Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy External vs. Internal Motivation

External vs. internal motivation: Does it matter that much if it gets the job done?

By external motivation, I am not talking about a parent bribing their kids to study or ace a course or audition successfully. I am talking about a kid valuing an achievement for purely external sources of satisfaction/reward rather than an intrinsic sense of accomplishment/enjoyment.

A while back, DD12 successfully auditioned for a regional instrumental music program and recently performed the concert after all the rehearsals. She had previously commented with amazement after the first rehearsal that it was so much better than playing with her school group, including the after-school honors group. I asked her if it was worth all the effort/commitment. I was a bit disturbed by my her response but on reflection, I am not sure that I should have been. She responded that it was only worth it for the bragging rights (she got recognition at school for being offered a seat) and the potential college scholarships but it was a pain making up school work. In other words, she wouldn't want to do it otherwise. The scholarship bit did not come from me - she had heard it somewhere else. It is great that she is thinking about the future but I was hoping that she would just love music and gaining competency for its own sake. What do other parents think?

Sounds like your daughter is well-prepared for the real world, where we don't always get to do what we love and sometimes end up doing things just for the pay, health insurance, better commute, better school district for our kids, etc. A little cynicism now might mean less disillusionment later.

Do I sound disillusioned?

I have a kid just like yours - so, I will be stopping by to see what everyone shares.

It is a lot of extra work for her at a busy time of life. That doesn't mean she doesn't love it just that the price requires more payback than love. I think doing things because they benefit us is internal motivation in a way - and it is the reality of life.

I'd be uncomfortable with her outlook/attitude. It's one thing to acknowledge that life can be very difficult and that sometimes you have to do stuff you'd rather not do --- these lessons are very important. At the same time, I wouldn't encourage the kind of cynicism that sees activities as stepping stones to...more stepping stones. What about the student who didn't get to do this activity because someone took a seat for bragging rights? What if that person really wanted to do it and was very excited about the idea?

IMO, the kind of motivation that comes from being recognized externally is the kind of motivation that dries up when things get tough and/or people have stopped saying "Great job!!" So, what would happen if she finds an activity that promises more bragging rights than the current one? Will she abandon the orchestra in favor of it? Even if she sticks with the orchestra for the year, will her prioritization of bragging rights over internal reward put her at risk for losing interest in a future activity when she's not getting enough praise? Even if she picks her activities appropriately for the stepping stones they provide, what will happen in adulthood if she follows a path for its status, only to discover that it makes her miserable internally? How many adults suffer under that terrible weight?

I'm not making assumptions or accusations here, but rather am providing food for thought.

I think Val is asking some very good questions. Just because you can do something doesn't always mean that a person should do that, speaking on a personal level.

What is "right" for one person is utterly wrong for another, first and foremost. Life isn't like a birding list, after all.

I'd also be looking carefully at whether or not you feel that socially-prescribed perfectionistic tendencies exist, and to what degree. This sounds a bit like that kind of mindset, honestly. Have you seen any signs of imposter syndrome?

Being "The Best Young _______ in the ______!!!" is the sort of recognition and heady affirmation that simply stops existing after a while-- for anyone. It's a particular pitfall, I think, for HG+ youngsters since much of the attention, especially for PG ones, is leveled at the things that they can do which resemble adult (or older juvenile) accomplishments. What happens when they ARE adults, hmmm? Now those things just look kind of, well-- solid, but not exceptional. Being able to read medical research papers at a rate of dozens of pages per hour, for example: extraordinary in a twelve-year-old, and not-so-much in a twenty-four-year-old.

This is one reason why the entire Wunderkind thing has always made me extremely uneasy when other adults do it with my DD-- I want her to be happy and challenge herself to enjoy LEARNING. Not showing how much further ahead of others she is already. Because those untrained/innate/raw skills, left alone, are ones that others will catch up to eventually, and maybe even surpass with superior work ethic and devotion. They aren't what makes her different or worthwhile.

The thing about this sort of attention is that even when it does continue to exist, it comes at increasingly heavy personal cost, often to the tune of hiding any and all struggle, work and vulnerability in favor of seeming effortlessly omnipotent-- something which none of us really are, at least not if we are challenging ourselves and being honest about the work that we put into looking that way.

If being "better" without working at it much is what individual self-worth is built around, it points to trouble up ahead, in my estimation.

So, it could be something to worry about, or it might not be, excellent points coming from Val and HK (of course). Given that her early reaction was that it was so much better than the school group, it may be that she's tired from the extra work and still trying to figure it all out in her own mind. Maybe an opportunity to ask how she feels about the musical part of it all (I know that's what you were asking, but the focus on was it worth it could take one's mind to trade-offs, vs. enjoyment).

It does open the door for a conversation about wanting to do things for their own value, which ideally then can also line up nicely with college apps, etc. The order there is important, as noted above...

The other thing - is that her speaking or someone else in the group? Is she too cool to admit she love music for music's sake? Does she think looking good on college applications is more socially acceptable as a reason?

Purist vs. Pragmatist?

How long was the conversation?

My DD11 contradicts herself constantly. In this case, I don't think it's an either/or situation but kids sure do have trouble coming to terms with grey areas, sometimes. Sometimes saying these things out loud is just one way of thinking them over.

(I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be too alarmed. I'm not sure it's really possible to tease out external/internal motivation most of the time, anyhow.)

I agree with puffin and Eco on this one. Depending on the school environment, kids can hear a lot of strange things coming from their peers (or indirectly from their peers' parents.) We have even heard these kinds of comments, more often than you would think, from teachers and school counselors.

My kids both participate in an extracurricular academic team- at the middle school level (high school seems better for some reason) about half the kids are there because they love the material, the comradarie of the group, the thrill of the challenge, etc. The other half are there because they believe it will look good to colleges (middle school level!) or their parents have insisted they participate, and expect them to excel there. In reality, I suspect most kids have a mixed bag of motivations, with some closer to one end or the other. It's hard to force kids to do activities like this if they are truly not interested.

We discuss it frequently with our kids, mainly to help them understand the behaviors and attitudes of some of their friends. There can be tremendous parental pressure on some kids, and I find that the kids living with this type of expectation often parrot the lines about college application padding, even in middle school. In truth, some are punished or diminished for less than stellar outcomes, whether in grades or extracurricular activities. (Just yesterday DS mentioned that a friend who earned a spot in a county-wide music ensemble was worried that her parents would blame her for not earning a higher chair level- ugh.) Modern society can be pretty messed up.

I would not be alarmed. At this age, she is probably trying to figure out how she feels about it. Many gifted kids may be good at both things they enjoy and those they do not. In addition, there are so many things that influence them, including friends and parents, and it is hard to figure it all out.

I'm of two minds on this.

I. On the one hand, she could be down-playing her accomplishment, trying to say "it's not that big a deal." Reasons of this could be things like (a) it's not a "cool" activity so she doesn't want to admit to being thrilled by it; (b) it means a LOT to her. So much that it's personal and private and she doesn't want to be pushed on it or congratulated or anything that would require talking to somebody else about the accomplishment. FYI - this is my son. We learned very, very early that if we do typical parental congrats, he'll just say "that's a Mom-love statement," and he'll even drop it if we talk about it too much; (c) well - she's 12. Nearly anything could be going on in the head.

II. On the other hand, this could be a sort of accolade-grab that she actually does NOT care about for itself. Certainly there are many kids who do this. Usually this starts because the kids are pushed by parents into a laudatory activity they don't really have any passion for. But they're good kids and capable so they excel and win. Then that cycle repeats and accelerates with the sort of icky potential that HK discussed. And it's frankly selfish - though I don't think the kids usually realize they are being selfish. It's just a path of least resistance they fall onto.

So - sorting this out probably requires a chat with her. I'd want her to understand that if she is in the II space, she's probably giving into social pressure in a way that hurts herself and others. If she's in the I space, counsel her not to downplay her accomplishments. Gracefully accepting accolades is a skill, and she can follow-up with "but goodness I'd really rather talk about something else. Are you done with your Christmas shopping [or some such re-direct]."

In any event to her - congrats to her! I hope she has fun playing music with other accomplished musicians. It's a soaring feeling!
Sue

Not so much disillusioned as pragmatic. I have to say that in many ways I do not coddle DD and she has had to undertake undesirable tasks as part of the tasks of daily living with just such preparation (for real world) in mind.

Helping them strike a beneficial balance can be more difficult in some ways when they are already consciously weighing everything.

That's an excellent point, Puffin. It really is partly an issue of this particular love not being quite enough by itself and the particular price being high. She makes me buy her tons of pop music scores that she plays around with sporadically but 7 hours of rehearsal in a single day (with 45 minutes for lunch) to achieve a "perfect" performance from everyone felt wasteful to her.

I don't actively encourage cynicism but at the same time I don't discourage it either: some of her classmates are so clueless and still think the world revolves around them and that they can have something just because they want it. We have actually had a related conversation and neither I nor DD felt sorry for the students who did not get in for the simple reason that they did not possess talent and/or did not practice sufficiently. This is not a lottery situation nor a Ivy League admissions situation with crazy ratios. This is more akin to the question of whether GT classes should admit students who lack the requisite intelligence and/or high achievement just because they and/or their parents was very excited and really wanted to do it. Believe it or not there were actually students who apply to audition and somehow thought it was okay to audition WITHOUT mastering the assigned pieces. WTH? I am not talking about a crazy level of practicing/preparation - DD only practices a couple of hours a week total although she has some natural talent.

You bring up some important questions about motivation. I totally agree that motivation should not come solely from external recognition. In reality though, there are interactions of so many considerations that it can be difficult to tease apart all the tendrils.

Again, these are some important issues that you brought up. Thankfully (perhaps?), DD is not a wunderkind in music so this domain at least isn't a danger. For DD in any case, I don't think socially prescribed perfectionism or imposter syndrome are concerns at this point. It really helps that she has a brother who has higher ability in most of the traditional academic domains but that that she has received her own share of recognition for actual concrete accomplishments. I have never tried to spare her feelings from reality and as a result, she knows that she is one of the brightest in her school but that there are tons of people out there with higher ability. After all, even 0.1 % of one million is 1000 people. She also really gets it that high ability must intersect with effort to result in any worthwhile achievements.

You are absolutely right. I think that she was trying to figure out her own priorities and that the trade-off issue took center stage.

Good point - she is swayed by her peers although in this case, it is likely her speaking.

That is an apt analogy. It was a brief conversation and I didn't want to grill her so you are onto something regarding grey areas and the intertwining of external/internal motivation.

That is a very accurate description of what is going on in our middle school environment as well. I have also discussed with DD the extracurricular activities issue with college applications but more in the context of searching/finding/focusing on activities that she naturally enjoys with an eye to the long term. Unfortunately, there are certain activities that you have to try by middle school or you will be completely shut out in high school. That is sad about your DS' friend - hopefully from her parents' perspective, it was more a question of her performance and/or her preparation versus her established ability.

Yes - absolutely. I am sometimes surprised at what she tells me about her friends.

No downplaying her accomplishment here. DD is actually a closet competitor - it's funny because she is so "tactful" and "easygoing" that no one would criticize her as competitive but she is. I guess I can't really blame her, it comes from being stuck with a very high ability sibling from K and feeling the need to carve her own niche.

I agree that in the second scenario, the cycle can accelerate and become icky. However, I don't see the selfishness aspect - if she outperformed the next candidate, then that candidate needed to improve; "accolades" should not be charitable distributions.