Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Throw your middle school exec function tips at me

DD is struggling a little bit with the transition to middle school. It is not the difficulty of the work (I know you all are shocked) but the complexity and number of "things to remember." She has a daily planner, which she keeps up with, but things are falling through the cracks.

One teacher in particular has a chaotic classroom and DD has missed several handouts (that is, they didn't get to her and DD didn't notice--this would be a pretty typical DD behavior) that are now late. DD didn't notice them at all--I did, because I checked online and saw them. DD has done them but keeps forgetting to hand them in, so they are getting later and later. I don't know how she can "remind herself" to turn them in. Thoughts?

That same class has a daily "turn it in as you leave class" assignment that DD has forgotten to hand in several times. I think this is handed out at the beginning of the class and they must remember to complete it and hand it in. Again, thoughts on how she can automatize this?

In addition, this teacher sends things home for parents to sign, etc that do not end up on the things they should write in their planner --that is, she throws it at them as they leave class, etc. These end up forgotten because they are not in the planner.

The class, IOW, is very hard to manage for a child who is not super great with remembering everything. DD is doing absolutely great with its actual content but is probably currently getting a C due to missed work.

This is the hardest one to handle (other teachers do not seem to be at the same level of micro "stuff" plus classroom chaos--as a parent, I am also finding that class a challenge as she has asked a lot of US!), but there are other things she is struggling with. In elementary, all HW was very clearly delineated and written on the board every day to copy in the planner, and DD dutifully did this and it worked out. This is a more fluid system with more kid responsibility and...yeah. The school also uses a combo system of written planner and Edmodo, which can confuse things.

As I write this out, I see that what is really happening here is that DD does fine with a strong system but when teachers expect her to be able to go off script and handle "extra" stuff, it's not great. She has no ADHD diagnosis--shows some signs, but it's mild. I don't think she would ever receive one that would get her accommodations. What I am looking for is tips and hacks so she can do better. At home, we rely heavily on checklists (at night, she goes through them to make sure she has done things like gather up all HW and record instrument practice) and they work very well. She is motivated to succeed.

This is a difficult situation, but I think the teacher's disorganization is a big part of the problem.

Maybe approach the teacher and ask for permission to email missed assignments in from home? Or ask for all assignments to be posted online so that you can make sure she gets them?

If your daughter's grades are suffering just because of this issue, she may qualify for a 504.

Not a bad idea. We would have to scan them...but they're just sitting there in her folder. However, I wonder if this would be considered a "request for special treatment," coddling, etc.

From what I am told about my district, is is very hard to get a 504 for a high-performing student. DD may get a C in this class, but it could be a B (depends on how she weights things) and is likely to get As or at worst high Bs in everything else. She is in advanced or acclerated-track classes for everything except, ironically, this class (it's an elective).

Some districts (people really) don't get that 2e kids exist. You may want to call a meeting with the teacher or an administrator and provide documentation regarding your daughter. Also maybe bring a few articles from experts discussing 2e issues.

Also, the school (if it is public) has an obligation to accommodate kids who have disabilities that prevent them from performing. You might want to consult with a special ed attorney for your options. I'd be surprised if you couldn't get a 504.

She doesn't have a diagnosis, though. She's actually in therapy for another issue, and ADHD eval is possibly on the table, but we did a lot of forms, etc and she didn't really come up as all that suspicious for ADHD. That said, it's still something on our radar, but they wanted to get to know her better before proceeding; the eval will not be covered by our ins co and it's $$$$.

My feeling is that she has some EF issues but is not fullblown ADHD. Her other issues are probably making it harder than typical to concentrate and be organized.

This can be a chicken and egg situation - to get a 504 or IEP it helps to have the initial eval, but those are indeed expensive.

With our son, we bit the bullet and paid $1500 out of pocket to get the eval, which lead to him being placed on an IEP. The school paid for about $7500 worth of additional testing and expert analysis after that.

I still would recommend a lawyer, but they cost as well.

However, without going through all of this effort, my 12yo with a super-high IQ would probably be suspended from school on multiple occasions. These kids really need help and the schools are legally obliged to provide it.

I am actually looking at eco's thread on "Need help covering another base" and it's got a lot of good tips. DD has some similar issues going on, though she uses her planner and is on board with its utility 100%.

Hmm.

Might be time for a conference with this teacher and your child-- one where you play the role of wanting to partner with the teacher to make sure that your child is getting the most out of the class, mastering the particular learning goals (what are those, again?? <-- often disorganized teachers haven't ever actually stated them for students, which is more than a little unfair if you ask me), understanding what grading is based upon and so on.

"Can you point me to that reference/document/etc?" Use that statement, and practice it in a very neutral tone, maybe even a pleasant and eager one if you can muster it.

Honestly, if the teacher CAN reach a little to help you bridge the gap, this could turn out to be a great learning experience for your child, and help her learn to adapt to a style that she doesn't innately find easy. That has a value all its own. I'd definitely bear that in mind as you try to work with this teacher. It's not about right/wrong even-- it's about bridging the apparent gap between what your child can manage and what this teacher (apparently) can. Disorganized/chaotic people are the BANE of rigid/highly structured ones everywhere. Think of it as a communications challenge.

Oh-- and good luck. My DD still struggles mightily with this type of instructor and she's in college. It was a nightmare when she was in middle school.

One tip that she probably cannot use, but which would be incredibly USEFUL if she could-- is to snap a photo of the board with a smartphone at a couple of intervals during class-- that way, at least the written info that she missed is captured. Can she record class on a voice recorder? It'd be a lot of work for you, but it would permit you to scaffold better note-taking and help her to recognize "clues" to "this information is important and I should write it down!"

Many kids are used to teachers using BOTH auditory and visual notes for the exact same information-- and when one doesn't, they miss a lot. It takes practice.

This is part of the problem. She hasn't been taught to use the planner. Our elementary school does the same thing. Instead of learning to write things down as they're assigned, they learn that you don't write it down until someone tells you to, and it's often at the end of the day, with the teacher adding explanation as they do it.

Who in the real world fills out their planner/calendar at the end of the day when someone tells them to? You write things down as they come up, knowing that this habit protects against forgetting.

As for the specifics of this class: where is she sitting? Some of this can be addressed, or at least helped, by placing her in the spot where the teacher will start the pile of hand outs and all the work coming in from other students will have to go past her. As with eco, a meeting with this teacher about classroom expectations and what the problems appear to be might alert the teacher to the reminders this child will need. Ask the teacher how your child can learn to be successful with remembering to hand things in at the end of this class each day.

If it makes you feel any better my DD is floundering a bit too.

I think that middle school EF demands necessarily get ramped up to prepare kids for high school and that some dropped balls are an inevitable part of learning the ropes.

I am monitoring this closely, it has been compounded by the fact the kids have all been given iPads to work on and maintain an agenda on. They are expected to type homework assignments along with due dates into their agendas. Sometimes my DD doesn't have time to type it all in before class leaves or sometimes she is late because she Maths class is over in the 8th grade end of the school whereas she is technically in 6th so she has to rush.

Last night I imposed a rule to help her advocate better for herself - she will own emailing the request for the assignment from the teacher. This should help her to get the work and to develop confidence in speaking up for herself with teachers.

If this is still an issue after a month I will have to try something else LOL

You're quite right--she needs to learn to cope with this teacher. The frustrated thing is, she is excited about the subject! It would stink if she got turned off due to this.

I think I am going to wait just a couple more weeks to see how things continue to go (it's POSSIBLE that some of this is new-school adjustment) and to let the teacher get to know DD. Most teachers like her these days, and that will help.


Ah yes--you are right. But she doesn't know how to do this yet! I think? As I have been thinking about her issues, it's occurring to me that I just don't know what teachers do to support or NOT support kids. Do they say, "It's time to hand in homework now," or not? (Maybe they just need to put it in a basket on the way in?) Do they remind them, "If you have those parent forms for me, pass them in" or not? Do they say, "Did everybody get the handout?" Do they say, "This is due Friday but I forgot to put that on the whiteboard, so add that to your planner"? I just have NO idea!


Ah. You are smart. Due to the way this class is set up, she is sitting in a weird spot where she is isolated. She actually brought this up. It cannot be changed. (sad trombone)

Why can't the seat be changed? Everything can be changed.

We just spent allllllllllll morning with two new docs for DS (psychiatrist and psychologist who will be doing therapy). I don't know if any of this will be helpful or relevant to you and your DD but here's my takeaway:

M.D. is going to begin treating anxiety with medication. His take is that there is a super duper (clinical term--ha) strong neurobiological component of ASD/ADHD-I type symptoms and the correcting the proper neurotransmitter imbalance has been life-changing for many of his patients. He referred to his "hall of fame" ASD patients who, once properly (medically) treated are able to reach their potential, academically and functionally.

Psychologist said that yes, it is right to advocate for DS to have an IEP with EF support and interventions but also said "good luck with that" and he is not aware of anyone in our district who has the requisite skill set. He recommended I start with Smart But Scattered (and I told him it's on my coffee table, but I was distracted from reading it--another ha) and that he will help me and DS work on the EF stuff from home. He said that there are other programs but this one is based in neuroscience and a good enough place to start.

I find the inability to turn in completed work to be the most frustrating situation, ever. Especially when it's not happening in very structured classes...like your DD, DS has over 100% in math, where the teacher follows the same structure every day.

We do have the scan/email accommodation in 504. I don't know, but doubt, that many of his teachers would be willing to do this without the accommodation. Ironically, the teachers who seem to be most willing to be flexible are in the classes where it's least needed.

If you manage to crack the code, please share.

ITA w/ Geofizz RE training to use the planner. Our elementary starts 1st graders on the planner with group copying at the beginning of the day but progresses as the child gets older. By 5th grade, the students know to copy down information conveyed orally during the middle and/or end of each class in a fluid way. Some kids catch on slower and less efficiently but surprisingly except for the ones who are clinical, they do given practice.

Your DD really doesn't appear to have a disability, although she may be on the lower end of normal. DS12 is in that category as well and I did let him suffer the consequences quite a few times starting late 4th grade. Prior to that, he had his twin as a crutch but there came a point when I felt the scale tipped where he would benefit more from failing than enabling. Of course, this only works if your DD cares about her grades and reputation and buys in to the concept of personal responsibility. DS still has occasional lapses, but so do most other 7th graders. The good news is that your DD will learn and will be ready in future years when more and more teachers will operate this way to some degree. Except for the chaotic description, everything else you mentioned are typical in high school classrooms and many middle school classrooms as well.

Your DD has to develop a new routine, particularly for this class, and she probably will just from being in the class week after week. With my oldest, who had an IEP with multiiple diagnoses, routine and clear labels help. For example, the left side folder pocket has a huge label in red that indicates "HW/CW: Must Turn In" while the front of the folder/binder lists steps for the beginnning and end of class, such as EMPTY Turn In pocket & check planner. Regarding the "turn in as you leave" assignment, it may help if your DD completes it ASAP and then place it on the same corner of her desk where nothing else goes. Again, automaticity requires time and practice to develop but if she establishes and sticks to the same routine, it will develop faster. Regarding parent info sheets and forms that get forgotten, my kids (and all their classmates) are provided a special folder, which is placed next to their planner (at the top of the required huge binder) where all such papers go. Again, it may take 6th graders a few weeks to get the hang of the system but it does help both students and parents to have one place to look. Of course, the students have to comply and put all such papers in that special folder, but it looks like something that your DD can get use to doing.

Good luck, it's not easy but achievable with time and practice. I also would not ever expect perfect results even if it does come naturally to some kids - DS still messes up now and again but it's recoverable when it's the exception rather than the norm. While he is still really spacey in general, he has an incentive (A's) to succeed in school and developed a system that works for him there.

Oh, I forgot - another couple of pointers from my kids' experiences: If she is at all capable of it, let her be in charge of emailing her teachers for help. I think teachers respond to students much quicker than to parents. DS probably had to email his Geometry teacher a couple of times a month just to get homework that he forgot to copy down in his planner. Unless you have an IEP or 504 kid and perhaps even then, many teachers by middle school don't look favorably on the parents and by extension the kids who won't communicate with them directly. Another huge help is to make friends with organized kids - DS got some hand-outs scanned/emailed to him from classmates, which is sometimes quicker than getting from the teachers.

This is a really good idea--I'm encouraging my DS to do this (get more friends' numbers so he can text or call). DD11 does it naturally. I was gobsmacked the first time I heard her on the phone with her BFF, going through a homework assignment they were both having trouble completing. Who knew kids do things like that?

The only thing is--it doesn't help with the #$%*& "doesn't turn in completed work" problem.

Last year, for awhile, I walked in with DS every. single. day. and put his homework assignments in teachers' mailboxes. That was before we had the "scan and email" accommodation added--and even a few times after, when there was so much that it was quicker to park and walk in with him.

So, she can't be moved (I don't think) because this is a class with assigned seats that are assigned in a set way based on a system (sorry to not be more specific, but I get paranoid about being IDed on this board!)

As I consider it, this class also does not have a desk, and has a lot of equipment she has to deal with. So, the class is really outside the norm in a lot of ways. No wonder she's discombobulated.


These are good ideas. This is what she needs--systems that remind her. She WILL do it if she gets the cues--she wants to do it--but a certain percentage of her brain is drifting in space/occupied with other concerns and issues at any one time, I'm pretty sure.

We are still establishing friends that she can contact in each class. This is a much bigger school and many of her friends are not in class with her, to her dismay. I don't think they are encouraged to email teachers. They use Edmodo, but if it is like elementary, teachers rarely respond there.

And I will say, I would like to let her suffer consequences to some degree. (There is another class where this is an issue for totally different reasons...) But what I hate about my district is that everything is an application-based magnet. DD's grades have mattered since 4th grade, and they matter now. Sucks to be her. And me.

Thanks, everyone--this is helping.

What I found is that disorganized teachers makes it harder for a student to be organized. My DS16 has always done well with classes where the homework expectations are clear and consistent. Often math class isn't a problem, there is always homework and it's either written on the board in the same place every day or last years teacher handed out a sheet with the homework for the next quarter and she stuck with it.

But for example DS had a huge problem with last years Chemistry teacher. She was known for being disorganized, lost kids work, took forever to turn things back. At back to school night she mentioned that there wasn't always homework and she would announce it in class. I get the impression she would just announce in the middle of class "Finish this for homework and turn it in Tuesday". We had to have DS do a homework log where the teacher signed a sheet once a week and she wrote down what homework was due and what was missing. This helped a lot because it made HER accountable as well as my son.

My best guess is my son has a hard time when homework is given orally in the "this is due Friday but I forgot to put in on the whiteboard" method.

Will you tell us what medication that is - Ritalin, SSRIs, or what? I'm still on the no meds! Bandwagon, but who knows...wth middle school looming for next year...I might eat my words.
I will have to search for my Smart but Scattered copy again. Sigh. I hate the way these behavioral approaches colour the whole relationship with my kids - even if the do work, mostly. And hate the way my kids immediately start turning the tables on us.

Edited to say I found the thread where you explain about his SSRIs treatment.

Does she have a binder for every class? I've seen some kids have one big binder for all HW, forms, looseleaf paper, etc plus notebooks for each class. Maybe that way she could just put forms in there and you could check it together, instead of having to check for each class. Also with the binders -- if checklists work well for her, you could just print a list to go in the clear thing on the front: eg, Did you turn in everything you came with? Is there anything on your desk you haven't turned in or put away? etc. Most teachers are okay with it if kids ask at the end of class to clarify -- maybe talk to the teacher so s/he understands why your kid always does -- but it couldn't hurt to say "Wait, so we just need to do this worksheet for Friday?"

It is wonderful that your DD has a strong motivation to succeed and already uses checklists. IME you can exploit the combination to help her navigate this disorganized teachers classroom by putting a checklist in the front of her notebook/binder for that class with an expanding file (ours were made by "case it") with labeled sections for stuff to turn in, stuff required to be displayed (syllabus and class rules etc), stuff to take home, stuff to work on, etc for each class. These expanding files had 3 holes and would fit inside a notebook. If you put the checklist inside a sheet protector (or laminate it) she can see it and even mark on it and then you erase it with her that evening. Her checklist might include: turn in assignment, record board notes, record homework, pick up handouts…
The hope is that she'll form good habits and eventually (high school) not need the checklist, but it really could be used forever.

These expanding files worked really well until DD stopped using them because most of the work was online. Problem was not ALL the work was online.

Our DD never really mastered the planner in high school, but is giving it another try in college. (bought one of her own free will with kittens on it LOL)

I mentioned this on a different thread, asking for input: I was wondering if having a wristwatch with an alarm would help DS, if it cued him (maybe five minutes or so?) before the end of class to refer to a checklist.

DS initially refused the idea, but now thinks it would be helpful. There are watches that vibrate. We'll try this and see if it works as a cue.

I don't think he needs this in the more structured classes, but in the more free-form ones, perhaps it would help. Maybe that would be worth a try for your DD, since it sounds like she is on board but just struggling to remember how the class functions.

So yesterday, with your good suggestions, we put a clear page protector in her folder for this class with TO TURN IN in huge letters on it. I will still need to work with her on making sure the stuff goes IN there, and it won't help with the end-of-class assignment, but I feel like it's a start. I think the other thing we should do is make a to-do list/reminder list or some visible system with a way to write down HW for the class. DD suggested a dry-erase system of some kind. I am proud of her. She's trying!

Because...what I'm hearing is that this class is super low on cues and systems. The teacher does NOT ask for work to be handed in, there are no desks, the seating arrangement is chaotic (and it's easy for her to be missed) and, get this, they are not supposed to take out their planners during the class! So she is orally given assignments and expected to either remember them or write them down later or in, I guess, some other location (her folder?) This is a recipe for disaster. She needs a way to note it.

Re the watch--I actually really like this for DD, but she is very fashion-oriented and also extremely worried and embarrassed about the fact that she is in treatment for a mental health issue already. I don't think she would ever go for it, for fear of looking different, being asked what it is, etc. I think I AM about to bend and get her a smartphone, which is going to be tricky, but she has independence WRT going to/from school now and it's kind of a safety matter. I know she can't use it during school, but reminder apps etc are legion these days and I think I will look at those for nonschool structuring and reminders.

brilliantcp, can you show me what you mean by expanding file? I think I have a different definition of that term, based on how you are using it, but I'd like to know what you are speaking about in case it might work for us.

WT*?

I seriously think making contact with teacher ASAP is in your DD's best interest. I understand you have no formal ADHD dx but it's common knowledge any child with attention issues needs more than auditory reminders about these things.

Beyond that, it's just poor practice--no planners OR assignments written on board? Not that I'd mention *that* to the teacher, probably better to frame it as DD's needs. I don't know what identified mental health issue you're referencing, but you could very appropriately bring up this situation with the teacher (e.g. DD has anxiety, this is causing her distress).

We also implemented the smartphone this year (even though I was philosophically opposed), but in my DC's school, the students are allowed to look at it--just not during class time. This has been helpful for texting reminders to both DC and my (anxious) DD11 uses it to get moral support throughout the day.

I hear you on the watch--DD wouldn't like that, either, although she does wear a FitBit and you can set vibrating alarms on that, as well. She doesn't need that (of course--because life works that way here), but the FitBit is trendy and she likes it. I wouldn't consider a FitBit for forgetful-loses-everything DS, though.

DS uses a Trapper Keeper with an accordion file and that has helped immensely with not losing papers. Still--doesn't address the turn the work in piece.

(As an aside: I don't know why some teachers are so opposed to asking the class for their work, as part of the routine. DS' HS teachers do this, but not his MS teachers. Go figure. Psychologist mentioned yesterday that the gifted teachers probably just expect that the students' EF matches their GAI--a blistering miscalculation in our case).

I woud bet money there are many students who are flailing about in the class you mention. That is just not a good way to support the students' learning and developing organizational skills.

There may be assignments on the board, but she also gives them orally. I couldn't believe it either, about the planner! But they are separated from their "stuff" and only have their one folder at their seats during class. This teacher is very experienced, btw. I don't know what to think, really. It's always possible that I am missing pieces of the story.

The Fitbit is kind of a cool idea.

BTW, DD is also in a FT gifted/acclerated program. It has been our experience (she was in one for elementray as well) that these programs routinely assume that kids are high in EF as well as IQ. Why would one assume this??

Ignorance? My two youngest had a teacher with this attitude. In a conference one day, she told me bluntly that DD should have the executive function of a child two years older than she was if she was in a class with kids who were up to two years older.

I tried to explain that EF doesn't develop at the same time as cognitive ability in many children, and after I was done with what I was saying, she answered, "I still don't believe it. She should just be able to it."

I suspect that some teachers have an idea about what "giftedness" looks like, and the picture is of a compliant child who always hands homework in on time, always gets As, and never causes trouble or inconvenience. This woman certainly had that idea.

Most of my kids' teachers haven't had this attitude, but in the ones who did, it was entrenched.

ETA: can your daughter put a sticky Post-it on whatever she has at her desk and not the assignment down on that?

Here is a link to the "case it" expandable file.

http://www.amazon.com/Case--Locker-...ords=Case+It+ACC-21+5-TAB+Expanding+File

Note that this is a component of a larger system that I have not used (but looks like a backpack alternative). We just used these expandable files and put them in DD's back pack.

The video on the link shows the whole system.

Thanks! That is not something I was familiar with.