Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Challenged - when does it happen?

Our DD10 was accelerated from 4th to 5th about 2 months ago. As we are facing middle school next Fall, I will be asking lots of questions about that over the next few weeks. But, I wonder, will she find challenging work in MS? She will be in some kind of advanced LA next year. and she and DD11 (also in 5th) will be in compacted math (it's 6th, 7th, and half of 8th in one year). Have I unrealistically built up middle school in my mind as the place where some challenge might finally happen? Ours is a magnet middle school with almost 100 electives so I have had this wonderful dream that finally DD would find her "place" and take enjoyable, mind stretching classes. DD asked yesterday "Is AIG suppose to be easy?" She was baffled by the fact that that those classes are soooo not. Sigh.
I guess tagged to this question is - I have no idea what DD is capable of. When does that question get answered? Where and when do those brain cells get "stretched"? Love to hear others' experiences with their kids.

Maybe summer courses at Johns Hopkins CTY or other summer programs for gifted children would be a good challenge.

I think the answer to when does school become challenging is soooo so very dependent on school culture and ultimately individual teachers. My kids have been challenged and then-again not challenged at the *same* school but with different teachers.

We've also had our kids in a school that was very proud of it's elective and choice classes, and honestly, the classes weren't all that great - my kids enjoyed core classes that were well taught much better than electives that were supposed to stretch their minds because they offered "interesting" subjects that were not normally a part of the curriculum - the key with the electives was almost always the relative enthusiasm of the teacher. Hopefully that won't be an issue with your dd's school!

I tried to never build up my children's expectations about school too much - we have switched schools to have better academics and a higher level of challenge, but we kept the explanation at that. We didn't tell them that things were guaranteed to be a whole lot better, just that we were working (always) in that direction.

And... fwiw... one thing that my children did really notice and appreciate was that the overall classroom atmosphere was less boring for them when they able to be in classes that were supposed to be gifted and/or challenging - even if the classes were still not challenging (or even outright boring) - the lack of the distractions of slow and easy questions from other students made a huge impact on how much they enjoyed class.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Summer camps have been a great thing that our kids really have enjoyed. I'm beyond bummed that our in-state summer university program for middle and high school students has had severe cut-backs in funding this year. My ds has enjoyed CTY summer camp (intensive studies). Was it challenging? Maybe not at a high level, but it was challenging enough that he learned quite a bit and also had an engaged instructor.

OTOH, my ds is really into science. My dd wants to be a writer and she is really good at it, but it's much more difficult to find good summer camps for her (she's not ready to travel out of state yet, and the camps for middle school and up kids in our area are heavily weighted to STEM).

polarbear

Ita with Polarbear- it's impossible to answer that question from outside the situation. I will say that we were assured every step of the way that the next step would be better, only to find that hasn't held true for our kids.

Regarding electives, they may not be challenging (ours are generally not) but for our kids, the electives have been a welcome distraction, at least, and at their best, novel experiences they really enjoyed. For us, the more academic electives tended to disappoint (computer programming was ok, but DD often finished early and spent class time on homework for other classes, for example) but the more creative electives were worthwhile- art, photography, music, etc

Regarding regular classes, I second what polarbear said, in that they might not be challenging, but as the classes here gradually become more "tracked" the overall experience is better. Perhaps not saying much, I know. Our DD has managed ok, probably because she is quite good at self-challenge, despite what the class expectations are.

We have not tried CTY, primarily because many of the kids in DDs honors and accelerated classes attend, and based on her experiences in these classes, we weren't sure that it would be a good fit, though others on this board have described positive experiences.

College.

Brace yourself, by the way. It will NOT be pretty.

As others have recently posted on another thread, the challenge may come in terms of executive function skills (not necessarily appropriate curriculum and pacing in her zone of proximal development). "Rigor" may also consist of a heavy workload... primarily busy work... not necessarily new material.

When she is doing her own thing, exploring an area of interest.

You know, my daughter had a very good experience in middle school. She was in honors classes and had some really excellent teachers. She had to put forth some effort in math and failed her very first social studies test (a new experience for her!). She absolutely loved her English teacher. She could probably have done a second skip but she has been happy, and has experienced some challenge, so...I hope that in middle school things improve for your girls. I would strongly agree that a lot comes down to the teacher.

Re: CTY my PG SIL loved it so much as a kid that she goes back now and teaches every summer.

I think my dd also does get stretched with orchestra (we have a wonderful music program in middle school and even better in high school) so that helps too. We have focused our summer budget on orchestra camps and now this summer on a Shakespeare summer intensive that I have no doubt will stretch her in many ways.

That is some very good advise and I wish that I had know this when I first changed schools for my DS. I built my child's expectations about the new school a lot because I thought that it might take away the anxiety he had about leaving his old friends and entering a new school. This has proved to be wrong - he was nervous at first that he might not be able to keep up in this new and "fabulous" school with advanced academics - and then, in a few weeks, asked me why everything was so easy. Since then, I just tell him that we are choosing the "better" of all the options available to us and that he needs to stretch himself to his maximum limits after school and we will facilitate and help him in that (he does not break a sweat at school even when he has been accelerated 2 years in the core subjects and the teacher has run out of material for him).

"Competition Math", Math Circles, Music Theory classes, Chess school, robotics and learning 3 languages has kept my son's brains busy. I do not think that middle school will be superior in any way - but, I believe that a great High School can challenge HG+ kids sufficiently.

In our case, MS was a little bit of a challenge, but that was largely due to how little time DD(now)14 spent there. For us, MS is grades 6, 7, and 8. Our DD skipped from 5th to 7th, and between adjusting to a little more rigor, a new daily schedule, being in a school over 10 times larger than her elementary, and being bumped into accelerated math, she was somewhat challenged. The next year she started her days at the HS, and took three classes for HS credit. Those three classes were the bulk of her challenge. Your DDs MS sounds like it might be more rigorous than my DDs, so you may not need go our route of doing 3 years of MS in 1.5 years of attending MS classes.

HS has been hit or miss on challenges. Some classes she gets a little bit of a challenge, other classes are complete cake walks. The electives do will give your DD more opportunity to take classes in her interests.

Our DD did do a CTY Intensive Studies Neuroscience class last summer and had an absolute blast - both socially and academically. She's going back again this year.

Best of luck,
--S.F.

in my little NZ city middle school is the first time there is any gifted programming but it is for the top 15℅ based on one test so really it is a high achiever class. up until then he gets to test into a couple of pull out classes which he is doing now. As far as I know a number of the identified gifted kids have missed places through already being disengaged. I think I might have enjoyed high school academics if I had got them several years earlier and I don't think it would have been any worse socially.

The skip is challenging for as long as it takes to catch up and address any gaps - weeks at most. The rate of learning is such that a mere skip only temporarily halts them. I am using AoPS and next year will be using an online LA class as I am very unwilling to skip my DD again.

If you go the normal route, then sometime in college.

I don't want to be unnecessarily discouraging so I'll just say middle school curriculum is definitely information-light. The teacher makes a big difference, especially if they're capable of adding extras info or a answering questions, or if they make the lessons themselves.
However, based on my limited experience it seems like HS is at least a refreshing break in the monotony,if not challenging. Common core is less prevalent, there's a faster pace in the honors courses (of at least faster-feeling, no promises), and there's less handholding - assignments are due when they're due,no question, and your goodness sake's you can't retake a math test six times even if - gasp! - you might get a B or feel bad about yourself. Biggest pet peeve, BTW.
Honestly, I find myself asking these same questions with HS coming up. When do I settle for challenging enough? When is it just too late, wait for college? Does our school even have anything challenging to offer? Is it alright if the only challenging class is an elective and maybe a class with a good teacher? I can't say. But I can hope for the best.
Middle school might not be challenging, but it's fun. Especially those electives, at least if they're taught well. (I guess I can't assume that, can I? Nothing ever is...)
Good luck!

Well, it depends on your DD's cognitive profile, personality traits and other general essential skills (writing, executive functional, social, emotional) as well as each individual teacher and each educational institution (including interacting peer groups). It is possible for the answer to be never, if for example, she attends second rate educational institutions through college and consistently miss any of their available great teachers and their strongest peer group. It is also possible for the answer to be 6th grade, if for example, she is at an elite school with a significant population of extreme talents in her specific classes. For example, I know a public middle school(not our school) that has many many students who qualify for AIME (by top scores on AMC10/AMC12) as well as some who qualify for USAMO/USAJMO (by top scores on AIME).

Whether your DD finds challenge within her particular middle school will depend on her personality as well. Middle schools around here tend to be product oriented (writing as well as multi-media)so it is up to the student how deeply/broadly they want to research and what level of work they want to produce.

If you want to find out what your DD is capable of, then consider signing her up for the SAT, particularly to see where she is and if she is anywhere near the ceiling on the verbal. For math, the ceiling is not particularly high as compare to many competition math problems. You can start her on the AMC8 (easiest of the AMCs) to see how well she solves non-routine math problems. Quite a few 5th graders (and even some 4th graders) participate so it should be a decent range of problems for her to try in 6th grade. The next AMC8 is in November but there are a ton of past ones that she can try at home before the real competition. If she gets a top score on the AMC8, then move her up to the AMC10 as that has a much higher ceiling.

Much challenge may be found in school extra-curriculars such as Quiz Bowl, Mathcounts, Chess Club, Honor Band/Orchestra.

Maybe in math--but in LA and social studies you can always go deeper. With the right teachers it has worked well for my dd (with DYS scores).

I have now heard positives from several of you all about CTY so will go back and look at their courses. I think I remember signing up? sending in something? to CTY last year. I will say that I am glad both DDs are in band (fun and social). They will take music classes again this summer.

Yes, executive function is the name of the game here. DD is ADHD inattentive type so we will be all over that issue. Luckily I have seen her improve 1000% concerning homework. She just gets right to it, no fuss, no bother! Amazing! Even the lunchbox has been coming home!!
Social/emotional? She seems to be doing better, and appears to have more friends now. We will be watching closely next year. She was one of the younger 4th graders so now is a very young 5th grader. Put her in the middle of a bunch of kids going through puberty? Big concern of mine. Question -How does one deal with a child who is younger than average who sees all the "big" kids get cell phones, electronics etc . Do you go by age or grade level? Children want to fit in.

Well I have to claim ignorance of AIME so I am off to research that! And when you mention the SAT that feels so foreign to me as my DH and I took it late high school as is typical. DD was set to take the Explore test, but we had a death in the family that same weekend.

Another point - I have heard that middle school here is also project oriented - THAT - will be fun for DD. She writes all the live long day and loves Power Point, Haiku Deck...

One last thing. I am fretting about the increase of work load and the ugly monster "perfectionism". DD went berserk a few weeks ago when she attempted to do an online game for math which was part of the week's homework. It was timed so she just couldn't do it (anxiety). She was sobbing and insisting she take it again and again until she got it right. I had to physically take the computer away and talk softly that it was time to "let it go." Sometimes she insists that certain homework is due RIGHT NOW, and only because DD11 is in the same grade do I know that that is not the case. I am going to be furiously waving the 504 at all the middle school teachers. They had better follow it!!

My son and I were talking yesterday morning and as a wise ten year old 5th grader he came to the conclusion that he could have just attended the even years of elementary school. K,2,4 and skipped PreK,1,3,5. He did skip 3. He was musing on if the other even grades should have been skips or just stayed home that year. I pointed out he had the Best Second Grade teacher of all times and he wouldn't have wanted to miss her and he agreed. He would magically have moved her to 4th (which she teaches now).

I think the even year plan is great. K,2,4 for elementary...6 and 8 for middle (and here most gifted 8 th graders are taking for credit a hs math class (either algebra or now geometry), a high school science, and sometime a high school business/computer introductory course. Or another STEM/engineering intro course (so they have the prerequisite for higher electives in high school that first year) so for the most part 8th grade is half 8th half 9th grade.

Then you have 9th and tenth grade and if lucky can take advantage of dual enrollment or eary college or APs or some combination.

In a fun coincidence, when I got home last night DD14 gave me a bit of into that explains why HS has been a little more challenging than MS - she can pack her year with more learning opportunities. Her school handed out transcripts and went over what all the data meant. DD14 informed me she has more credits right now (end of 2nd trimester of 10th grade) than the typical student will have at the end of their 11th grade year.

I'm starting to think she'll have more than twice as many credits than needed by the time she graduates...

--S.F.

Possibly go by family values and school policy. I've known children as young as kindergarten with a simple, inexpensive cell phone "for emergency use", such as "missed the bus". This is different than having a phone to display; Some schools disallow cell phones and clarifying language allows students to possess a cell phone but not to display it (cell phone must stay in locker or backpack and not be used during school hours).

Yes, they want to fit in no matter what. But, still-our house, our rules. I will not compromise what I feel is appropriate. Thankfully dd14 is incredibly secure and and sure of herself and wouldn't want to be friends with anyone who gave her a hard time about that stuff. She doesn't care about getting her license later than kids in her grade. I just think those are issues you would have to face whether they skipped a grade or not. I mean my 2nd grader just said, "you just don't understand me, I'm a girl who needs an iphone." sorry, kid. And at her school there are 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders who have them. Though I am skeptical when a kid tells me "all" the other kids have something or doing something. We talk about our family's values and wants and needs and marketing and relational aggression, and choosing friends etc. etc. Re: puberty--there is a very, very wide range of normal. So...again, I think you would have to deal with that grade skip or not.

I would advise against approaching teachers (or anyone) in this manner as it seems unnecessarily adversarial. Some may say it does not describe a team approach or healthy collaboration among adults role-modeling mutual respect but rather sounds a bit negative, offensive, insulting.

ITA. My kids are spread out from high school through upper elementary now, and I haven't ever really seen (in my kids' schools) the situation where suddenly you moved up one grade or one year and all of a sudden all of the kids had cell phones. Some had cell phones way back in 4th grade, some of my ds' friends in high school still don't have them. My ds has a cell phone because I need it to communicate with him because he's at a school across town and involved in after-school activities. We got him the phone when he went to out-of-state summer camp for the first time so he could call home (and so home could call him lol!). Most of his male friends have phones now too but rarely use them. His female friends live for texting. My dds don't have phones yet because they don't need them (7th and 5th grade) - some of their friends do, some don't. Most of their friends have some type of ability to text whether or not they have a phone, and my dds are allowed to text.

Our schools don't allow kids to use phones during the school day, and some of them have rules about phones on campus. When our children have asked about phones etc before we were ready for them to have them, we've simply let them know that it's not the right time in our family and that in our family we go by our family values (as established by the parental units lol!). This really hasn't been a huge issue because there really *are* other families out there that aren't sending their kids to school with electronics. In fact, I'd say that with one exception, most of the families we know locally don't make the step up to getting their children phones until their kids are involved in after-school activities requiring coordination of pick-up and drop-off times and rides etc. And that's something that may ultimately result in you wanting to get your dd a phone a year earlier than you'd planned - because you might end up at that crazy stage of needing to know where your dd is earlier than you would have if she hadn't been accelerated. But I wouldn't over-worry about the phone issue, instead just give it time and see what happens.

FWIW I've found that the most helpful thing for me as a parent re tech as my kids get older is to attend the "online guidelines for parents" meetings that our local police department holds for schools at least once every 2 years or so. The things to look out for really change dramatically from year to year, and those are things that your kids can be exposed to whether or not they own the technology because they will be around kids that do.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Oh yes, our schools have policies! That will guide us for sure.
It's interesting. DD11 really could care less about having a phone and texting. She is happy playing games on the IPod and going to birthday parties. She is comfortable with many kids and has a best best friend. DD10 has always had a harder time with friendship. This texting business has been her connection to people, particularly to those she left behind in 4th. She is also teaching herself coding/creating art on the computer/editing photography and is just fascinated with technology in general so the request for a phone is not all about peer pressure. She was so excited last night because DH talked to her about a phone perhaps for Christmas? Oh boy.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as the angry mom. I, for the most part, have had the best relationships with our teachers (except, the big bad recent 4th grade one!!). But even our sweet loving 5th grade math, science, and LA teachers aren't following the 504 so it's frustrating. They just forget until I give examples of what happens when we don't work with DD!! Actually DD's science teacher handed an important paper to me to day and said with a smile that she knew it would be safer with me than handing it over to DD to take home. Yep! She's learned.

Yes! It will be interesting to see how next year's math class plays out. As stated, the girls will take 2 1/2 years of math in one year. The last 2 years of middle school math will be high school level. So 3 years ahead DD10, 2 years DD11. But then what? Do the next math classes move quickly? And science is DD10's love (other than technology and writing and art ). That's been her highest level test scores. I really hope she can learn something new and exciting in science but am scaling back my hopes after hearing from most of you here!

Agreed. Not to veer off-topic, yet several safety-minded pointers may be worth mentioning immediately:
- Register child's cell phone with national Do Not Call registry.
- Turn off GPS on photos.
- Be aware that APPs may collect information; Restrict as necessary.
- Recording and/or taking photos may be illegal in some instances.
- Parents may wish to create a written agreement with their child stating rules for cell phone use.
- Parents may wish to check their child's cell phone on a regular basis.
Being aware of cell phone safety may help avoid other types of "challenge" which families do not want to experience.

The FBI offers online guidance for parents, warning about child predators.

What I did was give my child a phone at an when when I needed to be in touch with my child. I got my phones on the late side for this area, my DD in 8th grade & DS the summer before 9th grade. I know 2nd graders and younger who have phones and I would say a large percentage of kids in my area have phones by junior high.

I framed it along the lines of do you need a phone to communicate with mom or dad. Phones are expensive , require responsibility and not just toys. They need to be old enough they can take responsibility to not loose the phone, to have it on them when needed and keep it charged. I got My kids phones when it made MY LIFE better because the cell phone works as an electronic leash. My teen can text me, I'll be late home from school because of X. The football game is over now. Or I can text my child that I'm running 30 minutes late. The question then turns more general. Are the 'older' kids given more independence? Are they going to the mall or movies with friends and no adults? Do they walk/bike home from school.

A relative of mine did who didn't want to get their daughter a phone, but whos pre-teen was getting electronic envy looked for a used device that wasn't connected to cell service. This had the advantage it couldn't be use to connect to the internet everywhere, if wasn't a huge deal if it got lost or damaged, and it cost a lot less. I ended up sending her a used iTouch we had lying around.

Challenge may not happen until college, and yet for many students "early college" is a positive experience.

The Acceleration Institute offers a list of Early College Resources.

Personally, I think "challenge" is the wrong word. It's not what I want for anyone. Challenging means too hard. To me, getting through school as a giftie IS challenging! What I'm after is "excited by".
I don't particularly want either of my kids to be challenged - I want them to be excited and interested by what they're learning and to have a sense of achievement.
I guess I just don't feel doing the same boring stuff at a harder level is that fun I dunno what it is about the education system that it sucks all the joy out of learning. Just too prescriptive I guess.
DS was challenged by a couple of papers early on at university which was really just a sign he was doing the wrong papers. A bit of a switch in majors, and he's excited/interested/achieving instead - learning what he wants in the way that he wants - all A's, and honor's degree, and getting published and speaking engagements and looking at a Master's … Totally loving it and doing amazing work but not finding it "a challenge" .
Phone = age 11. Bam

Kudos to your son! He seems to have found his passion, and an area of study which is a good "fit" for him.

Regarding "challenge", the word has a positive connotation in gifted education, for example it is used by the National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC) which provides this context: emphasis added

Ideally, "challenge" means an opportunity for "stretching" and growth, learning new material rather than repeating what has already been learned and waiting for others to catch up. Appropriate challenge and support would provide an opportunity for being excited and interested by what they're learning and to have a sense of achievement... rather than "treading water" and experiencing underachievement.

Oh I know I know, I don't want them bored or coasting I just get the heebie jeebies from the word "challenged", just like some people don't like the word "gifted".
I think "challenged" to a layperson doesn't mean what it's meant to mean! We've had too many years of teachers giving MOTS in response to the request for a challenge: same old stuff, higher level.
Maybe "engaged" is more the word I'd use.
(Yes if you can tell, I'm a bit bored by school and considering homeschooling. Definitely coloring my view!)

Agreed. Words are important. "Gifted" invokes, for some, a negative sense akin to jealousy, and also myriad myths. In response, much time is spent attempting to define and describe what "gifted" is, and what it is not. Unfortunately, so far attempts to substitute other phrases have resulted in different meanings, and some may say serving other populations, while neglecting the "gifted".

Similarly, words such as "challenge" and "differentiation" benefit from discussion of what is meant by them in the context of educational offerings for our kids. For example, this is not my idea of a positive challenge, rather it is a requirement for a "gifted" child to do more work for the same grade.

A word I've found myself using is "inspire." DD is inspired when she reads some classic poets and it drives her to write at a higher level than when she sees the typical little poetic examples of first and second grade. In other subjects, she doesn't know what she doesn't know but she does frequently know what's being taught. Someone inspiring her by opening the door to the next level of understanding in science etc is all she really needs. She'll soak up the knowledge immediately then.

Of course I use this word as I bemoan the lack of her being inspired the majority of the time, in class.

When I make recommendations to educational teams, I usually invoke Vygotsky and learning theory, and call it placing students at the optimal instructional level, or in the ZPD. My hope is that this will make it more apparent that this kind of instructional planning is exactly the same as the placement decisions that are made on behalf of students who fall below +1.5 SD. So far, I have had fairly positive responses from other school staff.

Exactly! The zone of proximal development.

Whatever we call it, too many gifted kiddos may not be experiencing it in their classrooms, but only during after-schooling, camps, outside classes, homeschooling... or college.