Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 344 guests, and 18 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Gingtto, SusanRoth, Ellajack57, emarvelous, Mary Logan
    11,426 Registered Users
    April
    S M T W T F S
    1 2 3 4 5 6
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27
    28 29 30
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    All of this is IMO, and I'm going to disagree somewhat with previous posters.

    As a systems engineer, I semi-regularly find myself providing mathy explanations to non-mathy business unit representatives. My personal definition of mathematics is that it's a language that describes relationships. Relationships of what? It's all a bunch of abstract principles unconnected to reality (which is why the ancient philosophers found them so beautiful). We have to connect those principles to our particular real-world applications via English, or another language of choice.

    So, are they correct in saying it's important to be able to express mathematics in a wordy, English-oriented way? Yes.

    Is Everyday Math the way to go about it? Absolutely not. EM has other egregious problems (spiraling and insisting every student learn and master 8 different ways to perform the same simple operation) apart from its language element, but even the language element is flawed, due to overemphasis during very early, simplistic math operations. Give the kids one or two problems at the end of the assignment where they have to write out an answer, then ramp that up when they get to something more complex, like Algebra.

    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    I
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Apr 2013
    Posts: 5,245
    Likes: 1
    Quote
    mathematicians today "write out their answers" a la the style of Everyday Math.
    Some may say this statement by the principal presents an opportunity to respond that you'd like to know more about this trend, and ask to see the source: research, articles, etc. Personally I would follow up on this and learn what the principal & teacher are basing their presentation on... setting the teacher's anecdotal experience aside, as it does not speak for the field as a whole.

    Meanwhile, a quick websearch on Everyday Math brings us to the website of the University of Chicago, School Mathematics Project, Resource and Information Center, "created by the authors of Everyday Mathematics". There are tabs for home, about, parents, teachers, and teaching topics. Using their website search feature to find the keyword "writing" presents a results list including
    - Teaching Topics, Individual Needs, a page in which the word "writing" appears three times in the section titled, "How can I provide enrichment within the classroom to students who are ready to think more deeply about content?" (where thinking more deeply about content may be a code phrase for gifted). Based upon what is presented, some may understand writing to be a form of differentiation for gifted pupils.
    - A listserv. The results list shows snippets of teacher inquiries on the topic of having their pupils write.

    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 46
    J
    Junior Member
    Offline
    Junior Member
    J
    Joined: Aug 2013
    Posts: 46
    Our district is requiring writing in all subjects including PE. So my middle schooler had to research and write a paper about volleyball. She also had to write a biography of a mathematician for math class. It's a bit much in my opinion.

    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 336
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 336
    Well, there's the fact that we're talking about Everyday Math, here. If there's a curriculum more detested by people who like and understand math, I haven't found it.

    That aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect kids to learn to be able to explain math concepts in words. Math is a language, yeah, but it's one that can be memorized without developing deep conceptual understanding, especially at elementary level. It's harder compose a written explanation without the conceptual understanding. So it's a good exercise.

    I work in software development and while I'm sure this isn't universally true of all companies, I encounter a fair amount of writing/talking about mathy concepts. Engineers who have the ability to explain their thoughts in words definitely have an advantage over those who don't as far as pushing their ideas and gathering support for their plans.

    Though perhaps just not in the way, or quantity, expected in Everyday Math in particular.

    Last edited by Aufilia; 09/11/14 04:07 PM.
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 336
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 336
    Originally Posted by shifrbv
    Not in a STEM field but can totally empathize. DD8 scores high on math (99% on MAP) yet for this first quarter she has a C- in math. Why? She is terrible at writing. The test required so much writing and of course it's difficult for her to get one hundred seventy-eight million three hundred forty-three thousand seven hundred eleven on her test let alone other sentences to explain it all! It just seems bizarre.

    Why is she writing out the numbers in words? Unless the problem is, "Explain what all the numbers in 178,343,711 mean," then I don't think there's any need to go to extremes like that. Past the basic level, writing in math should be to explain an operation or concept. If the teacher actually expects that, I think she's doing it wrong.

    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 1,489
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Mar 2013
    Posts: 1,489
    Originally Posted by JenT
    Our district is requiring writing in all subjects including PE. So my middle schooler had to research and write a paper about volleyball. She also had to write a biography of a mathematician for math class. It's a bit much in my opinion.
    At my high school writing is required for most "arts" classes if they want to be counted as college prep classes. Regular PE doesn't count, so no essay required. But when my DD took dance she had to attend three outside performances and write up a review. And for her photography class she had to do a report on a famous photographer. Not necessary for math classes and in science the kids write up labs.

    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 337
    I
    Ivy Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 337
    I work in a STEM field, so here's a real-life example: One of our brilliant researchers was presenting a paper to a group of engineers (and me, the PM). Yes of course there was an intro about the problem space and the challenge we're looking at solving. Then he says "so as you can plainly see..." and pulls up whole page of equations. I topped out in Calc II in college and these looked only vaguely familiar. But he lead a spirited discussion of the results with the group and there was general agreement as to the ramifications.

    This is about as far as EM as you can get IMHO.

    Oh, and EM confused and killed my daughter's love of math too.

    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2011
    Posts: 5,181
    Originally Posted by Dude
    All of this is IMO, and I'm going to disagree somewhat with previous posters.

    As a systems engineer, I semi-regularly find myself providing mathy explanations to non-mathy business unit representatives. My personal definition of mathematics is that it's a language that describes relationships. Relationships of what? It's all a bunch of abstract principles unconnected to reality (which is why the ancient philosophers found them so beautiful). We have to connect those principles to our particular real-world applications via English, or another language of choice.

    So, are they correct in saying it's important to be able to express mathematics in a wordy, English-oriented way? Yes.

    Is Everyday Math the way to go about it? Absolutely not. EM has other egregious problems (spiraling and insisting every student learn and master 8 different ways to perform the same simple operation) apart from its language element, but even the language element is flawed, due to overemphasis during very early, simplistic math operations. Give the kids one or two problems at the end of the assignment where they have to write out an answer, then ramp that up when they get to something more complex, like Algebra.


    This. To add to what Polarbear and Val (and so many others) have already said.

    It's not like I need to "explain" how I've written something in, say.... Spanish, right? I only need to do that if I am translating it for someone who does not Habla Espanol. Same thing here. EM only teaches students "how to explain basic math to people who have no idea how to use either hand OR the provided flashlight."

    Ahem.



    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 140
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Feb 2014
    Posts: 140
    I am not in the US and have no experience whatsoever with the actual Everyday Math. But I am studying to be a high school math teacher, and there is a lot of emphasis on the need for literacy to be developed within the mathematics classroom. As mentioned by Aufilia, a lot of mathematical processes can be memorised without actually understanding the mathematics behind it. I did quite well in mathematics all the way through university, but when I try to explain ideas, I realise that I lack a lot of the conceptual underpinning and authentic understanding of why I am doing what I am doing. An example that really drove it home for me was the process of how to divide fractions. I know to invert and multiply, but then to try to think why that process works and how to explain why it works is an entirely different issue. And at a higher level, I took calculus twice, about 10 years between each time. The first time I memorised the process for integrating to find the area under the curve, which worked perfectly well. The second time, I actually developed an understanding of why it works, and this was a much richer understanding.

    I feel that my own education let me down by not building a strong foundation in the conceptual understanding of mathematics, and I hope to help my students with that. I didn't find the actual lack of understanding affected my ability to succeed in the mathematics classroom, but does affect my ability to teach effectively. We learn through language, and being able to write the mathematical processes is important, but also being able to explain them helps to develop a deeper understanding of what you are doing.

    Word problems are dreaded by many students. They are not always an ideal way of presenting mathematical problems, but students often struggle because their ability to use mathematical language needs further development, not because they do not understand the mathematical processes involved in the problems.

    I don't think writing should be arbitrarily thrown in, and students should not have to write down every thing. But I do think language and writing are powerful tools for math learning.


    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 1,228
    2
    22B Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Feb 2013
    Posts: 1,228
    I'm interested in what people here think explains the teacher's assertions as quoted in the OP.

    My theory is that the teacher is a complete nutcase. He's brazenly describing some kind of recent writing "revolution" among math or STEM professionals. He seems to have no concern that he'll be caught out by the more astute parents. What on earth is he thinking? I certainly wouldn't want my kid in a classroom with someone like that.

    Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Beyond IQ: The consequences of ignoring talent
    by Eagle Mum - 04/21/24 03:55 PM
    Testing with accommodations
    by blackcat - 04/17/24 08:15 AM
    Jo Boaler and Gifted Students
    by thx1138 - 04/12/24 02:37 PM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5