Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion How do you define "trying" to a first grader?

So my (first grade) daughter has many things that come easy to her: large vocabulary, early ability to read, great memory, cognitively puts ideas together well, etc.

Writing and drawing are more difficult. She's really bad. The other day her art teacher taught her how to draw a house, you know a square with a triangle roof. And it's not like she hasn't been taught before. Everything she draws looks like scribbles. And she doesn't mind. She has stories for them. I don't know whether it is because she starts with an idea too big to draw or if she gets the idea in order to avoid drawing. What I do know is that her motor planning is much worse than motor skills (which are bad). She's slow. She takes many repetitions to learn to draw/write correctly. Way more than any reasonable teacher can offer consistently in a class of 26. She sees an OT who takes things slowly for her. There's no work on letter or numbers with her there. They're working on core strength, task switching and coordination.

She's a big people pleaser, gets embarrassed easily, has perfectionist tendencies, and has had really bad experiences in school because she is seen as poorly behaved in these areas where she struggles (too slow=not following directions, drawing avoidance=not following rules, etc.) She does have an excellent teacher this year, but she still hasn't put the past behind her.

But she needs to TRY harder at this writing and drawing stuff. She really does. But there is so much bad experience and negativity wrapped up in all of it that I feel like I am walking on eggshells. At the same time, I don't want her to try to be perfect. That's a big monster to beat too.

So how do you define "trying hard" to a seven year old who doesn't seem to know what it means while making her feel positive about herself and while not demanding perfection?

Is there a way to show her what "achievement" looks like while keeping my hands off her work and letting her be her own person? She's not good at knowing what people want and then giving them that. She just does her own thing, which is good. And not good.

Any strategies or ideas?

Thanks!

Your DD sounds very similar to my DS7. Cognitively very bright, voracious reader... but writing very difficult and perfectionistic which causes him to avoid tasks that are hard. He doesn't like when I correct him as I am being too hard and expecting perfection (according to him). He was seeing a private OT for core strength and motor planning, and I wasn't really seeing a difference. We switched him to a group handwriting session at the same OT clinic, and it helped quite a bit with him forming his letters. Still not great writing, but there was improvement.

What made the biggest difference for him was this summer he started working one-on-one with a learning specialist on writing - not handwriting in forming letters better, but in just writing. Getting his ideas down on paper. We saw a lot of progress in a short time with her, and yesterday on the way to school he said they are doing more writing in school this year and it is easier for him. I asked why, and he said all the work over the summer. I did a little dance of joy in my head! He still has a long way to go, but there is definite progress. I think the key to this was a person who really got to know him, and she was able (and willing) to modify her approach to meet what he needs. For instance, she saw that his visual-motor integration was causing difficulties for him so she added in games/mazes each week to work on that. She worked on EF skills by creating a list of what they were going to do and giving it to him before they started so he had time to process what the session would be like. She also really pushed him, and during one session he came out crying saying he wasn't going to do it anymore. I think he needed a "push" to see we were really going to hold him to this and he had to do it himself. The next week he protested a little, and the following session it was no problem at all. He went from at the beginning of the summer not being able to write an entire word without stopping and looking around to writing an entire sentence without stopping. He is also more confident about his ability to write, and we will continue to build on this as I think it is also a big stumbling block for him.

I know he needs to work on core strength as well to help with the writing, but we had to prioritize it a bit lower for the time because these other therapies are making a much larger difference for him.

Questions202, I think that "trying" means subtly different things to different people, and fwiw, with my kids, I saw them gradually morph into the academic personalities they were semi-destined to become as they gradually went through elementary school, but not when they were your dd's age. My oldest dd, for instance, is a kid who, in middle school cares tremendously about the quality of her work (to the point of over-perfectionism at times), and she will not stop working on her work until she's happy with it. She also gives 290% (literally) when she participates in sports. I couldn't have predicted *any* of this when she was 7, and I also can't honestly attribute any of her motivation or wanting to try her best to anything I've done as a parent, it's just a piece of who she is internally.

Re your dd, are you sure she *isn't* trying? It sounds like writing and drawing are extremely difficult for her, and I'm guessing they are most likely tiring as well as possibly frustrating. I took a peak back at your previous posts to try to remember what you've said about her before and one line really *really* stuck out to me - you mentioned that her father is dysgraphic. Have you had your dd go through a full eval yet to determine if she's dysgraphic or dyspraxic? I suspect that she is based on what you've written about her writing and drawing struggles. Having that piece of knowledge may help you sharpen your focus as a parent re what achievement "looks like".


Does she have a 504 plan or an IEP? Most students with dysgraphia need at least accommodations so that they are understood at school and so that they can show their full knowledge.


You've said she "seems to know what it means" - so maybe you don't need to define it. Think about how difficult it may be to have to work extra hard and put in extra time (with OT etc) to do simple things that most other students do easily. I'm guessing she's already trying really *really* hard.


What type of achievement are you looking for? Neat drawings and handwriting? A lot of words output when she's writing? Something else? It's really important to understand the parameters she's working with in context so that a) you aren't judging her ability to achieve something that's beyond her reach and b) so that she's able to *show* you what she really is achieving. For instance, if handwriting is a struggle and you're concerned the stories she writes are not long enough, detailed enough, she's stopping short of what she might tell you verbally - give her an accommodation (scribe, keyboarding, whatever) that bypasses handwriting so she can show you her full knowledge. From another perspective, look at what she is *already* achieving and let her see what she's done in the light of achievement vs not enough - I'm thinking specifically of her handwriting and drawing here. Not every child is going to be a Picasso. If I know my child is putting in their best effort, I see that as an achievement in and of itself, rather than worrying about how good the final product looks.

It's tricky with young children who have potential LDs… they often look like they are not trying when really they *can't*, plus they will sometimes shut down and stop trying because they've continually gotten the message internally that they can't.

Hang in there!

polarbear

This.

Trying is not an externally knowable/measurable thing. For 2Es it's very tricky to see sometimes.

We don't talk about trying. We talk about practicing. "Oh, yes, that's hard for you, but with more practice it may become easier." "Let's practice that one a few more times, and then take a break." Trying to take the pressure off the result while noting that some things are hard to learn and simply require practicing.

I will also say that for some kids, some tasks will NOT improve with practice (say, the handwriting of a dysgraphic child)-- and it's really important not to imply that the child is not trying, when they really have tried and are experiencing a sense of defeat and frustration. That's demoralizing.

If a good eval has shown that improvement isn't likely via practice, we look for workarounds: typing instead of writing, drawing using electronic tools vs. by hand.

If you haven't already read things about fixed vs growth mindset, e.g. Mindset or (more academic) Self-theories by Carol Dweck, I would really strongly recommend doing so. In order to know that it's sensible to try, you have to understand that doing so will make a difference - and if there's a gulf between areas where learning happens so fast that you hardly notice, and other areas where it happens so slowly it looks as though nothing is happening, this is not at all intuitive. It needs to be taught and demonstrated to be true.

My DS hit this with piano, which was the first thing he'd really had to struggle with. What helped: practising every day, with one-one support, for a decent chunk of time; focusing more on the practice habit than the improvement, i.e. audible improvement was great, but I tried not to let him expect it every day or feel he'd failed if it didn't happen. In fact, what happened often was that he'd have a particularly frustrating day in which it felt as though nothing was getting any better, and then in the next day's practice that thing would "magically" get better; we learned to say "your subconscious was working on that!" and then "your subconscious needs to get working on that, give it the practice it can work on" since that seemed to be a decent model of what was happening.

It was a struggle! (And DS shared several characteristics with your DD at that age - in fact his teacher used the "walking on eggshells" phrase to us to describe it.) But it did get easier.

The thing I think was really helpful about piano as arena for this learning, which might not be automatic in the areas your DD needs to work on, was that he really was working at the very same set of movements every day for a week or two. That made it very obvious when he was improving. With writing/drawing, it might be harder to see an improvement; perhaps you might need to manufacture a stable task she could do every day for a while, and that could be varied and made harder over time, specifically so that she could see improvement?

I'd also say: if she likes to draw things that look like scribbles and tell stories about them, make sure she gets opportunities to do that, too.

Thanks guys.

Polarbear: She is dyspraxic. We have not had her tested for dysgraphia yet. Her handwriting looks okay (my husband's does not), but she really freaks out unless she is copying something that someone else wrote down. (That doesn't mean she can't do it, it just means she freaks out.) She has a much more difficult time drawing and then writing in things like Venn Diagrams or those spiderweb looking charts they make. Her mind just can't organize information that way. She has trouble reading graphic novels too, doing directionally organized things (turning paper horizontally when requested) and missed 50% of following instructions subtest on the Woodcock Johnson while getting all questions in all other listening categories correct. I don't know what that means, but it means something.

We were waiting to test her, but she still doesn't seem to have enough actual handwriting instruction to make us rule out the fact that she just hasn't learned to write while struggling with dyspraxia.

I asked last year and they said they formally teach handwriting in first grade, and I just emailed her teacher to ask when it gets taught (no answer yet), but I'm not sure when it does or if there is enough of it for a dyspraxic kid.

So that's what I'm waiting for. Some signal to say go get the next test, go get the 509. The school has said to wait for formal handwriting instruction, but she's been writing and developing bad habits for two years now, should we just move forward on our own? After all, we didn't wait for formal math instruction or reading instruction to introduce those things. But then again, she welcomed that. She'll read and play math games for fun all day long, but writing and drawing aren't activities she wants to "afterschool" in, if you know what I mean.

The school administration has really been on board with her, and I trust the admin (counselor and academic coordinator). I feel like they were really responsive. Her counselor likes her and helped her get through a less than ideal teacher/student match last year. They want to wait on the 509. The put her with a great teacher. They want to see what they can do informally and just want her teacher to get to know her first and I DO trust this teacher. It's just frustrating and then there's what the school sees as doing well (passing) and what meeting your potential is, something neither my husband nor I experienced until grad school for similar reasons. We don't want that for her. Loving school, having school not love you back and then just assuming that means school isn't for you really sucks if it actually IS for you.

She definitely "hit the shut down and stop trying because they've continually gotten the message internally that they can't" stage. That happened a long time ago, before she was developmentally ready to write. She's still stuck in it. But I have to get her past that. And if she's going to get past that, she's going to have to work really hard for it. That means trying in a way I don't think she's tried before and probably means working harder than her friends have to.

Does this seem like I'm just losing patience or should I be doing something now, even if the school's position (knowledgeable people who I believe care) think waiting is best? It would be easy to be all tigermom about it, and say, "here is trying: don't leave this table until you have colored in x all the way." That is what her kindergarten teacher did and that doesn't work for her. But saying "oh, great job sugarmuffin that scribble DOES look like a cookie!" isn't going to help her either.

Edited to say that there are responses between the time it took me to read Polarbear's post and write this. But I did hear them :-)

We've been continuously selling the practice angle with DS.

Personally I found it insulting as child to be told to try harder to do something I was already trying twice as hard at as the next kid. Specifically regarding handwriting where trying even harder meant increased hand pain. On the same token, I hated being an example in math where other kids were told to work hard like me, when it was at base a complete lie. The only effort in grade level math was the handwriting component.

Might also consider that the scribbling is an ego cover where she is acutely aware of how far apart her best effort is from what she would like it to be... self-recrimination may be less healthy than scribbling.

We are doodlers. We doodle. Got the idea from Mo Willems who is also a doodler. We put butcher paper placemats on the table at mealtimes a la Willems (though lately we have been forgetful) and let the kids (and grownups!) doodle. It is not compulsory or mandatory or required in any way. It is good way to get practice writing in a fun free form kind of way.

I would encourage you to make sure that the school is taking data now on her handwriting (and all other aspects of writing) development. From the school's perspective, I can see that they feel slightly reluctant to start the formal eval process when she hasn't received formal instruction. But I think what you've described from her and her family history strongly suggest that her handwriting development (and overall written expression) trajectory is not going to be in line with her cognition, or even with normative expectations (particularly for fluency). If they begin taking data now (an easy one would be one-minute alphabet writing probes--start with the letter "a" and write as much of the alphabet as you can in one minute; score the total number of correctly-written letters), on, say a biweekly basis, and track her progress as instruction begins, they should be able to see that her alphabet writing fluency trendline is not as steep as would be expected for a child her age. If they don't have class/grade-wide data/norms on this, you can get a quick & dirty comparison by picking three or four teacher-identified "typical" students from her class and doing this one-minute probe with them each time. (It should be the same students every time, though.) Ideally, they should actually be doing something like this with all the students, as part of a good RTI process for writing, but few schools do. Even if they don't, you could do it yourself, as a means of documenting her rate of growth, with or without normative comparisons.

Here's a link to a pdf on handwriting/written expression standards:

https://www.hw21summit.com/media/zb/hw21/Written-Language_ProductionStandards.pdf

Norms from interventioncentral on 4-minute writing probes grade 1-6, using grade-level writing prompts (search interventioncentral):

http://www.interventioncentral.org/...tfy_Writing_Difficulties_NORMS_Table.pdf

We also continuously "sell" the concept of practice. I'm not sure the message sunk in yet with my kids (12 and 8) for things that don't come easily, though we are seeing it seep into the corners of their mentality for easier tasks.

One thing that we as parents try to keep in the forefront of our minds is that there's a big difference between "can't" and "won't," even if they tend to look the same to an observer.

We spent a lot of years being convinced by teachers that my older child was just lazy and sloppy. It affected our mindset about her. After all, she *could* neaten things up when she brought the full force of her brain to the singular task of writing. Indeed, she simply *could not* focus on the writing and the content at the same time. It was not a matter of choice, practice, or determination.

Even with that perspective, we're finding that we're still feeling ourselves slip into this mindset with our son, whose development is looking eerily similar to his sister's.

For the 504/IEP eval- there are many measures out there for prewriting skills. If writing hasn't been taught yet, the prewriting skills still need to be in place to learn the letter formation. Respond with a request for that testing. You have the dyspraxia diagnosis already, so there is reason to take *preventative* action before developing a "I can't" attitude towards learning.

Yes, I agree with alot of what has been said up above. I would drop the "trying" thing because she probably is trying, but with a 2e kid, simply trying isn't necessarily going to get it done. And you don't want to her start thinking, "I'm already trying as hard as I can and it's not good enough, so why bother?"

I think I would also formally request (in writing) an evaluation. Having a great teacher is a great start, but even a great teacher isn't going to cure her of an actual disability. It sounds like her difficulty is not just in handwriting, if she's also having trouble with using organizers, reading graphic novels, and all that. I don't see how any of that will be solved by formal handwriting instruction or just having a great teacher.

Also, have she had a vision evaluation? Like by a pediatric optometrist? I would consider that, if you haven't tried it already.

aeh, for the CBM assessmnet, what are they asked to write? Or is it copying?

For the CBM writing assessments, they get a writing prompt, which they complete with a brief story or personal narrative. It is not copying, but original writing. ("One day I was walking on the beach, when I found a bottle. There was something in it. When I opened the bottle...").

This pdf explains how to administer and score a 4-minute writing assessment:

http://www.jimwrightonline.com/pdfdocs/cbmresources/cbmdirections/cbmwrit.pdf

This page has a few comments about writing probes, and a form for making prompts, including some clickable pre-made prompts (in the sidebar):

http://www.interventioncentral.org/teacher-resources/curriculum-based-measurement-probes-writing

The writing assessments on the PAL-II include both copying (sentence and paragraph) and composition. If you're going for a strong school assessment, this would be best, but if you think you're going to have to document on your own, then collect the CBM probe data.

Thanks for the links/explanation. I don't know if DD has done anything in school so far this year (other than math assessments), and I don't know how much of her issues with writing last year were behavioral/anxiety or if she is really behind. I think I'll try having her write and timing her, however what she does at home (or one on one with an assessor) may be completely different than what she does in class. It's the same with DS. He writes fine with the spec. ed teacher, but could end up doing nothing in class. It depends on whether he likes the topic or if he spaces out.

I don't know your ds, so I maybe it is this, but if there's an LD at play the difference in output between the classroom and working with the SPED teacher might be due to something completely different from either not liking the topic or simply spacing out. For instance, simply working one on one could mean his anxiety over working on a frustrating subject is significantly reduced. The SPED teacher may also be giving him more specific or structured directions, she may be prompting him when he's stuck etc.

I'd also dig a bit to determine what's happening when he does "space out" - this happened a lot with my son - or what looked like spacing out - was because he was lost and didn't know what to do. When you think your ds doesn't like a topic or isn't interested in it, look closely at the type of topic - is it writing on a topic that he has knowledge of, or is it an open-ended question about something that may require him to organize new thoughts in his head?

polarbear

ps - when our ds was in early elementary, part of what made it difficult to recognize that he had an LD related to written expression was the nature of how writing was approached in the classroom - each assignment was different in some way from the previous assignment, so it wasn't easy to see ds was having difficulty with x/y/z but was able to accomplish a/b/c - because one day the class was told to write about x using y method, the next day they'd be writing an a story based on b method etc. Because he could do a/b/c but not x/y/z, it looked like there were days he was trying and days he was just spacing out or not trying. Plus many young children don't come out and say "I can't do this because ___" - they don't know why they can't do it or why it's tough. So the communication that they "can't" do it or it's tough is coming through staring out into space, losing focus, paying attention to other things, acting out, whatever - basically they are communicating in a way that's easily mistaken for lack of interest or lack of motivation etc.

polarbear, thanks for the info. He has a history of being unmotivated with various things so it's hard to tell. The second things get a little bit challenging he doesn't want to put in the effort. Last year at this time his writing was ridiculous, but the second we moved him to a new school it looked 300 percent better, because he was trying harder (for whatever reason). Then when we tried a trial of ritalin it improved even more and he sped up a lot (according to his last teacher). He actually met his writing "goal" on the IEP but not the OT goal so they will continue to pull him for writing. He has a new IEP manager (who is also a spec. ed teacher who will be working on writing with him) and I told her that there is probably a large discrepancy between what he will do with her when he is pulled, and what he does in the classroom when he's on his own. She said she'd keep an eye on it and it might make more sense for spec. ed to go into class rather than pull him. I'm actually more worried about DD and her writing so maybe this spec. ed teacher can help me as well--I'm just waiting to see if her teachers communicate with me about issues and what they say. Then I'll probably have to request an eval depending on what they tell me. I suspect her issues are a combination of her ADHD, handwriting issues, not being able to organize thoughts, anxiety, perfectionism, and plain old stubborness.