Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy External vs. Internal Motivation

External vs. internal motivation: Does it matter that much if it gets the job done?

By external motivation, I am not talking about a parent bribing their kids to study or ace a course or audition successfully. I am talking about a kid valuing an achievement for purely external sources of satisfaction/reward rather than an intrinsic sense of accomplishment/enjoyment.

A while back, DD12 successfully auditioned for a regional instrumental music program and recently performed the concert after all the rehearsals. She had previously commented with amazement after the first rehearsal that it was so much better than playing with her school group, including the after-school honors group. I asked her if it was worth all the effort/commitment. I was a bit disturbed by my her response but on reflection, I am not sure that I should have been. She responded that it was only worth it for the bragging rights (she got recognition at school for being offered a seat) and the potential college scholarships but it was a pain making up school work. In other words, she wouldn't want to do it otherwise. The scholarship bit did not come from me - she had heard it somewhere else. It is great that she is thinking about the future but I was hoping that she would just love music and gaining competency for its own sake. What do other parents think?

Sounds like your daughter is well-prepared for the real world, where we don't always get to do what we love and sometimes end up doing things just for the pay, health insurance, better commute, better school district for our kids, etc. A little cynicism now might mean less disillusionment later.

Do I sound disillusioned?

I have a kid just like yours - so, I will be stopping by to see what everyone shares.

It is a lot of extra work for her at a busy time of life. That doesn't mean she doesn't love it just that the price requires more payback than love. I think doing things because they benefit us is internal motivation in a way - and it is the reality of life.

I'd be uncomfortable with her outlook/attitude. It's one thing to acknowledge that life can be very difficult and that sometimes you have to do stuff you'd rather not do --- these lessons are very important. At the same time, I wouldn't encourage the kind of cynicism that sees activities as stepping stones to...more stepping stones. What about the student who didn't get to do this activity because someone took a seat for bragging rights? What if that person really wanted to do it and was very excited about the idea?

IMO, the kind of motivation that comes from being recognized externally is the kind of motivation that dries up when things get tough and/or people have stopped saying "Great job!!" So, what would happen if she finds an activity that promises more bragging rights than the current one? Will she abandon the orchestra in favor of it? Even if she sticks with the orchestra for the year, will her prioritization of bragging rights over internal reward put her at risk for losing interest in a future activity when she's not getting enough praise? Even if she picks her activities appropriately for the stepping stones they provide, what will happen in adulthood if she follows a path for its status, only to discover that it makes her miserable internally? How many adults suffer under that terrible weight?

I'm not making assumptions or accusations here, but rather am providing food for thought.

I think Val is asking some very good questions. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean that a person should do that, speaking on a personal level.

What is "right" for one person is utterly wrong for another, first and foremost. Life isn't like a birding list, after all.

I'd also be looking carefully at whether or not you feel that socially-prescribed perfectionistic tendencies exist, and to what degree. This sounds a bit like that kind of mindset, honestly. Have you seen any signs of imposter syndrome?

Being "The Best Young _______ in the ______!!!" is the sort of recognition and heady affirmation that simply stops existing after a while-- for anyone. It's a particular pitfall, I think, for HG+ youngsters since much of the attention, especially for PG ones, is leveled at the things that they can do which resemble adult (or older juvenile) accomplishments. What happens when they ARE adults, hmmm? Now those things just look kind of, well-- solid, but not exceptional. Being able to read medical research papers at a rate of dozens of pages per hour, for example: extraordinary in a twelve-year-old, and not-so-much in a twenty-four-year-old.

This is one reason why the entire Wunderkind thing has always made me extremely uneasy when other adults do it with my DD-- I want her to be happy and challenge herself to enjoy LEARNING. Not showing how much further ahead of others she is already. Because those untrained/innate/raw skills, left alone, are ones that others will catch up to eventually, and maybe even surpass with superior work ethic and devotion. They aren't what makes her different or worthwhile.

The thing about this sort of attention is that even when it does continue to exist, it comes at increasingly heavy personal cost, often to the tune of hiding any and all struggle, work and vulnerability in favor of seeming effortlessly omnipotent-- something which none of us really are, at least not if we are challenging ourselves and being honest about the work that we put into looking that way.

If being "better" without working at it much is what individual self-worth is built around, it points to trouble up ahead, in my estimation.

So, it could be something to worry about, or it might not be, excellent points coming from Val and HK (of course). Given that her early reaction was that it was so much better than the school group, it may be that she's tired from the extra work and still trying to figure it all out in her own mind. Maybe an opportunity to ask how she feels about the musical part of it all (I know that's what you were asking, but the focus on was it worth it could take one's mind to trade-offs, vs. enjoyment).

It does open the door for a conversation about wanting to do things for their own value, which ideally then can also line up nicely with college apps, etc. The order there is important, as noted above...

The other thing - is that her speaking or someone else in the group? Is she too cool to admit she love music for music's sake? Does she think looking good on college applications is more socially acceptable as a reason?

Purist vs. Pragmatist?

How long was the conversation?

My DD11 contradicts herself constantly. In this case, I don't think it's an either/or situation but kids sure do have trouble coming to terms with grey areas, sometimes. Sometimes saying these things out loud is just one way of thinking them over.

(I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be too alarmed. I'm not sure it's really possible to tease out external/internal motivation most of the time, anyhow.)

I agree with puffin and Eco on this one. Depending on the school environment, kids can hear a lot of strange things coming from their peers (or indirectly from their peers' parents.) We have even heard these kinds of comments, more often than you would think, from teachers and school counselors.

My kids both participate in an extracurricular academic team- at the middle school level (high school seems better for some reason) about half the kids are there because they love the material, the comradarie of the group, the thrill of the challenge, etc. The other half are there because they believe it will look good to colleges (middle school level!) or their parents have insisted they participate, and expect them to excel there. In reality, I suspect most kids have a mixed bag of motivations, with some closer to one end or the other. It's hard to force kids to do activities like this if they are truly not interested.

We discuss it frequently with our kids, mainly to help them understand the behaviors and attitudes of some of their friends. There can be tremendous parental pressure on some kids, and I find that the kids living with this type of expectation often parrot the lines about college application padding, even in middle school. In truth, some are punished or diminished for less than stellar outcomes, whether in grades or extracurricular activities. (Just yesterday DS mentioned that a friend who earned a spot in a county-wide music ensemble was worried that her parents would blame her for not earning a higher chair level- ugh.) Modern society can be pretty messed up.