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We have an ongoing issue with my younger ds and I'm not certain where to turn at this point. Perhaps someone else has had some experience in this area.
Some background - I am gifted as are both my ds's. There is a three year difference in their ages. My older ds was identified when 4-5 y.o. by our school system gifted coordinator, who is no longer there (which is a bummer, and another story in and of itself). DH and I decided NOT to have him grade accelerated because he was also talented in sports and small for his age. Gifted coordinator was willing to work with us to make sure that he was served and was willing to be very flexible - however, as it turns out, elementary school was not as flexible. He is now 13, and is taking Honors Algebra II at our HS, but cannot seem to get services for any other subjects. He and younger ds were tested by very well respected psychologist and given both WISC-IV and WJ-III in 2012 because I suspected that younger ds was also gifted but was not "achieving" the same way as his older brother. Both boys had GAIs of 135 on the WISC-IV - with younger ds scoring virtually identically to his older brother with the exception of working memory, where older scored 146 (very superior) and younger scored 126 (superior). Younger actually scored higher on processing speed than older and they were back and forth on the various subtests. Now, I completely understand that each child is an individual, and not expected to act the same. But with such similar scores on the WISC-IV, I think one would expect that there academic experiences would be similar.
However, this has not been the case. I had suspected for some time that there was something different with the way my younger ds learned, but not being an educator or a psychologist, it was only one of those mother feelings. I had thought perhaps he was ADD, however, again we asked the psychologist and she said there was no indication this was the case. Interestingly, both boys took the OLSAT when they were in 2nd grade. Older ds's scores were as I expected - he scored in the 99.9 percentile and had an SAI of 141. Younger ds's scores were difficult to explain given his WISC-IV scores - 86.7 percentile with an SAI of 117. If he had not already been tested as gifted by an outside psychologist, he would not have qualified for gifted services, such as they are in our school district - which are supposed to be very good, but in reality are only lip-service.
Subsequent scores and my younger ds's school performance are even more inconsistent. Both boys were actually able to multiply in/before Kindergarten. However, the school would not let him accelerate in math in 1st grade because although his WJ-III scores as compared to other 1st graders were in the 95 percentile, they were in the 60 percentile for the 2nd grade, which was the grade that he would be accelerated to. So, he had to sit in classes where he was bored...and he became very lackadaisical about school, becoming something of a class clown instead. His WJ-III scores (which he has taken 3 times) for Applied Problems have always been close to the 98 percentile, while his calculation scores are closer to the 90 percentile. Also, his math fluency is very low - around the 57 percentile.
Although he can certainly add, subtract, multiply and divide - he cannot do so fast enough to pass the timed tests that the school gives. He still struggles with basic math facts when put on the spot. The school system has recently started giving the Measures of Academic Progress tests this year he scored 73 and 76 on the math portion, even though on the WJ-III he scored in the 95 percentile.
The school is next year trying to keep him out of an accelerated math program which encompases 5th and 6th grade math in one year - even though he gets mainly A's in math and in my opinion is perfectly capable.
I have suspected for some years that he has some sort of LD - and last November we took him to another well respected psychologist to discuss this issue. Basically, all we got out of that meeting was that he could possibly be ADHD-other, but the results were inconclusive. I have done some research on my own and suspect that he may be dyslexic, due to the fact that he exhibits similar characteristics to the boy on this video: However, his reading tests do not seem to indicate that he atually has dyslexia - but every other characteristic is similar.
Other reading that I have done indicates that a score of 10-15 percentile lower on the OLSAT as compared to the WISC-IV is a good indication of some type of LD. Why haven't the psychologists picked up on this, even when questioned about it? How can we figure out what type of LD he might have?
I am hoping that someone has had some sort of experience with this. Any thoughts?
If you are comfortable posting his subtests, it might be easier to give you some meaningful feedback. If you are not comfortable posting them publicly, feel free to pm me.
Just as a general comment, I would not describe your DSs as scoring virtually identically, with a 20 point difference between the two WMIs.
...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
The working memory caught my eye as a difference. 126 is a very good working memory score, but 146 seems like a major academic advantage (in my opinion).
If you suspect something is off, I think you may need a full evaluation (neuropsych) to get to the bottom of a learning or global issue like ADHD. An office visit with a psychologist without formal testing can be a waste of time if the issues are moderate and the IQ is helping to compensate for learning issues- everyone said my DS did not have ADHD until he had a neuropsych which confirmed that he does. It also picked up some weaknesses in language and working memory that the WISC did not- WMI and language are apparently complicated and abilities can be highly variable depending on the context.
I agree that there is a significant difference between working memory between the two boys, but as I said, that is virtually the only big difference - the others do go back and forth quite a bit - the other subtests vary by 4 or less. The differences between their academic performance seem to be a lot more than just memory though. There seems to be a big difference in problem solving ability. Older is able to really do some sustained thinking (loves puzzles, ThinkFun games, etc), while younger will start and if it requires much sustained thinking, he is done with it pretty soon. We were playing an IQ game the other day (analogy questions, sequencing, etc), and he was doing quite well, but we didn't do it for long. It is very clear that my older is "intellectually gifted" - but not so clear with my younger unless you spend a lot of time with him.
Younger ds subtest scores are:
Verbal Comprehension Similarities 13 Vocabulary 17 Information 12
Processing Speed Coding 8 - this one is worrisome Symbol Search 15
That was in 2012. In 2014, he was given the Informational, Digit Span, Arithmetic and Letter-Number Sequencing. The Informational, Digit Span and Arithmetic were the same in 2014 as in 2012. For the Letter-Number Sequencing he got a 14 on the subtest.
The overall measurements on the WISC-IV were:
Verbal Comprehension 125 Perceptual Reasoning 135 Working Memory 126 Processing Speed 109 Full Scale IQ 131 GAI 135
My older scored a 100 on his processing speed - as his coding was a 9, but symbol search an 11. He is much more of a perfectionist than the younger.
The WJ-III scores in 2012 were as follows (SS and then percentile):
(sorry if this comes out unreadable - hard to format)
I should also mention that there could be some dysgraphia involved - he holds his pencil in a awkward way (almost the way a left-hander does, but he is right-handed) and his writing is very sloppy. He also has problems with punctuation, and with grammar at times.
Additionally, he has had problems when he was very little with ear infections, and had his first set of tubes around 6 months. He had tubes 2 more times after that and then developed a hole in his eardrum which caused some hearing loss. His ENT performed a tympanoplasty last spring to repair the hole and it was successful, but he still had a lot of fluid in his ear, so last fall, he had another set of tubes. We just found out yesterday from his pediatrician that the hole has reappeared, so we are back to the ENT next week. His ENT did not seem to think that his hearing loss was bad enough to have a hearing aid, but we do have an appointment with an audiologist in a month to see if he is a candidate. My ds claims that he can hear just fine in school, but in my opinion, we really cannot be sure that this is not causing some problems as well.
I totally agree that I believe his giftedness is masking his LD, but I can't make any sense out of what his LD might be. There seem to be several options - but none of them really fit. I mentioned this to the last psychologist.
What immediately leaps out to me is that he consistently displays relative weaknesses in tasks that require fine-motor speed--this does line up with your suspicions about dysgraphia. Coding, Math Fluency, and Writing Fluency are all both fine-motor speed tasks and notable for results discrepant from the non-speeded or non-fine-motor subtests of their categories (processing speed, math, written language). Even the more subtly-affected block design subtest is the lowest in the perceptual reasoning domain. (In case you're wondering, the fine-motor demands in symbol search are quite minimal, consisting only of the ability to track across wide rows, and make a tick mark.)
I am also struck by his language profile, which is generally stronger in concrete skills (vocabulary, letter-word ID), and weaker in abstract skills (similarities, passage comprehension). (Although written language is the opposite, so that doesn't fit my pattern as well.) I wonder if there are subtle lingering effects on language due to his history of ear infections and hearing loss. If there are, it may be that he has been playing catch up in language development (relative to his own potential), with the last items to catch up being the kind of accumulated general knowledge that he might have picked up from listening and reading, and the more sophisticated verbal reasoning skills. Possibly the better written expression results reflect the difference between comprehending other people's language, and generating his own language, which is also the difference between answering specific questions and defining vocabulary.
No word attack score, so there is no info one way or the other regarding the question of a word-level reading disability (dyslexia).
I'm less concerned about the fluctuation in calculation scores. He took those at about age 6, 7, and 9, I gather. At age 6 and 7, NT children may have success with basic addition, and maybe basic subtraction. A child who can go beyond multiplication will score very high rather easily. By age 9, NT children can multiply, so one needs a much more significant level of computational sophistication to score very high. I would go back to math fluency as the area of concern. Automaticity is very often the core deficit for dysgraphics.
I'm going to throw out there for further investigation (no diagnosing on the internet!): dysgraphia and a receptive language impairment. You'll need an OT for the first, and an SLP for the second.
...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I was very surprised by his score in the writing samples - I had never thought his writing skills were that strong.
While he is an introvert, he is probably the one who talks and expresses himself most in our family. He always has something to say, but he struggles at times to get the thoughts out. I see that in his writing as well. Typically, he has more trouble writing - it is, I think, difficult for him to get his thoughts in order, and to figure out the beginning, middle and end. More so when he writes, than when he speaks, IMO. Although, I have noted that he speaks very fast, and his words tend to run together - my husband has problems understanding him at times and I seem to be the interpreter. We do have to ask him to repeat himself quite a bit because he speaks so quickly, and sometimes softly. I have always thought that this might be a residual effect of the hearing problems, and have asked for the speech therapist at the school to test him, but according to her, his speech is right on track (which I am not sure is the case.) I'm thinking though that taking him to someone outside the school system would probably be the better way to go, so your suggestion of an SLP is not surprising to me.
I'm also thinking that I should probably take him to a neuropsychologist to see about the dyslexia, because from my reading dysgraphia and dyslexia often go hand-in-hand, and Eides' You-Tube video seems pretty on-point as far as Stealth Dyslexia.
I have always read to the boys before bed, even when they were babies. Older ds was turning the pages in books when he was about 6-7 months old while I read to him, but younger ds never wanted to sit still on my lap for 2 books (like Goodnight Moon, or Guess How Much I Love You, etc). Although, he would often pick out a book when he was a little older and sit and look at the pictures by himself, he still didn't want to sit still and actually have someone read it to him. Also when watching Disney movies when they were a little older, older ds would be glued to the TV while younger ds would wander off part-way through the movie. I have often wondered, in hindsight, whether this was due to hearing problems, or potential ADD...
Thanks again for the thoughts. Seems like I'm on the right track - just need to get him to the right people to see if we can get some good diagnoses.
