Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Discipline?

This is a tough topic for us. DS12 is ASD with anxiety, perfectionism, low self-esteem.

While he has been doing a little better in school and with assignments lately, he has been mouthing off at home, and to some extent in school.

He seems to be angry, and he has been easily bored of late. I know this can be signs of depression, though he also has fun when engaged with things he finds enjoyable.

Recently he has been increasingly disrespectful around the house, refusing to do chores, acting aggressively, etc. My wife and I have tried traditional punishments, such as taking away electronics, limiting other privileges, but these approaches seem to just make his behavior worse.

I've had the most success through patience and being sympathetic toward him. Given some time to cool off, he usually comes around and apologizes, but he will not back down in the heat of the moment. Some of his responses are probably just hormones and need time to be worked out, though I am concerned that there may be underlying depression.

Reasoning with him or pointing out his irrational behavior does not work. If he is calm he might understand, but when angry, he is like a brick wall.

Thoughts?

Well, my DD16 lived through this age with anxiety/perfectionism/low self-esteem-- and without ASD, though she has always had many spectrum-ey traits.

Our approach to discipline has always been much like Portia's. We are very strict with respect to behavioral CHOICES, and try to foster/coach emotional maturity and control. Still, I don't mind mentioning that the start of adolescence is pretty volatile for any child, and those with other confounding variables, well-- they may find it especially so.

DD found that retreat to low-sensory environments was a good way to manage. Many of my friends have used this approach with volatile children, regardless of LOG or diagnosis. No good can come of escalation in the moment-- for anyone, honestly.

Practice the statements that you would like to use to "cue" a behavioral time-out, and then sit down and rationally (when he's in the proper frame of mind, that is) lay out your behavioral contract, explaining that this is your job as a parent-- to help him learn to manage his behaviors so that he learns how to be functional as a teen and young adult. You can't throw tantrums at other people as a way to manage your frustrations. It just isn't done.

I could tell you what we did, but it's too idiosyncratic to be of use. We had a couple of "spots" in our home that were go-to "chill out" zones. We also developed a few "step down" exercises for use out and about-- though DD never really needed that in particular (again, idiosyncratic, probably).

"You cannot speak to me that way. You need to go to ______ until you are calmed down, please."

"You are acting as though you are two years old right now. If you really were two, I would put you down for a nap. I think that might still be a good idea-- go sit on your bed, please."

"Stairs. Sit. Now."


I also used to walk away SO THAT I WOULD NOT ENGAGE with her.

Pretty much what Portia said. Irrationality while in the throes of anger is not an ASD/depression/anxiety trait, it's a normal one, and in a gifted kid with emotional intensity, the response is similarly intense.

We find that the key to dealing with this is to send our DD10 off to be by herself to deal with her emotions, because engagement at that point will only bring escalation. We wait until she's ready to have the conversation in a more rational frame of mind. Sometimes that sends her into an emotional feedback loop-slash-death spiral, and we have to check in with her from time to time in an attempt to short circuit that.

Only once the raw emotions have been brought under control can constructive parenting begin.

I'm hijacking a little, sorry--but how do you make that determination?

Exactly. DD has ADHD and EF issues and in third grade she was very slow and off task and wasn't completing work. She would also hide her work or lie about it. The teacher kept sending me emails saying that she needs to make better choices, which ticked me off, but on the other hand it really wasn't Ok that she was hiding her work.

In fourth grade the teachers didn't seem to know how to approach her issues at all. She spent a lot of time wandering around the classroom or hallways and doing nothing because she knew she could get away with it. How much do you pressure a student with a disability to get their act together?

I wouldn't assume the reason she's wandering/being unproductive is because she knows she can get away with it. It's so easy to think we understand the motivation behind a behavior, and be totally, dead wrong about it. (I'm saying that as an often-chagrined parent).

Here's an example: I recently found out that this one particular stupid thing that got DS in trouble FIVE years ago was because he was covering up something he was self-conscious about. Yes, really, it took him five years to explain it to me.

It's really hard to figure out what's driving behavior, isn't it?

Sorry, I've been busy for a couple of days, but yes, I had the same exact question. If this were easy to figure out, I don't think parenting a 2e kid would be nearly as challenging.

Whoa, I want to back up a little here.

My family's perspective is that ASD behaviors must be addressed through "discipline"-- discipline comes from the word "disciple," one who is taught.

No matter why the behavior is happening, if it's socially undesirable, the person has to learn to not do that, or at least to choose very carefully when to do it because there are negative consequences for doing it.

This is fundamentally a *teaching* process (not punishment). It involves helping them see what is expected of them and to do that.

Agree, but the approach might be different for things a child knows how to do, but doesn't do and things they don't yet know or have the skills to do.

As a for instance: lying and/or hiding assignments. What if child knows better than to lie, but doesn't know how to ask for help or self-soothe when overwhelmed/anxious. (This is the kind of parenting quandary that drives me insane.) There should be consequences, but of what sort? I lean toward natural consequences (since you didn't tell the truth, I'm now going to monitor closely and communicate more frequently, etc.), but sometimes that seems pretty namby-pamby.

Dee Dee,

I totally agree with you, that regardless of the source of the behavior the discipline has to be directed at teaching a corrected behavior. But - for DS8 (Happy Birthday today to my little man), we really do need to understand the source.

If it's volitional, discussion of bad "choices" and alternatives, and tailoring natural consequences are reasonable and helpful.

If it 2e-driven and NOT volitional, discussion of "choices" and "consequences" drives DS into a state of wild anxiety. In these instances, he did NOT make a bad choice, and no natural consequence will change the behavior.

To take it to a base level - a baby doesn't make a choice to poop in his diapers, and you can't "natural consequence" him into stopping it. You have to support him (with diapers) until he has the capacity to learn to use a toilet.

Likewise for DS - he didn't "choose" to act out when he got overwhelmed, frustrated, whatever rose out of his 2e challenges. Any discipline that assumes he did is doomed to fail.

DS's teacher got a glimpse of this the other day. She sent me an email saying she wanted DS to help put together a good consequence. He suggested something very extreme - really an unconnected punishment. She said "but the consequence is to help you stop behavior." She said he looked totally shocked at the idea and said - "but it can't. I didn't mean to do it." The teacher was sincerely baffled. But honestly, I think she still thinks he's making "bad choices."

What do I do when it's not volitional? That's tough and situation dependent. It can't just wait-and-support, since he may not ever develop a full capacity for self control. But one thing I do always emphasize for him is that it's hard work growing up, and I'm there to help. I point out that math is easy for him, but harder for some kids. Controlling behavior is easy for some kids, but harder for him. They both have to work hard to learn.

Also, I give him hope that it will keep getting easier as he grows. It has been getting easier bit by bit, and I point out changes and improvements. But this all makes him feel really awful and lonely. The whole unconditional love thing keeps him going, I think.

So anyway, this is a longer than necessary post to say that - for us - discipline is hopeless if it doesn't derive from an understanding of the source of the behavior.

Absolutely.


This is a tricky one. I have found that most of the time a child with ASD lies it is to cover for a skills deficit somewhere in the chain of events-- fear of negative consequences trumps the rational response, so they try to lie. (Mostly they are bad at it.)

i.e. hides assignment because doesn't know how to even begin it, is ashamed, lying seems simpler in that moment, then being found out makes everything worse.

I try to uncover the skills deficit that's being covered for and work on that; acknowledge that lying is wrong and hurtful and *yes* I will be monitoring more closely because you are not showing me I can trust you.

But also that there's a better way to approach "being stuck" or "not knowing how to begin" and so we will now work on that skill every day until it's mastered.

Kid needs to know you have his back; also needs to know some skills for when things are tough; also needs to know that lying generally makes more trouble than it's worth.

And to answer this excellent question - lord only knows. When I know for sure - natural consequences come pretty hard and fast. But in general, I assume he's trying his best, and give benefit of the doubt unless I have good reason to be sure he was just being naughty.

This may well change as he gets older or starts being crafty with excuses. But, e.g., for this week when every kid in school is wild with excitement and there are parties and parades and haunted houses, and oh by the way his birthday is also this week, I pretty much assume any behavior comes out of his extremely elevated sensory "baseline." When the world is all wound up like this - he's just very, very, very close to snapping at any time.

Oh suevv, having a flashback, here. The most obnoxious communication I ever had with a teacher (on my part, anyhow) is when DS was in fourth grade and I received some email about his "bad choices" and I just lost my cool. I said something about this being inappropriate language and that nobody would accuse a child with seizures of choosing to have a seizure in class, so why would we use this language with a child with ADHD demonstrating poor impulse control. It was not my proudest moment. They stop using that gawdawful "choices" language so much, over time, thank goodness.

DeeDee, agree, DS here is really really bad at lying. Comically so. However, sometimes I pretend like I believe him (even when I don't) just because I'm so blasted tired that I want to hang out in denial for an evening.

Now at nearly 13, I see that he is becoming more likely to lie in an "antisocial" way than an avoidant way, at times--as in, the way a neurotypical teen would lie. This is twisted--but in a way, I'm glad. Even though I really hate dishonesty, it seems (relatively) developmentally appropriate and it demonstrates some level of savvy that I wasn't sure he was capable of. I was also pleasantly surprised when he was rudely, offensively, and hurtfully "embarrassed" by my "hovering" at his last school social event where I was chaperoning. He wanted me to stay away from him and leave him alone! And he was snotty about it! How ridiculous that this pleased me, even though it also did hurt my feelings. This parenting a child with social issues is a fun-house mirror, isn't it?

Suevv--your DS sounds so familiar to me. I'm so glad he has a mom like you in his corner. It's surprising how many parents don't seem to know or care about taking the time to understand their kids. I see this in my work, frequently, and it makes me sad.

This sounds so much like my DS16 at 12. Before I offer solutions I want to say is that at 16 DS is a very different person and some portion of that I credit just to maturity. The preteen years have are HARD, the changing hormones in their bodies make experiences more intense. I know it seems hard right now but with patience you too can have a mature polite teenager. I can't explain how proud of DS I am these days. He has come a long way from a the rude, introverted, anxious and depressed 12 year old.

But I agree that these behaviors can't be tolerated kids need to learn how to behave in a socially acceptable way and that you can't just ignore this. I ended up taking my DS to a psychologist at that age because he has anxiety disorder that was getting in the way at school. The psychologist helped by teaching him how to take control of his anxiety. Helped us agree how to respond to these situations. I found this really helpful. He really needed a 3rd party who wasn't so emotionally invested in the situation. Punishing by taking away electronics & other things usually backfired and made things worse. We learned to treat this as a manifestation of his stress and like others have mentioned DS would need to go somewhere and calm down.

What I found the hardest was other adults interfering who thought I just wasn't punishing him enough or the right way. I had relatives who told him to his face he was a rude little boy. It was frustrating because I was working with him and comments like that made things worse. Very frustrating and embarrassing for me particularly as I didn't feel like sharing all the details to every adult who came in contact with him.

Not sure how helpful my suggestions are but mostly I LISTENED to my kid, tried to find ways cope for him to cope with his anxiety, made clear cut expectations WITH him for what we would do before he blew up, and minimized the situations that would set him off.

This thread is so thought-provoking. Reading through, I think I've crystalized understanding about something: DS sometimes lies because he already told the truth and nobody believed him. Conversation goes something like this:

Authority: Why did you do that?

DS8 (small voice - telling the truth): I don't know.

Authority: You do know that [behavior] is unacceptable don't you?

DS8: Yes

Authority: Are you allowed to do that at home?

DS8 (confused b/c "allow" is irrelevant): No. Yes. I don't know.

Authority: Well, you know very well it's not allowed here. Why did you do it?

DS8: [says nothing]

Authority: Are you going to answer me? I'm waiting for an explanation.

DS8 (making up a string of inconsistent excuses now b/c he has to say something): "He started it. I didn't do it, somebody else did. It was an accident. People do that all the time."

Authority: We both know you are lying now. This is going nowhere. I'm imposing X discipline. Do you think that will help you learn not to do this.

DS8: I don't know.

Authority: HE'S TOTALLY REMORSELESS. HE PRACTICALLY TOLD ME HE WAS GOING TO DO IT AGAIN.

This must be agonizing for a kid who really is trying, and doesn't want to lie but feels backed into a corner. How do you get Authorities to understand that he really does not know why it happened or how to stop it. FWIW, this is a big part of the reason DS won't go to birthday parties or (see my other thread) trick-or-treating or most anywhere he'll get overwhelmed.

Thank you. And heavens above - I love this board.

Sounds familiar. Only my son at 12 would just shut up and stop talking. Honestly.. he would give up trying to answer and shut up. This really annoyed Authority figure and I would get a phone call. I have no idea why Authority figure would expect a 11/12 year olds to understand and be able to articulate why they did something. Drove me up the wall, I usually ended up having to take my son home for the rest of the day. (Headdesk)

Yuh huh, and either way it's a sign of NO REMORSE. Ugh! I heard that one, too, when DS was younger. The more recent incarnation is "he doesn't care." DS will tell you that he has made a conscious decision not to care, because he doesn't think he can change anyone's perceptions. My guess is he has that feeling because he doesn't understand how/why/when he messes up. DS now nods and agrees and then tells me he has no earthly idea what any of it meant, when he's made a teacher angry.

Questioning kids about their motivation is pretty much a dead-end street, unless they are unusually insightful and/or self-aware. Similar to trying to "catch them lying." Why, even? How about direct communication? I found it a little bit ironic that DS' teacher told me he was being "aggressively passive aggressive" when she spoke in vagaries to him when trying to explain what he was doing wrong in class (my thread). He probably does, indeed, sound aggressive and he is, in fact, passive--but passive aggressive? He's not even capable of that level of manipulation. The idea that a kid with ASD could deliberate to that degree about social communication is funny, really.

Amen!