Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy update on AP or PSEO options

We finally got a chance to sit down with a guidance counselor at Rite's high school and go over Rite's goals and options.

Rite wants to go to Standford and eventually go into medicine. He's been pretty consistant on that goal for the last 2-3 years. He also wants to play soccer in college.

Sooooo...with those goals in mind, the counselor mapped out 2 plans of action. Consistant to both plans is his sophmore year. He is finishing up geometry and will be starting Algebra II at BYU Elearning in the next couple of weeks. The hope is to be done with Algebra II by August. His math teachers and the guidance couselor feel that will be no problem for him.

Given that works as planned, his sophmore year is Pre-AP English, AP US History (a toughie), Spanish II, Chemistry, Pre-Calculus and Choir--if he doesn't finish Algebra II by then, he can still work on it then take pre-calc at BYU next.

Then the options for junior and sophmore years really open up.

He can continue on the AP schedule. Try to complete all 8 courses (maybe more will be offered by then, too) and go for being valedictorian and scholarships if things work out with ACT/SAT scores being high enough.

or

He can do Post Secondary Options completely and skip 11th and 12th grade and go right to college freshman level courses taken at the University of MN. The courses are graded at face value and are not weighted (which is so strange, imo) so he would be out of the running for valedictorian. However, he'd almost certainly be accepted to continue studies at the UofMN starting in his junior year. Basically it amounts to 2 years of college at state expense. Depending on ACT/SAT scores and PSEO performance he'd be in line for a full scholarship to finish up. The big downfall is he wouldn't be able to play soccer, most likely, at the high school just because of scheduling issues. It is possible, but somewhat difficult. The other downfall is he is stuck at UofMN, which is a great school, but not in the top 4 where Rite wants to be. Other schools would accept him only as a transfer student and not as a freshman and that limits his scholarship chances and college choices.

However, he wants pre-med and the guidance counselor said this actually sets him up perfectly for going on to medical school at any of those top 4 schools, if he continues to progress well, at the age of 22 or sooner depending on how many courses he takes in his junior year. She said he could actually finish college in 3 years if he made the right choices and did well.

We, THANK GOODNESS!!!, have a year to decide his route, since he doesn't have the options until junior year.

My feeling is WOW $30,000 (minimum) in tuition, fees, room, board and other expenses will remain in Fite and Bite pockets!! Plus, having the option to go to college 2 years early is an honor in and of itself. Only the top 10% of the students can take these options, she told me today. Plus, we could save even more on room and board because he can stay home until he finishes using this option. So that's roughly another $20,000 saved.

Which way would you encourage your kid to go?

I am a big fan of going to undergrad school early - at the states expense.
As far as college, he could start developing a relationship now with the faculty at his top pick schools. They may know of some scholarships or have money in the department he could get as a transfer student. Some people actually discourage getting your graduate and undergraduate degrees at the same school. So, doing undergrad at MN, then doing his med. degree at the school of his choosing could be a great option.
As for soccer - is there a preprofessional club he can join? What about playing at the college?

Willa Gayle -
((happy little dance))
That is wonderful news! I'm so glad to hear it!
Trinity

I said it wrong...he'd graduate by 20 if he plows right through or possibly 19 if he really pushes it.

Hi Willa,

It is great that two good options are available to you. Although different, either way would work.

Option 1 is to try to get in Stanford as an undergrad. It is achievable if he continues to do well but no guarantee given the fact that Stanford is very competitive. Another thing to consider is the cost. Four year at Stanford will probably cost over $200,000. Some assistance may be available depending on income/asset, etc.

Option 2 seems to me a sure thing if your son chooses to do PSEO. The saving is huge. Although going to UofMN is not same experience as going to Stanford, it makes you wonder whether that amount of money is really worth it. Besides, your son already decided to go to a graduate school. That makes Options 2 even more appealing because people usually only look at your last degree.

thanks chenchuan. That's where I'm heading in my thinking.

Willa Gayle,

I second and third what stbmom and chenchuan have stated. Free undergraduate degree in hand versus possibility of Stanford � I would opt for the free tuition and concentrate on getting into med school next. I know that the U of M medical school is quite good also (just in case)!

Would he be commuting to your home from Minneapolis every day or will he live on campus (I know it is huge)?

You have some really excellent options to consider.

Diana

He will commute. It's about a 25 minute drive off traffic and about double that on traffic.

I like our options. I'm excited to see how he's processing the information. He's excited and has called me 3 times today! chuckle.

It's fun to have GOOD things to process.

I'm adding yet another vote for the free undergrad degree. The last degree is what really matters, so for a student who knows he really wants to go to grad school, you just need to make sure that the undergrad degree is solid for graduate applications. The UofMn is a good school, so when he's done he can apply to any grad school he likes.

Jill

Fite, another vote here for option 2.

Let me tell you a quick story about my 17 y/o niece. She graduated at 16 and is now in her first year of college, pre-med. I'll never forget hearing her first impressions of college last Fall. With great excitement and passion, she announced that she'd learned more in the first three weeks of college than in her entire junior and senior years of high school combined.

Initially she was aiming for Harvard or similar but instead has been *thrilled* with her final (non-Ivy League, less expensive) choice. Her classes are challenging, she volunteers weekly at a hospital, and she's already made great connections in the local medical community. She even had the unusual opportunity to shadow a thoracic surgeon and attend a lung-removal surgery, where she was allowed to scrub in, view the surgery up close and even assist in some surgical procedures that usually are not taught to students until their 3rd year of med school.

She is thrilled to finally be in college, to finally be able to choose the courses she wants, to be challenged and work to her potential. (All thanks to a grade skip in elementary--otherwise, she'd still be in high school right now!) She loves being in college at a younger age than most kids. She says she feels lucky to be getting this "jump start" on her medical career. And no, she doesn't fit in socially with her classmates. She says, "they're thinking beer, and I'm thinking career." She's a straight arrow and all her friends are the older, more serious students.

From what you've said about Rite, I'll bet he would feel the same way about early entry to college. That's an incredible opportunity.

Hugs,
GG

Oh yea, one more thing to consider!!
Medical school is a LONG process. So, the sooner he starts, the sooner he will be able to "get on" with his life. Many doctors put off getting married and having children until after residency. The sooner he enters school, the sooner you can have grandkids (okay, just kidding :))
But really, it is very long and very expensive. Many doctors end up with lots of money in loans, so the more you save on the front end, the less loans he may need to take out on the back end.

That's on my mind, too.

See the thing is, one way or the other the next 3 years are going to be busy and challenging for Rite. I've heard the "let him enjoy his childhood...why push him" argument from most of the relatives last night. I answered "To save $30,000 or more". chuckle.

Anyhow, the guidance counselor said making it through the U of MN with good grades and a great MCAT (is that the pre-test for med school??) will give him great options for med. schools. She said he could also be set up for excellent assistance for those, too.....assistantships and the like.

Rite says he'd like to be a cardiologist. So, he does have a long haul. Of course, he's only just turned 15. He's a long way to go to decide on his career.

The grandkid thing..........YIKES!!! Gosh! I am that old!!!

chuckle

GG--your niece sounds a lot like Rite--highly motivated.

We are going to see if we can set up and appointment with the soccer coach at the U to discuss Rites options for playing collegiate soccer. There is some catch about being a "transfer" student or a "junior" when entering after doing the PSEO.

Still, he's a good soccer play, but I don't expect to see "RITE KID OF FITE AND BITE EARNS $250,000,000 CONTRACT WITH REAL MADRID"

chuckle.

Soccers secondary, imo, to $30,000 in our pockets.

Last night Rite said he is planning on doing PSEO because it is a sure thing and he said he felt as if some pressure lifted about the valedictorian and Stanford stuff. (ahahaa!! He's thinking like Momma!!)

Then this morning, he said, "I don't know. I've always thought I'd go to Stanford. I know I can do those AP courses." (ohhhhhhhh! not Momma thinking!!!)

It's going to be a looooooong year. I think the AP US History next year may help him set his mind.

This is so much more fun a problem to solve than the trying to get Mite's teacher to comply with the IEP problem. chuckle

notice I'm not even having to remind myself to breathe!!!

How about giving him an assignment this summer of getting in contact with the Stanford folks and seeing if he can work out a deal to transfer there in 2 years (well, 3 years). Or maybe trying to find a faculty mentor.
Having the right mentor can open LOTS of doors.
When I got my master's degree - I was offered a full stipend, plus teachings assistantship over the phone. Just by talking to the right person!
Help him see that each choice is simply a path to where is wants to go - not the final solution. Also, maybe have him map out his entire path to being a doctor. Seeing 2 years cut off of a 10 year program just might be the motivation he needs.
You definitely want him to feel he is making the decision, but helping him "find" that decision isn't bad either

"Last night Rite said he is planning on doing PSEO because it is a sure thing and he said he felt as if some pressure lifted about the valedictorian and Stanford stuff."

That is rather regrettable move. My younger daughter, 13, freshman, wants to go to Stanford too. No particular reason, just because it is close to home. I was hoping that may be they can go to school together. :-)

They may still, who knows.

I just read up on the PSEO program on the U's web site. It looks like they accept any kid in the 15th%ile and up in their class. So, the guidance counselors info was a little misleading, but maybe I misunderstood her.

Still, it is an incredible program. Distance learning is available, too. So, he doesn't have to be down at the U all the time.

Still processing.....

Willa,
You might find it of interest...
http://insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/22/aid
Ania

Thank you. That adds a little twist.

You know, I wish we had to make this decision in a week, not a year. It's driving us buggy. chuckle.

I like the assignment idea. He wants to contact Stanford and a couple of other schools and find out about transferring and such. I'm not sure who to contact though. We're looking into it.

I found out the other day the UMN doesn't have a soccer team -- major blow to the PSEO points in our discussion. chuckle.

Nowdays there are quite a few schools that are offering concurrent enrollment/ early college experience. So far we have looked at this from the perspective of money. I wonder how top universities are going to compare those students with the ones finishing AP/ IB programs. Any thoughts?
Ania

My understanding is they look on them as transfer students and they are not given priority in admissions. Also, grading is taken at face value, unlike AP where grading is weighted. So a PSEO student getting straight isn't going to do as well as an AP student getting straight As.

I think that is strange. I mean a kid taking PSEO is doing work 2+ years ahead; so, why isn't that weighted?

I don't know how it works with IB programs, but I sure am interested because I'm watching that for Mite.

My gut feeling is that in general (again, IN GENERAL) the kids who take PSEO route are not as academically able as kids who take AP route. But this is just my feeling, there is most likely no data neither to confirm or deny that.
Ania