Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Private Vs Public schools

Hi everyone ,
DS is gifted in Math (He is a DYS) and is attending the local public school (1st grade). The school promised to put him in 2nd grade math but when it came to actually doing it , told us that they can't do it because of scheduling conflicts (In spite of reminding them more than once this could be an issue and it is something they need to work out when they work on schedules).Now he is getting some differentiation in the class but again it is piece meal. He says he likes school but he does not seem excited about anything he learns except the enrichment class for science he has once a week for an hour. At home , he compensates by doing Khan academy etc.. Question is ...Could a private Montessori school be a better option Vs a public school. The cost involved is huge for us (fees, we also need to move...). I 'am confused and I would like the input of this group of highly engaged and intelligent parents

I know other parents who have gone the Montessori route and been happy but it probably depends on each particular school and how they have things structured. I wouldn't move or do anything drastic unless you are able to talk to them in detail, ask specific questions about how they would place him, and possibly try out the school (some schools will allow kids to attend for a day or two without enrolling).

We had the same issue with our DS and math and decided that even if they moved him up one grade for math, it would still be way too easy. I advocated for having him do work within the regular grade level classroom at his own pace (for instance doing advanced workbooks/khan academy), but he wasn't supervised very well and ultimately we decided to move him to a school that is sending him 3 grade levels ahead for math (luckily the school has their math schedules aligned).

@blackcat - "We had the same issue with our DS and math and decided that even if they moved him up one grade for math, it would still be way too easy. I advocated for having him do work within the regular grade level classroom at his own pace (for instance doing advanced workbooks/khan academy), but he wasn't supervised very well" - This is exactly what is happening with us .


Is the new school a public school? How did you advocate for the push?

It's a public school but we didn't need to move because of open enrollment in our state. It has a non-tradiational format and they combine grades so, for instance grades 2/3 are combined anyway, and then they ability group within those grades. DS was in second grade but didn't fit into 2/3 though, for math, so they moved him to 4/5 for math and he was doing 5th-6th grade math with a group of mostly 5th graders. Then the next year they just moved him along with the same group of kids and he's going to a 6th grade classroom now. I didn't have to advocate, but the school had a curriculum coordinator who used to be a g/t coordinator in another district. She just looked at his test scores and it was a no-brainer for her. She actually placed him too high and then I advocated to get him moved down a bit. Anyway, to answer the question, it really is the non-tradiational structure of the school that was the solution, although they did know that we switched schools partly because the situation with the other school was so bad, with DS teaching himself math, and they knew that was unacceptable to us (so they were trying to do the right thing for DS). A lot of the kids are actually informally accelerated-- probably 25 percent of the kids are working a grade level ahead for math. Even though it's public, it's not structured like a traditional public school. The key is that nothing is "formal". If a kid is moved too high, then they can easily move them back down. The other district was so rigid with their acceleration policies, stating that once you move a kid (even if it's just for math) that's it. You don't move them around. So they have unrealistic policies about acceleration, requiring kids to be 98 percent accurate on tests, because they don't want to risk moving someone and then having the kid not do well. And moving them more than one grade would be unheard of.

Ironically, a lot of parents complain about the structure of the building, how grades are combined, and the openness of the system, which allows kids to move around, and the district started talking about "putting up walls" (which to me, means both literally and figuratively). So many parents get upset about a structure where their 8 year old may not be in a class of 100 percent 8 year olds, where everyone is doing the same second grade work. People want the 30'X30' square room with one teacher, which is what they had growing up. So to find this non-traditional montessori-like format in a public school is, I think, rare.

So much of this depends on individual schools. We started in public school and eventually landed in a private school and it's been absolutely wonderful - a school where teachers listen to parents, where differentiation occurs both naturally in the curriculum and specifically. Our school is also very up front when they feel a family/student isn't going to be a good fit, because it's not good in terms of future pr and advertising to have a family pay tuition, send their child to the school, and then go away unhappy about their experience. On the flip side, we have two other private schools in our area that are extremely inflexible about curriculum etc.

As mentioned above, you're not likely to find any school that's a great fit for a PG student. OTOH, we've found that while curriculum and pace may not be ideal, being able to be with peers who are at least MG for the most part made a huge difference for our kids, so if you can't find an ideal curriculum/differentiation fit, consider classmates - and in our area (which may be quirky), you don't necessarily have to go to a "gifted" school to find "accidentally-gifted" classrooms (in terms of peers).

I'm also curious why you would have to move? For a private school? Is it distance commuting? If so, could you give the school a try with a long commute first before going to the time/expense/etc of moving, just to make sure it's all that you are hoping it will be.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Montessori is really very dependent on the school itself. We looked at 4 different ones, and out of those we looked at, I found 3 to have issues I could not overlook and only one that I liked. My daughter is in a 3-5 year old class at a Montessori and we love it. There is structure where although the children can pick their activities, they have lesson plans set up that the kids can watch or join and a part of the day where the children work on the same activity. But this is definitely specific to this school, and DD loves how her school is run. However, I sat through every single classroom for observation (twice) - the school said each class is driven by the personality of the teacher leading the room and that different children will do better with one vs another. This school was very serious in its role as a Montessori school but with the understanding that it is not one size fits all. None of the other ones I saw was like that nor had the structure this one had, while keeping to its Montessori roots. So - make sure to observe how the classes are run and ask about structure and such.

Private school... Again, very specific to that school community. DS5 is in a private school and thriving. He struggled (with lack of challenge) in a traditional pre-k hence a move to his current school (our district is rigid about age cutoff and he misses the K cutover by one day). We love it because he is having fun - his math group is already covering material that our public school curriculum does not cover until second grade, and they constantly have new things to work on - and for the first time ever, DS found a peer group that he loves being with. And, one of the things we love is the emotional intelliegence classes they provide for all kids and the respect we see the kids have for each other as a result of that emphasis on not just academics but on social and emotional awareness from upper school to pre-k. DD3 runs around in before school and after school with the school kids and the older kids just include her if she shows any interest in their activities. They have mixed age groupings everywhere so there is no "you are just a baby" even to my clearly underage DD. The kids learn from the start that everyone is to be treated with respect. And this is a core philosophy we agree with. So - in many ways, the school tends to reflect the values of the community and administration (and I suspect public schools are the same).

We have not been exposed to our local elementary school due to the fact they won't even allow DS to start yet, and we can not justify having DS struggle with more mind numbing boredom through another pre-k program while waiting to be eligible for public school.

Maths is an extremely easy thing to do outside of school.

One or two grades at elementary level (US standards) are trivial to cover in months not years.

I had my DD doing Singapore Maths on her own - she basically taught herself from the workbooks/text books with some occasional (rare) questions that I or DW straightened out in minutes.

Slighty more difficult now that the Common Snore is in place because they introduce basic data analysis and probability in the earlier grades now but a small amount of research will allow you to find supplemental materials to cover those.

Of course, all the above depends on the child's level of aptitude and whether or not it is motivated and want to learn the material enough to be autodidactic with it.

By the end of 2nd grade she was done with SG Maths so we started the next year with AoPS pre-algebra.

I expect that you will deal with the same BS public or private if you have a 1 in 1000 or above child but your wallets will be lighter if you go the private route.

I suppose that what I am trying to say is that if you after school with quality materials your child can still stay with his current friends and make material progress academically with Maths.

YMMV

Thank you all for your replies. This has been valuable .

@polarbear : The private school would entail a move eventually because of the distance. If we decide to do it , we would definitely do a try out and do the commute for a while before we actually move..

I agree that supplementing just for Math is relatively easy and we are doing it . I was looking at other things that might come with the private school - kids who are more like DS who like math and science, a diverse set of kids (The private school is actually more diverse than the public school DS is in). What are your thoughts on that ?

Hi mmom,

Here's my very cynical view as a person with kids aged 11-15. Take it for what any random stranger's opinion is worth....

My kids have been to various schools and I have a large number of math books (I collect them). What I've observed is that mathematics education in the United States is generally fair to poor. Overall, all the mainstream textbooks I've seen aim generally at teaching kids how to perform operations rather than teaching understanding of concepts and how different ideas fit together and relate to other areas. The schools follow this lead. If you hear phrases like "skills based," you're probably hearing, "learn the algorithm and move on." They pretend that writing an essay about addition is teaching concepts. I disagree....

Most of the teachers I've met at the K-8 level don't really understand mathematics; the 9-12 teachers are, well, less bad. K-5 teachers are known for having a poor understanding of the subject. So, combine poor knowledge with bad textbooks and IMO, the odds are against finding someone who'll really reach your son (and at his age, if you do, you'll say goodbye to that person after one year).

The Common Core/CC was supposed to fix a lot of these problems, but whoever was in charge left the implementation to the big ed textbook/testing companies. So they took a thoughtful set of standards and turned them into a dog's dinner of continued bad textbook mathematics.

I've read a lot about the CC; if implemented properly, it would be a gifted kid's dream. The lowest grade levels focus on concepts like the number line and equivalence and "addition is combining things." The idea is to weave these ideas into everything through the upper elementary grades and beyond. I'm not sure that's happening.

If you want some really good stuff on K-8 mathematics, try this page (belongs to a CC author). Use the stuff for teachers to teach the child. Instead of a private school, you could consider saving some money by keeping your son in a public school and hiring a mathy tutor who can go through this stuff with him.

My take on schools is that it is not just all about math levels... but the whole picture. I want to have my child engaged during the hours in school - with his peers and his learning environment. We already got a taste at 3 what it is like when he is not engaged, and we simply don't have the bandwidth to do afterschooling to make up for what he was frustrated over (or angry about not getting).

Everyone will have different options and opinions on what works for their family, but for me, having my child lashing out at home or spending hours whittling the time away until pickup is not worth dealing with mediocre school situation. And - for DS, having a peer group he has now has made it completely worth everything we have put in so far ... and he tends to be a well-liked child especially with the opposite gender, so it was not that no one would play with him, but rather that he felt out of sync with the kids at his old school. At his age, it is not purely about academics, but having a group he loves being with, and a place that emphasis not just academics but social and emotional development.