Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional OK, another meeting and more trouble

Me again with more confusion and problems with the school district. I received a reevaluation report from the district a few weeks ago which included lots of negative crap about how awful my son has been over the last 2 years of IU services and results for all of his evaluations/cognitive testing.

Since I covered the cognitive testing in an earlier thread I'm not going to go over that again. Today we had the meeting to discuss all of this and plan for our IEP meeting. I had my sons mobile therapist and behavioral specialist through wrap around there with me. They are very helpful with knowing what to ask and helping me be more bitc... er, assertive.

First off the invitation letter I received had stated there would be a "teacher of the gifted" there today. He or she was notably absent. And I had been all excited that the giftedness was finally being recognized and addressed. The behaviorist who wrote about my son during his testing was there though, I do not like her and she has been consistently unfriendly and negative.

First order of business for me was that I was concerned that the FBA being referenced throughout the document is over a year old and done when my son was 3 (he is now 5). I feel that it is much too out of date. The behaviorist said she did a new FBA and it's in the document. I explained that I can't believe I missed an FBA as carefully as I have read this thing over (multiple times). She told me the new FBA was conducted by her during the cognitive testing. I said that was just a paragraph describing his behaviors in one setting and was hardly something I would consider to be indicative of his behavior in a natural environment or to qualify as an FBA. I asked why she hadn't instead chosen to see my son in his IU play group he attends weekly. She responded that district FBA's aren't the same as IU FBA's and that a paragraph based on one viewing is appropriate for their purposes. It did not contain any data, just a running description of what she saw during the IQ test.

We went through the document, starting with why my son won't get OT (it will be integrated and the school has a sensory room he can go to if he gets upset). He has no fine motor delay by their testing. I brought up the fact that he was tested at a local OT provider and tested from a high of age 7.5 on fine motor integration to a low of below age 2 on upper limb coordination on the BOT-2. I mentioned that clearly there is a significant problem with fine motor, just not the area they tested. They went with the we are only concerned about school performance line. I mentioned that it is an area very important for his participation in phys. ed. and that my son isn't able to open doorknobs or the car door due to this particular problem. They told me that a lot of 5 year olds can't open car doors? They also said I must be confused, that I am talking about gross motor. There was no OT at the meeting, but I am pretty sure it is fine motor because it was part of an OT evaluation of fine motor.

This does not even take into account sensory difficulties, which of course are much harder to prove with numbers. All of the IU OT's so far (2) have attributed his sensory behaviors to attention seeking thus far. We do not see any attention seeking behaviors at home, but we see tons of sensory stuff. The report itself mentions heavy crayon pressure, distracted by visual stimuli, does not like to be touched, does not realize when his face is dirty, and chews on non-food items. That was all from teacher reports. The sensory processing measure I filled out shows differences from age level peers in the areas of social participation, hearing, touch, balance and motion, and planning and ideas. Later the document mentions that he responds negatively to loud noises and gets distressed in a crowded room and that he is fearful of excessive movement such as swings and slides and does not like tilting his head backward.

It says: In summery DS presents with age appropriate fine motor and visual motor skills needed for tasks required in school. He could benefit from an OT consultation to the educational team. He does not qualify for continuing OT services.

When we got to the cognitive testing portion of the report the lady going over it all looked and me and asked who had requested this testing. I told her I had. She said "There is a reason we don't do cognitive testing on children at this age, it doesn't yield useful results, as we are seeing here." I responded that I felt that the result was quite useful as they could no longer claim my son isn't gifted. She didn't seem impressed with my argument. She pretty much glossed over the whole cognitive section and said his IQ was 12 points lower than his WPSSI GAI as she said the WPSSI wasn't completed anyway and they don't use the WPSSI at his age, so she used the KBIT 2 score instead (which he was even less interested in completing than the WPSSI as he was playing with the piles of interesting junk on the lady's desk).

Looking over my sons subtest scores she went through them and said he did well with a 19 on block design and got a 17 out of 21 on information, but that the rest of his scores were only average with "only an 11 on picture memory". Does information go up to 21? I just figured they all went to 19? Our mobile therapist shot her quite a look when she put only in front of 11. I mean, its actually slightly above average? If it involves memory I can't see how he didn't do better. I do know that for speech he had some sentence memory test (recalling sentences) and got a super high score. And he remembers new words and integrates them in his own speech after just one introduction. Of course, I don't know that the picture memory test actually tests memory... but it sure sounds like it might! The report makes it very clear he was not trying at all when he did the 3 "average" sections. Clearly he might potentially have done better if he had tried. Or he might not have, either way I hardly think the test was useless.

They also mentioned that he doesn't know all of his letters because he "got some wrong" on some test. Yeah, he has known his letters since 18 months, upper and lower. If he got some wrong, it certainly wasn't because he doesn't know them. When they said he showed some phoneme awareness our MT snorted and said "He can read." I was thankful for that They said that he didn't show that he could read for the test. I said that my son reads when and what he wants to and I'm sorry he didn't want to read just then. They asked me to come in sometime with a book and have him read for them. I let them know that it wasn't that important to me and that his IU coordinator was over once and heard him read, they could ask her. They apparently don't trust myself or our wraparound staff?

Later in the document they recommend against speech, but mention he has pragmatic deficits and awful scores on pragmatics and social skills. They intend to address these in the classroom. In fact, they said it's a "pragmatics based classroom."

I learned that the class will be a level 1 autistic support classroom at a nearby school in the district. After the meeting our MT and BSC mentioned that they both work in that classroom and unless there are big changes in next years kids they don't see it being a good fit. Apparently most of the students have mild to moderate cognitive deficits and are much more "autistic" than my son. Plus they report that the program isn't great. No ABA, no visual schedules. In fact they both said they didn't even know it was classified as autism support because it's a very unstructured program with none of the usual supports expected. They also know I'm a clean freak and that my son has many allergies (oddly listed as sensitivities by the district) and let me know if is a very old and very dirty building.

Overall I'm left confused and upset after the meeting. We scheduled an IEP meeting 2 weeks hence. I felt like they were very negative towards me, dismissive of my sons cognitive scores, and very negative about his behaviors. There were 2 ladies there who seemed very nice. The lady running the meeting and the behaviorist were the ones we heard the most from and they were far from nice. I'm getting really tired of all of the meetings and work on my end and the total lack of results the past 2 years. The one lady there apologized on behalf of the IU that they hadn't been able to meet my sons needs in the past due to budget issues (no preschool classroom placement available for him).

My first question is, should I be moving to a better district ASAP or should I fool around with asking for an out of district placement? Should I take what they are offering and see how it works? Wait for it to fail and then request an out of district placement? There is a district about 20 minutes away that is considered one of the best in the area for autism. I'm not sure if that applies to the whole spectrum though, I know that they are great for low functioning. It's a very pricey area to live in, but a very rich district. We are in a very poor area right now. The room we had our meeting in today was so hot, no AC in the school and they can't open any windows due to the prison bars I can't imagine what an older and more run down building would look like.

My other option is to stay where we are and just homeschool. I have to say homeschooling is just OK for us at this point. I get easily frustrated on bad days and I'd really love to get back to work again. I have been the only one able to take care of my son/deal with him for over 5 years now. I've honestly had about enough. Not even one night away from him ever. We are very much suffering from too much time together! I will homeschool though if I need to, but I'd love to get him in a great program that he loves outside of the home. I've had about enough of it being all me :\

Well, at any rate, I'd really appreciate any advice. Everyone here is always so helpful. I hope to someday be able to use this board for the happier aspects of having a 2E child, but for now I feel like a big complainer.

And on a happy note, today my son picked some flowering weeds and brought them to me. He whispered in my ear "Here mommy, an early mother's day present, because I know you like flowers and I know it's nice to give you things you like and I love you." One of them was one of my pansies, but I didn't even complain

Unless you have a good reason to believe that an out of district transfer would be approved, I would throw in the towel and get out now. Is he starting kindergarten in the fall? I would start fresh in a good district. That place sounds like a nightmare. You need to really do your research though, and make sure the new school would be a good fit, because it would be horrible to move and it's just as bad or worse. Maybe rent for a while?

We have open enrollment here, which means we can transfer into a different school or a different district if there is space. Thank god, because our district is horrible in terms of dealing with 2e kids, as well as our neighborhood school. If we get to the point where we have to move, I would rather move than deal with a district that is a nightmare and gives us continual stress. It's not worth it. Think of it this way--if you get in a good school and can trust them to teach your child and listen to your concerns, then you will have more time to work or do whatever you want to do, rather than constantly needing to advocate or teaching him yourself. Then the added cost of living there would be more affordable. Just my 2 cents based on the info provided--obviously there a lot of factors and pros and cons that only you can weigh.

Would it be possible to get an advocate? I would want one at this point.

A couple of specific points:

OT: the upper body deficits do fall within the purview of OT, which is why your outside OT noted them. However, the kind of services you would want for them may, in some districts, end up being provided by PT or APE, especially if you are thinking about their impact on gym class. If you end up pursuing that, bring up PT and APE.

Cognitive: Oy. Puzzling interpretation of testing results! I will say that it is possible the report stated that he got 17 out of 21 items administered correct on Information, rather than that being the maximum scaled score. I haven't given the WPPSI in a long time, so I can't remember what the start point for older kids is (hence how many possible items).

It is possible that picture memory could be quite different from recalling sentences, as it is visual memory span, not language/auditory memory.

GT staff: if there was someone who was on the team meeting notice who was not present at the meeting, you had the right to stop the meeting and have it re-scheduled due to failure of the district to have all required team members present. If the role is on the invitation/attendance sheet, then there should have been an excusal form signed by you prior to proceeding with the meeting. Failure to obtain this is a due process violation by the district.

Re changing districts vs out of district placement -

We started K in an interdistrict magnet in a neighboring large city. They refused to do anything for DD despite our outside OT eval showing significant fine motor deficits. Wouldn't evaluate for in school services saying "she'd never qualify - she's too smart." K teacher actively punished DD for her disabilities saying "if she doesn't have an IEP or 504 and doesn't complete the writing assignment she doesn't go to recess. Period." Nevermind that she was in OT learning how to hold a pencil and was not physically able to complete the writing assignment. If we were residents of that district there would have been NOTHING we could do to get appropriate services for DD. Even going to due process would not have netted much benefit. We would have had to move, send her to private or continue as best we could with outside resources.

Fortunately our home district intervened with testing. We happen to live in a district with excellent spec Ed services so transferred to our neighborhood public for 1st grade. It's a large district with a lot of resources. And they *never* go to due process. So if you do your homework, line your ducks in a row and refuse to blink your child gets what they need. It is easier if you have some kind of a round peg to fit into a protocol of some type, harder if your kid is outside the box like mine. We had an absolutely awful principal who viewed the kids as little data points and whose MO was to make life miserable for any little "outlier" until they were removed from her school. Selling your house, homeschooling, sending to private - all were fine because your kid was no longer her problem. We stared her down, reported her behavior to the department of education and held the district responsible and finally got out of district placement at their expense. (And the principal was simultaneously removed for a position at central office analyzing data for the district...)

When things were at their worst we considered changing districts. Rather than buying and selling we were going to rent out our house and rent in a better district. We were advised not to because in our case we were so close to winning out of district placement. However the lesson I learned is to look closely at the history of any potential district before you transfer. Some districts will fight at any cost to prevent OOD because they don't want to establish a precedent for others to follow. They use intimidation and you may have to be prepared to spend $30k-$50k in the process. Most families will choose to move, homeschool or pay for private instead.

An experienced advocate intimately familiar with your local options is probably your best bet.

Thanks everyone. Yes, he is starting K in the fall.

I did look into advocates at one point, but oddly they all either didn't work in our particular area or weren't the right kind of advocate. Each one I called (off of a list from the local children's hospital where we originally got an ASD diagnosis) gave me a number for the right person to call. Each of those people said no, they weren't right and either gave or promised additional numbers. At some point I gave up.

Maybe because they were all non-profits? I was going for free or low cost help, at the time we were also paying for a very expensive private preschool and didn't have a lot of extra money.

I guess we could afford to pay more now that we are homeschooling. Although based on the advice here and from a teacher friend of ours, I think we are going to have to move regardless. This is really not a good area to raise a family and all of my sons friends are from near the area we would like to move to.

I won't even take him to the local playground as it's so littered with cigarettes and smoking kids and parents it's hard to breathe. And the kids aren't always smoking cigarettes. It's also on school property. One of the few times I took him he picked up something and it turned out to be a piece of a smashed bear bottle someone stuck under the slide. Since he started reading we haven't been back, the graffiti says some truly nasty things. So yeah, not a nice neighborhood at all and I have wanted to move since before we actually moved here temporarily 6 years ago.

I'm looking at houses online right now. I guess I can contact districts ahead of time and talk to them about the classrooms and services they offer for kids like mine? I doubt they get a lot of kids like him, I think he's more of a star shaped peg

At the meeting yesterday the lady running it said, "We aren't going to make a classroom just for your son, if you don't like the autism support classroom we can offer emotional support instead." They wouldn't even consider putting him in the regular classroom. Not that I wanted him at their horrible school anyway, but I felt that they just didn't want to deal with him.

I know my son should be able to do a regular classroom with supports and that it should at the very least be the goal for him. I think he might really enjoy something like being able to go to math with the 3rd graders sometimes. Maybe if he's interested in the material and in with older kids he would show better behavior anyway?

AEH: We used to get PT through the school, but he tested out last year. We then did private for a while, but my son was so frustrated with how difficult it was for him we ended up quitting to restore family sanity. What is APE?

Regarding the discussion of the cognitive testing, reading the actual report from the tester it states this: On the information subtest DS answered all but 4 questions correctly. He earned a scaled score of 17, which is in the very superior range.

I'm guessing the lady just added 17 and 4 and said he got 17 out of 21. Clearly she knows nothing about IQ tests? I found a French wiki page that says that on some version of the WPPSI there are 34 items on the information subtest, but it doesn't specify the version. I have found it to be very difficult to find info about the test, guess it's a trade secret

As far as picture memory goes, I can tell you when my son was very little he had a bunch of foam picture tiles he played with in the tub. There were at least 20 of them. If one was missing he knew right away, where is my truck tile or where is my book tile? He knew all of his states by shape alone (and upside down and at any orientation) at 24 months and could memorize a puzzle after doing it just once. He remembers everything we tell him and always has. He has every level of pudding monsters memorized at this point, once he solves it he just knows it upon sight and can tell you "Oh, on this one you just go right, left, up, down, up again, and then left, that's for 3 stars, do you want to get 3 stars or 2 stars or 1 star or 0 stars? I already have the crown for this level so you can just get 3 stars if you want to." He was really into the game last year and rarely plays it anymore, but he stills has all of the levels memorized.

I've always considered memory to be a big strong point for him. On the other hand I don't think he's great at picking things out, like he's not good at find the differences puzzles or finding his socks laying on his bed. I consider that to be less about intelligence and more about possible sensory issues. And since he didn't really cooperate at all on the subtest it might not have been an accurate score anyway.

I'm certainly not sitting here crying that some of his scores are only in the average range. I tend to think they are an underestimate and even if they aren't I know my son is unusually smart and always has been. I can easily see his advanced academics and no one can deny his ability to divide or read.

Regarding the gifted teacher on the invitation, I guess we have a due process violation as I didn't sign anything excusing the teacher of the gifted. Our mobile therapist mentioned that maybe the kindergarten teacher who was there was also a teacher of the gifted, but certainly no one said that they were during introductions or during the meeting. I guess it could potentially have been a certification of any of the people there?

No one called out the lady who led everything on her odd interpretations of my sons cognitive testing. I'd hate to hear how she would present the results of cognitive testing to the parents of a child with low intellectual functioning.

I'm basically going to rush to sell my home and find a new one in the best district we can afford. We are probably looking at half a mil for a house or 350 for a small townhome in the area. Taxes are high. We will take a loss on our home. But I guess you do what you have to do for your kids. I'm going to do what I can to make sure that we will get what we want in the better district. I have 2 other good districts I'm also looking at, slightly cheaper areas to live in, but further from our friends and outside the range of our current wraparound services. We all love our wraparound staff and want to keep them if we can.

My son has a therapist who knows a lot about advocacy. I scheduled an appointment with her for next week (we don't go often as our insurance doesn't cover her) and I will ask if she can give me a list of good advocates she personally knows of. You are all correct, if I'm going to do this, I need to do it right!

Panzer, I don't have time to post a detailed reply, but I'm sorry you had such a frustrating and disappointing meeting with the school. One thing I'm curious about - you mentioned in another thread earlier this spring a few things that might be related to vision - have you had his vision checked out? Has he seen a DO? I can't help but wonder if the picture memory score *might* be related to vision - a few of the other things you mentioned in this post as sensory issues could potentially be related to vision.

I hope you're able to move - it sounds like a move would be a good thing regardless of the school situation.

I would also keep searching for an advocate - I can't imagine having to move forward in your position without having some kind of *local* advice, as well as a strong unbiased knowledgable person that you can bring with you to these meetings. An advocate would have brought up the absence of the gifted person specified as attending immediately, and the meeting would have been called off.
I know this may sound counter-intuitive, but one place you might find the name of an advocate's group by looking at SPED resources on a neighboring school district's website (I'm guessing your school district isn't up to speed enough to include this info).

Hang in there!

polarbear

Just an idea, but you can also rent your house out while renting in another district to test fit and minimize downside risk. You need not sell at a loss to secure a place at a school of unknown value. I wouldn't want to make more variables dependent on the school outcome than absolutely necessary.

APE is adaptive physical education. It's combination modified gym and physical therapy, often led by a PT, but potentially with good results from a gym teacher with additional training and/or PT consult.

There are 25 verbal items on the information subtest, plus 4 picture items which are automatically credited if the basal for the verbal items is made. Presumably, he received a raw score of 25. Yes, clearly the person presenting the evaluation findings was not properly trained in test interpretation.

pb's advice is a good thought. There may also be info on advocacy groups on the state DOE website's SPED page.