now, he frequently stands up and speaks his opinions in class rather than choosing to dumb down and blend in and he works hard because things no longer come easily to him.

And he meets a lot of other kids by playing after school sports and also in our social circle - even though most are not academically as advanced as him, he still has things to learn from them - we are a non-TV family with no exposure to popular media and electronic games - so, he does not feel elitist when interacting with them - rather, he feels that they have a lot to teach him about popular culture!

Before you relocate, I would caution you to do the due diligence on the school choices - shadow them, talk to other parents, ask the gifted co-ordinator about what they can do for your children etc - because in our experience, many times, what looked good on paper did not turn out as we expected.

Good luck.

Very much this. For our DS, we felt that his district wasn't going to be able to provide this as well as a different school dedicated to the needs of the GT student, partly due to approach but also partly due to exposure. Teachers in a GT school are more likely to see a wider array of needs from GT students than a special program in a district school, since every student is GT. That means more teachers "get" him more quickly, and he will get more exposure to a variety of teachers who will also "get" him.

He's gone from a big fish in a little pond (in his district school) to just a more typical-sized fish in a bigger pond.

DS7 adores his friends he made at Kindergarten last year, and we still see them on a regular basis. He's never thought of himself as "better" than them, I'm pretty sure.

My oldest child went from being in a "typical" school to a highly selective gifted magnet to, now, an academic magnet which is selective, but not as much so as the gifted one was. She was the most humble and grounded about her abilities at the gifted magnet, where she saw that she was not the smartest fish in the sea. At the "regular" school, she developed some egotistical "School is meaninglessly easy and I'm the best one at it" thinking, which I am now starting to see returning in a less intense environment.

How long did it take for your post to go online after submitting it?thx

Wow you have a lot of options including relocating! Just make sure you don't move for "the one" school as schools and children's needs change.

Also a word of warning regarding siblings. Most have IQ's close together but not all. My younger tests 15 points below the older. If my older scored around 140 that would put my younger below the cut off for most programmes. My younger had earlier milestones and was more verbal so i was surprised. Your younger is probably around 140 but if she is 155 or 125 solutions put in place for your older may not work for her.