Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Help, my 10th grader is failing algebra 2

Math has always been Drennen's thing. His peers refer to him as the math genius. All of a sudden this year he is failing Common Core Algebra 2. He does have dysgraphia (can't read his own handwriting), although it is just now having to be diagnosed. No accommodations without a diagnosis. His class only gets to use a calculator for graphing, and they refuse to see the handwriting as an issue. The main issue to Drennen is that he is being placed in a college prep algebra 3 class next year rather than the pre calculus honors class he feels he needs. The school does not see the big deal and feel as though this way they are not setting up for failure. Drennen does not see it that way, he sees it as they are getting in the way of him pursuing his dream (PHD in Astrophysics). Has anyone else been faced with this.

I just wanted to let you know that I am too dealing with almost this same thing. DS9 is currently in 4th grade doing 5th grade math via his gifted self contained class. he scores high on the tests but gets zeros on the work because he too has Dysgraphia and that messes up his numbers when he's "showing his work". I've had to fight hard to get him to do 6th grade math instead which should be implemented next quarter but we'll see. The only thing I can say is to fight for him, and don't stop. And you're not alone...so sorry you are dealing with this.

My son is sort-of in this situation. (He isn't dysgraphic) His peers always looked up to him in math. He did really well in Algebra in 7th and Geometry in 8th and then didn't get the grades in Algebra II last year and was placed in 'regular' pre-calculus this year. He ended up with C+ in Algebra, for multiple reasons and for DS it is water under the bridge. It was partly due to teacher.

DS is getting A's in math this year, has a great teacher and is now on track for being able to go back into the top track next year, although if this is a good idea is still up for debate. (AP Calc BC vs. Calc AB). The biggest downside is part of this class is repetition, they are about to start Matrices a subject that he covered in MORE depth last year and did well on.

What happens if your son takes this 'algebra 3 class' next year. Can he with a good grade move back "up"? Is he getting low grades on tests? Or is it just homework. Is there something he can do in the summer to get back into the top track. Have you talked with the teachers? Is the dysgraphia a problem because it's painful to handle the homework load. Problem in Algebra II can be sometimes really long and take a lot of time.

Not sure if this helps, but I know kids in astrophysicist in college who weren't even on the top track in H.S.

Good Luck... I do know what you are going through.

To the OP-- what, specifically, is causing the failing grade in this class?


Presumably it is poor performance, somehow-- is it conceptual? (Be brutally honest there-- are there ANY conceptual gaps-- of any source or explanation?) Is it just that computationally, he can't get "correct" answers because of the dysgraphia? Is it possible that this is a working memory thing?

Can you mitigate any of that in any way? (Afterschooling, summer school, etc. etc.)

You should also know that Algebra II is the first weeder course on the path to Calculus.

It is a very difficult class. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that even a HG+ student might struggle with it, particularly if there has been a lack of true challenge previously.

(I say this as someone whose kid sailed all through high school mathematics in spite of just about zero instructional support, up to and really, even including pre-calc... and that student has STILL struggled mightily with the eye-watering pace of collegiate math taught at the university level, given that unbelievably poor foundation. Gosh, thanks for nothing, secondary educational system. I also know that I'm not alone among parents here.)

Indeed. Alg II was an eye-opener for me, because I'd never had a prior experience where the teacher used the entire hour, every day, for lecture. This was a teacher with math degrees, he was very thorough, and I left the class every day understanding the material, but that's how much time was needed, because the concepts were that complex. The next day, we moved on to something new. As a student who had never had any challenge in math before, I was unprepared, and earned a C for the first semester, because I wasn't making time to do any of the copious homework (I usually completed that in class before). The teacher wasn't checking it every night, so it was up to our executive management skills to keep up all semester, and my motivation just wasn't there. I wasn't practicing what I was learning, though I was still able to pull low-As on the tests. The homework folder... yikes.

I could easily see a situation in which an LD like dysgraphia would have changed that C to an F.

Another important thing to consider in your DS's case is that if he'd always been told he was a math rock star, and he suddenly finds it difficult, he may be experiencing imposter syndrome, which may be causing him additional emotional issues that get in the way of his intellectual processes. Perfectionism. Self-sabotage.

I must be missing something here... Could you tell me what is difficult about Algebra II? The algebra part of precalculus--yes--but Algebra II seems to me to be nothing more than an Algebra I rehash with a few extras thrown in.

I wouldn't say that Algebra II is entirely an Algebra I rehash with a few extras thrown in, but I'm also with Kai in not really seeing it as any type of weed-out class

I wonder if it's more the teacher or amount of homework given that resulted in it being a "weed-out" class?

polarbear

Kai-- perhaps it used to be that way-- but the treatment of functions from a conceptual stance (rather than a procedural one), the inclusion of trigonometry, and advanced concepts which used to be in a rigorous GEOMETRY course, just to name a few differences. Some of those things are pretty old school-- and the sheer volume, pace, and rigor in the course catches many students off guard, and always has.


Val and I have both had recent (and not particularly good) experience with what passes for calculus preparation in secondary institutions these days.

My own story is much like Dude's, btw, and yes, it did result in imposter syndrome and math struggles that lasted for many years-- well into college. I should have had no trouble with calculus, but I did. Because it scared me. Looking back, my problems were related to the very rude(!!) shift in pace and work expectations, a truly dreadful teacher for the course, coupled with my previous beliefs about my math ability (accurate, but not useful in the context).

I also speculate-- and this is my own hypothesis-- that this is about where a lot of secondary math teachers run out of expertise beyond the bare bones of the course material.

That translates into fairly lackluster or superficial instruction in the course topics. Many of the people teaching this course don't understand much math beyond this content.

whereditgo, it would help us if you could give us more specific details on why he' failing - is it difficulty reading his handwriting (for either himself or the teacher), is he switching numbers or making errors when copying, is he having difficulty keeping up with homework due to large amounts of problems being assigned and running out of time, does he write slowly, does he forget to turn in assignments, is part of the grade hinged on keeping up a notebook and he's not up to par on that, is he not getting good grades on tests, etc.


Does he have a diagnosis now or are you just now pursuing one?

If he doesn't have an official diagnosis, what symptoms of dysgraphia do you see? Dysgraphia is more than just "sloppy handwriting". Please know I'm not questioning, just asking for more details that might help us give suggestions re how to proceed.


This is an issue that will most likely pop up at sometime, somewhere, for any student with dysgraphia. Is this the first time your ds has had this happen? Has he been in b&m schools all along? How were you able to advocate past it in the past, or is this the first time that handwriting has been an issue for him?


First, I have a question - what the heck is an Algebra 3 class? I'd look at the curriculum and be sure it's not a repeat of something he's already had (unless of course he's truly failing Algebra II).

Second, not getting to Calculus during high school isn't going to be the end of a dream of Astrophysics if that's what your ds wants to do. In fact, I'd be careful to consider what might be more of a challenge than math placement next year - i.e., what is happening now that is causing the issue in Algebra II. If your ds has dysgraphia or a different type of learning challenge or something else entirely that's causing him issues in Algebra II, just getting through Algebra II and placed into PreCal next year isn't in and of itself going to mean he won't run into the same issue again. Getting a correct diagnosis, understanding the challenge, and finding a way to accommodate successfully are going to be very important moving forward in his education, especially if he's struggling in an area that is crucial to the upper level education he's passionate about seeking. So, from that respect, at this point in the school year (if you're in the northern hemisphere ) it's possible that an Algebra repeat might not be the worse thing ever - if you can get a correct diagnosis now, work through suggestions and advice on accommodations, taking a repeat next year might give him the chance to truly learn the math in depth plus learn how to deal with the challenges of working with dysgraphia accommodations.


My dysgraphic ds has gotten discouraged in school before - and I think when things like this happens, its important as a parent to help him put his frustration where the actual cause of it is. The staff at school isn't trying to kill his dream - they are trying (I suspect) to do what they feel is best to help him be successful. They may not have all the info they need or understand dysgraphia, so as a parent you need to understand the challenge and you need to help your ds understand it. You probably can't do that in a vacuum, you'll need a professional diagnosis and your ds, as a teen, might need input from another adult/professional/mentor/whoever. You can find info on accommodations (and consult with professionals to do so), but your ds will have to be a key part of testing accommodations, thinking through what is needed and isn't needed, and deciding how he will use them and what works for him. He'll also need to see an example from you of how to advocate for himself, and then he'll need to be able to start advocating for himself (if he does have dysgraphia or another LD).


I have two 2e kids, one has dysgraphia and is in high school. He's had different classes at different times that were a challenge due to dysgraphia and required us to advocate as well as think through accommodations and at times try new accommodations.

Math can be tough for dysgraphic kids for several different reasons, which is why I asked for more specific details at the beginning of my reply. The good news is, the reasons why math is tough *can* be accommodated. I'll list a few of the things my ds does in my next reply, if you see something that seems similar in terms of a challenge hello might have your ds try the accommodation at home - but again, my first recommendation is to get the diagnosis and a professional's input on what's up.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - I mentioned "professional diagnosis" several times above - please know I wasn't specifically *not* including a diagnosis through your school. That counts too

It sounds to me like you're describing what is typically taught in precalculus. I'm teaching Algebra II right now and taking precalculus (in preparation for teaching it--or at least providing human-in-the-room help--next year) and am seeing a huge jump in complexity between them. But between Algebra I and II, not so much.

Some examples of how my dysgraphic ds uses accommodations for dysgraphia for his math classes (note: he's in high school, currently taking Algebra II, and doing well). I've listed the challenge first, then the accommodation, and listed the challenges roughly in order of larger challenge to lesser challenge in terms of impact.

1) Amount of time it takes to finish homework. This is one challenge that he can't entirely get around, so he lives with it. That said, when the amount of time has been so significant that it cut into his time to complete other work and also have a semblance of a life, he's used typing to turn in his work and he's also had an accommodation to do every other problem in the assignment or in one class was allowed to do just one problem of each type. That worked great for him, but he also had no issues at the time with understanding the concept and "getting it" on the first try. Re typing assignments, there are software solutions. The best is the Efofex software, and the Efofex folks will give students with a disability a 10-year free license to all of their software modules. There are also math formula apps and graphing apps on the iPad, as well as other solutions for computer keyboarding of for writing formulas.

2) Keeping track of assignments and making sure they are turned in. This includes simple (to nt folks) things like putting his name and assignment on the paper. He's had this issue in most of his classes, and math class in many ways was the one class that helped him learn how to deal with it because there is so much repeated structure in math - the paper always has the same heading with just a change in assignment number, and homework is usually daily so he knows to expect it etc, and his math teachers are usually good about either listing the assignment on the board or on a website daily so he can reliably find the assignment and he can easily repeat the same step of looking in the same place each class period. And this is an excellent example of where knowing for certain what the diagnosis is can help - dysgraphia isn't just about handwriting - it's about a lack of automaticity which can extend into other things, such as remembering to check the board to see what your assignment for the day is. Dysgraphic kids take a lot longer to have things such as this that seem straightforward become "automatic" (some of these things never do become automatic) - so it's important to be able to see where the challenge is impacting, and to understand that it's not as easy as telling a student "look at the board" - you have to give some type of repeated support until it really does become something the student knows to do on his/her own.

3) Challenges with taking notes - ds is so challenged with speed of handwriting combined with sloppiness of it combined with errors made while copying that he can't use handwriting at all for taking notes. His default accommodation for years has been to just remember everything. He still relies on that a lot, but he has an official accommodation where his teacher gives him a copy of her class notes which he prints out and keeps in his notebook. If his teacher hadn't been willing to give him a copy of her notes, he would have been able to get a copy of another students' notes per his 504 plan. Some schools will also let students audio record lectures (our high school will not).

4) Switching numbers when copying or making what look like silly mistakes when copying. This happens frequently to my ds, and it's something that happens even when he's typing. The only way to get "around" it is to check his work, and if he checks his work just by doing the problem over again, he sometimes makes mistakes the second time around on problems he had correct the first time around. The thing he's done over the years is to look for ways to "check" problems for accuracy that aren't just repeating the same process. Look for ways to see that the answer you have makes sense. And all of this checking leads to the next big challenge:

5) Running out of time on tests. DS has an official accommodation for extended time on in-class tests and on standardized tests. In our experience, this is an *easy* accommodation to get if you have an official diagnosis and can show that your student has run out of time on previous testing.

Again, if you want accommodations in place, you'll need the diagnosis and you'll need to work through which accommodations are needed and how to implement them.

Hope some of this helps!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I think there are lots of things to sort through here. Most of it has little to do with his math ability, so remind your son not to get down on his math potential as you work through it.


Hang in there.

I also think what is considered to be a "huge jump in complexity" is dependent on the individual. None of these concepts were a huge jump in complexity for me as a high school student and so far haven't been for my ds, although I can see some that are causing him to think more than others. He's had some trig thrown in with his Algebra II course, and it was *easy* for him - the easiest (from his perspective) of anything he's done in Alg II. Not so easy for some of the other students in his class.

I also think it's important to keep in mind, as Mom2Two points out - having one challenging course doesn't mean everything from here on out is going to not work - I suspect that many of us had that one class in either high school or college that was totally completely unexpectedly difficult (compared to our expectations of smooth sailing because it was a class in a subject we were great at) and it was simply that - a class to get through, and once you'd moved on you'd move on.

I'm not saying this is the issue here - if dysgraphia or some other challenge is at play, it's not going to go away with this class. But if it's simply the material or the teacher or whatever things will be ok after this class is over. They'll be ok if it's dysgraphia or another LD too. The key is to understand what's up.

polarbear

It sounds like it's worth remembering that different schools teach the same concepts in classes with different names. I had a heck of a time getting credit for my summer Analytical Geometry class, because those concepts were taught (if at all - it was far more rigorous than anything my peers got) in Algebra II.

algebra 2 killed me

Drennen understands what is being taught. He is able to sit with me at home and walk me through the problems and get them right without the use of a calculator. When Drennen does his homework without me, I double check his work with an online calculator that shows the steps. This way he can see where he made a mistake in his head. It is usually a careless error such as not carrying the one and throws the answer off. He also helps his friends who don't understand the math, to understand it and they go on to make good grades, while he is the last one to finish and squeaks by. He has a 70 average, so not truly failing. I understand pre-calculus, and calculus are difficult, but Drennen helps students in these classes with their homework, and they also are passing. We have known since Drennen was in elementary school that his handwriting was an issue, but mostly in English. Drennen is not in honors English 3 because of this, and it was his choice. He took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and scored a 89 for the year. Last year in honors Geometry, he scored a 96 for the year. His standardized test scores are extremely high in all subjects. In his English 3 class, he is the only sophomore in his junior class. The juniors are soon taking the ACT, so she reviewed for it in class. Drennen took the practice test with them and did extremely well, which helped his confidence. What I'm trying to say, is Drennen fully understands the math, but by doing it in his head, is unable to show it. I am back in college and Drennen is my math tutor, I have never understood math myself, until now.

Thanks for the reply. The District has an online algebra 2 class that allows the use calculators, and Drennen is being required to take it, even if he passes the class this year. Like I said, it is only Drennen's teacher not allowing them. If he does extremely well on it, the principal will re-consider the pre-calculus placement, but not likely. Calculator policies are left up to the individual teachers. Drennen does do his homework, but does not turn it in. I have always found that if Drennen has 0's in a class, he is having difficulty with the teacher, and refuses to go near them. He has a hard time being fussed at especially in front of his peers. We are working on this issue, since he is going to have to overcome this issue in order to succeed.

Thank you. Usually when Drennen struggles with writing, he laughs it off, as his quirk, and moves on. Sometimes, his teachers will take points off for writing, but he never gets upset because he understands why, and can't blame them. They actually joke with him, and tell him one day he'll have a secretary. Last year, the highest score he could achieve was a 50 on his writing assignments. He understood why, so no issue. He was not held back, he passed and went on to the next level honors class and is doing well. He is upset, because only one teacher doesn't understand and is holding him back.

According to the school, Algebra 2 is the most failed subject in the district. I of course do not understand why. If that is the case, shouldn't we find a way to help kids better understand it. Drennen's classmates actually look to him for help, because they do not understand the teacher. This is also the issue. Why can my child teach his classmates and they go on to honors pre-calculus while he doesn't. Maybe he should stop helping them so the rest of the class is held back right along with him. Of course this won't happen. Drennen loves helping others and when they succeed, he is happy he was able to help. The teacher is aware that Drennen is tutoring and helping, which is even more puzzling as to why she believes Drennen is not capable of the work.

I agree, I am able to do Drennen's homework, without ever taking Algebra 2 or calculus in my life. Maybe it's not the kids, but the teacher. Nooo, that can't be it.

In Drennen's school, his teacher is the only one restricting calculators. Do you know the recommendation for calculators in Algebra 2. All the pre-calculus classes use them, but I do not know what the majority of Common Core classes are doing. I'm getting conflicting information. I don't want to start a calculator debate, I just want to know what is done in your class.