Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy How do you know if it's really too hard?

So for the last two years, DD11 has been in the fortunate position where she can jump ahead as necessary in school. And we've learned during this time to to trust her need to move ahead. She's working 2-3 years accelerated across all subjects at this point and has been happy and engaged for the most part (there is still the occasional class that's too easy). In areas where she struggles (like math) she's been making progress in learning how to apply herself in steady regular doses.

However, this past term she ran up against her first AP level science class and kind of hit a wall. There has been much complaining (whining!) and struggling and some tears. She talked with the teacher to get advice (with my strong encouragement) and has been trying alternate sources (online videos along with the text). She's been meeting with a tutor a couple of times a month for extra help. But she's also been slacking off, avoiding the day to day work because it takes her forever to make any progress. We've tried to help her learn to navigate the text (not everything is important) but it still takes her a long time to get through the work. She's complaining that nothing makes any sense and she doesn't know any of the answers in class. She loved doing the lab report, but did need some additional help from me to get through it. So basically it's a big challenge and she's asking to drop it next term.

The trouble is that DH and I have no idea what's really going on. How do we know? Is it...

a) The fact that she is really having to study hard for the first time and it's a terrible shock?

b) The fact that the class is inverted (with all the learning outside of class and lab and quizzes in class) and she hates it -- she hasn't been shy about telling us?

c) The fact that this class just really is too difficult right now, she's missing middle school chemistry, and she needs to slow down?

What we tell her is based on what's actually going on here.

If it's a) then we'd want her to stick with it and work through it... after all, perseverance, effort, and even failure are critical lessons that she's not had to really learn yet. We don't actually care if she comes out of the class ready for the test or even having retained most of the material. For us it's about the effort.

If it's b) we'd still want her not to give up, but might be more willing to find a different or supplemental class (online for example) with more direct instruction (lecture classes are how she learns best).

If it's c) well, it's not a race. She could just drop it or replace it with an easier offering.

It's hard because we just don't know and this is a new experience for us.

None of us can know entirely what's going on here, but I see a few hints that maybe it's time to drop this class:


You've mentioned above that your dd struggles in math and has learned how to apply herself - so it doesn't sound like this is the absolute first class she's had a tough time with, so I'd discount the "having to study hard for the first time" cause.


Does she feel like without a lecture she's not getting enough reinforcement from what she's reading in the book? It's possible it's jus the style of class that is the issue. OTOH, does she not enjoy labs? Not every kid in the universe is going to enjoy lab work, and to be honest, if my child didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't push that type of course until later on. Did she have any lab work in her middle school courses? How did she like it?


You didn't mention which science course the AP course is - but I'm guessing from what you've written here it's AP Chem? If the other students in the course have taken high school chemistry first and this is your dd's first year of chemistry, she may be running head on into assumptions about what background knowledge she has. That doesn't necessarily mean that going backwards and taking the prerequisite (expected) chemistry course is necessarily the right thing to do, but it's possible there are gaps that she has that are causing unnecessary struggle.

Do you have a background in whatever science course she's taking? What's your gut feeling based on your own background?

Best wishes,

polarbear

What we tell her is based on what's actually going on here.

If it's a) then we'd want her to stick with it and work through it... after all, perseverance, effort, and even failure are critical lessons that she's not had to really learn yet. We don't actually care if she comes out of the class ready for the test or even having retained most of the material. For us it's about the effort.

If it's b) we'd still want her not to give up, but might be more willing to find a different or supplemental class (online for example) with more direct instruction (lecture classes are how she learns best).

If it's c) well, it's not a race. She could just drop it or replace it with an easier offering.

It's hard because we just don't know and this is a new experience for us. [/quote]

I agree with this up to one point - from my perspective, it's not about the *effort*, it's about the learning, acquiring knowledge. I wouldn't want to quash my child's someday-potential-passion for this particular science subject by forcing them to stick with a class where the effort required was so huge it was causing issues. I'm not saying I'd let my kids back out of a class simply because it was hard, but there's a difference between coping with a difficult class and feeling constantly behind and frustrated because of having to put in a relatively extreme effort to stay on pace. I have no idea where your dd and this class fall related to those two things, but that's what I'd be looking at in making a decision.

Best wishes,

polarbear

My first thought on reading about an 11yo doing AP science in a flipped class is: asynchrony. Learning is not difficult for a gifted child, but learning how to learn is a different animal. It's easy for you to say what's important, for example, because you're already educated on the subject, but your DD can't figure it out on her own. So, B.

Your DD's feedback should be strongly considered, so that makes two of us for B.

Class is AP Bio and she's had two years of middle school bio. The chem gap comes up in terms of some content, but not all.

As others have said, we don't really know what's happening, but I'll interject an anecdote from my personal experience. When I was just slightly younger than your DD, I took an 11th-grade US history course and really struggled with the aspects of it that were most vulnerable to asynchrony: organization and executive function necessary to complete a number of long-term writing projects, and the higher-level analytical skills that would have made that writing more cohesive and meaningful. I ended up dropping the class near the end of the school year, and re-taking it two years later, at which point I breezed through it. My parents' approach to the perseverance aspect of this was to work with me on completing the last major writing project (10-pg research report) into the summer, with the prior approval of the instructor, and submit it to him for instructional feedback. I was fortunate to have a remarkable history teacher who was willing to accommodate this solution.

ETA: Oh, and my point was...it was a relief to drop the class, even that late into the year, and even though I hated any implication that I had "failed" at something. What made the difference was my parents' openness about the reasons for doing so, which were clearly focused on factors that were not within my control, such as how they had had to adjust their own assessment of the match between my holistic preparedness and this course, not because of any inadequacy on my part, but because of aspects of adult decision-making. Completing the major writing assignment, even for no credit, helped to bring closure to the course for me, and took the edge off of not finishing. My parents also did not pull me from the actual day-to-day class, so it was not obvious to my classmates. They just made a private arrangement with the school and teacher that I would not be graded or receive credit for the course, and we would try again later, when the match was better.

Personal awareness of how you best learn is significant, and likely has an even larger impact for the highly gifted; as it may very well be part of the mojo. If the format isn't working, then she should be able to regroup and look for the right context to learn the material.

But to prove that, maybe she should describe what an ideal AP biology class would look like and how that would help in one specific area she's found this course too hard.

However, if the inverted class doesn't include an active Q&A at the beginning of the classroom time, then I'd let her drop it.

I think AP Bio might be tough without a prior Bio class and some Chem. I guess I don't know what middle school Bio would be - would that be equivalent to one year of a HS Bio course?

Our HS requires Honor Bio and Honors Chem before AP Bio. Typically students take AP Bio senior year because you must take Physics in 11th (and must take Chem in 10th). Middle kid was recommended by her 9th grade Bio teacher for AP Bio and she took it in 10th. However, the school insisted on Chem prior to or concurrent with AP Bio, so she took Chem in the summer before 10th (takes two foreign languages, couldn't fit two sciences).

She thought the Chem did help in some areas of AP Bio. Also, a full year of HS Bio helped a lot. It may just be too much catching up to HS kids who have that year of HS Bio and HS Chem.

It is great that your school is willing to accelerate though. Even after she aced her summer Chem course at a rigorous private school, our school made her take the Honors Chem final, would not provide her the HS textbook or final exam review packet, and told her that is was all MC (it was not). Told her she had to pass with an 80%. She got a 90%, then they insisted she do a lab because they weren't really sure if she understood the material...your school sounds a lot better.

This is AP Chemistry? Yes it is possible she has jumped too far. At my local H.S. AP Chemistry is only taken after a year of H.S. Chemistry. Has she taken regular H.S. Chemistry? Regular H.S. Biology? Algebra II? Chemistry requires a lot of math and if that isn't her strength it would be easy to struggle. Our school required co-current Algebra II or higher math for regular Chemistry, and a good grade at Algebra II for AP Chem. And the AP Chemistry class assumes that you have prior knowledge of Chemistry and a H.S. Biology class. If you go to the AP site you will find this to be their recommendation. Also the AP Chemistry tests/program was completely overhauled last year and it's possible the teacher is still struggling with how to teach the new class.

"The AP Chemistry course is designed to be taken only after the successful completion of a first course in high school chemistry. " from: http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/ap/ap-chemistry-course-and-exam-description.pdf

I'm going to offer a perspective which is based on much the same observations as aeh's-- that is, no, I suspect that this course is not "too hard" at least in terms of the actual content and pacing.

My guess is that the organizational challenges are the issue-- and that the relentless pacing of an AP course is a factor.

As for the business of needing a full year of a high school subject PRIOR to the AP course-- hogwash. I say that as someone whose child breezed through a number of them and the only one that was laughably easy was the one that she nominally had the "prerequisite" course for, although it was also not at all clear to either one of us what good that prerequisite actually did in terms of the class (APUSH).



On the other hand, the output demands of an AP course can come as quite the shock.

I don't know your child, Ivy, but what I will say is that allowing DD to "quit" when the opportunity existed to hot-house her through something that would have been entirely appropriate but for major asynchrony issues, well... that was one of our chief means of fighting perfectionism.

Allowing her to back away from challenges when they felt indimidating was one of the worst things that we ever did. We did allow it for a short time when she was about 7-10yo. It was a mistake.

Being able to tackle challenges to expand that proximal zone was crucial in preparing DD for college entry. It's an odd kind of developmental arc, for sure-- but this is the developmental arc for a number of HG+ kids-- early matriculation, I mean.