Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Working with school? What to ask for???

Hi all! So DS6 was finally tested this summer (WISC and WIAT) and as the day for the start of 1st grade draws near, I am getting nervous. I do not even know how/when to approach the school/teacher or what to ask for. The school has no formal gifted program until 3rd grade and enrichment has been cut back due to resources going to support students who need to meet the standards of "the Common Core." DS's tester told me that 1st grade would be "a waste of time" for him (not something a parent wishes to hear right before the start of school!).

DS clearly needs something different, but I am not sure how to approach the school or new teacher.

DS is the younger sibling of a DYS who was tested to see if he might be able to participate in DYS, too (especially because the lack of a gifted program for the next couple of years at school). We have not yet applied (final pieces of application might be ready by end of month), but it takes a while, even if accepted, to get everything in place. Also, I still need to work with the school.

Does anyone have any advice on the best way to approach the school or teacher? What was most effective for you and your DC?

TIA!

1) How to approach the school would be according to the methods described in advocacy resources. In a nutshell, you may wish to visit the Davidson Database and view the collected advocacy resources including the guidebook. Advocacy resources and meeting prep are frequently requested and shared in posts on the forums.

When to approach the school? When you have fully prepared to advocate. Note that some schools express a desire to observe children for the first 6 weeks or so of the school year, making their own observations prior to meeting with parents to discuss possible strategies, such as differentiation.

2) What to ask for may be determined by processing the information gleaned from your State laws (often found online), your school or district policy & practice statements (often found online), and your child's strengths compared with grade level end-of-year learning objectives and possibly above level end-of-year learning objectives as well. Print collected information and save it, as laws/policy/practice and also your DC's achievements will change over time. One way to save and organize information is to hole-punch and place in a ring binder, possibly tabbed by year... as you may have many years of advocacy ahead.

As your tester seems to have rendered a professional opinion, is this an indication that s/he may be familiar with advocacy and/or accompany client parents to advocacy meetings with schools?

I wish I had some good advice, but it was difficult with DS last year when he was in first grade. It really depends on the school/teacher and how receptive they are to your concerns. I tried to be very cordial/friendly, and make any requests I had in a non-aggressive way (for instance I'd state that I know it's difficult for teachers to spend a lot of time with a child one on one so let's think together about possible solutions...that type of thing), but the teacher just didn't want to do anything. I think her underlying attitude toward gifted kids is that they are already ahead, just let them have a good time and be kids. She couldn't grasp how bored these kids are and how damaging it is for them to do work that is way too easy. When we switched schools, I didn't ask much of the teacher, but I'm sure she put two and two together and figured out why we had left the old school, so she did her best to meet DS's needs. Unlike the other teacher, she understood that it would be a waste of time for him to do the first grade curriculum. I didn't need to go through a speech to convince her of that, she simply observed him and began to test him to see what level he was at, and within a day it was clear to her.
Do you know who his teacher will be? Maybe at "back to school night" or whatever you have there, mention that you would like to talk briefly about your DS's needs and if there is a time you could pop in for an informal chat. Mention that you have test results and you are concerned about the regular curriculum and how it will help your DS progress. Then see how she responds before figuring out next moves.

I have the same concerns for the fall (second grade) but luckily DS's first grade teacher (the good one) went and talked to his new teacher and outright said that he will need advanced work, and gave examples of things that she had been working on with him. That spared me having to go in myself and make a speech about how smart I think my kid is. The new teacher told me afterwards he probably needs to have an individualized plan and work at his own pace. She was going to talk to some people over the summer and try to figure out how to make it work. If that fails, then we can do an official grade acceleration for math. Going to third grade for math would still be too easy for him, but it's better than nothing. So far so good, but we'll see how it all plays out!

Given there is a program in 3rd, does the school have a gifted coordinator? I would start with them. Ours was a ton of help when DS was in first, and she proposed his skipping second which got him into the full gifted program early. If the school doesn't have one, then hopefully your district does. Basically, try to start with the person in the system who should understand gifted.

Sounds like you had a great experience getting your child's needs met. Wish it always worked that way! It will be a great day when parents do not need to advocate for their children and the education system readily supports the development of gifted children at their appropriate curriculum level and pace.

For others considering acceleration, the Iowa Acceleration Scale (IAS) is the gold standard for whole-grade acceleration. Other forms of acceleration are discussed in resources available on the Davidson Database, including here and here.

Thanks, blackcat - I know I've said before that we'd love your DS's teacher here ...but SERIOUSLY, she sounds amazing! I love that she's already talked to your DS's NEW teacher!!!

So part of my concern is this: typically, there is NO differentiation in math in 1st (it starts in 2nd). This was less of a problem for DD when she was in 1st, because she was more interested in reading. Also, they USED to have a reading specialist work with the advanced 1st grade readers, and I hear that this no longer happens. DS had reading and math scores at or near the ceiling on the WIAT, and I am thinking he probably needs SERIOUS differentiation in both to learn anything new. With the "changes" since DD was in 1st, I just have this sinking feeling that DS's experience could be a very, very poor fit. Much will depend on the teacher, I suppose (DD had an AMAZING 1st grade teacher - for her; DS is a completely different personality). We should learn who the teacher is soon. "In class differentiation" seems difficult to impossible for most teachers, though - even with the best intentions. In our experience, differentiation by creating different classes of learners with their own teachers (as happens in older grades) is MUCH more effective.

Actually, if they could just send him to 2nd for reading and math, that could solve many of our problems - but I've NEVER heard of that happening at the school. Also, I'm assuming that this could create a logistical nightmare for the teachers. DS is NOT one of the older children in his grade, and he can be very shy.

Zen, the school DS attends has no gifted coordinator. The gifted program and the 3rd grade are at a different school in the district. I had not thought of starting at the district level, but would the school be upset by that? I am trying to step on as few toes as possible.

Is there a gifted coordinator for the district? That is how it is supposed to work here, although I found her top priority seemed to be the kids in the school which she was working out of (the school with the magnet), but she was supposed to be working with all schools. In kindergarten it was a different person (than last year) and at the very beginning of the year I emailed her and described the situation with DS. She actually emailed back (gasp--i have had major problems with getting people in the district to respond to emails), and told me she would meet with his teacher. She gave the K teacher books and ideas of things to do. It was no official plan, and I don't really think it made a huge difference, but at least I felt like I had someone who was working for us/DS. Our district has now completely gotten rid of this position, which is really too bad.

It is the same here with NO differentiation for math. You do the district curriculum at the same pace as everyone else no matter what level you are. DD was in the "cluster" last year which meant she was given "enrichment packets" for math, but it did not involve any advanced calculations or moving ahead in the curriclum, it was basically logic word problems. She was still stuck doing the regular math curriculum. This will (supposedly) change next year in the magnet, but I feel for kids who are still not old enough (like DS) and those who are, but did not make their strict cut-offs and are stuck in the regular classrooms. DS's new second grade teacher told me that she ability groups for math and I was surprised, because I had never heard of anyone in this district doing that before. She said she is giving the advanced group enrichment stuff that is a couple grade levels ahead. Hopefully whatever she is doing it is better than what DD's teacher was doing last year with the cluster, which really didn't amount to much. There is acutally a "name" to what she is giving them, but I can't recall it at the moment. We pretty much decided it would probably still be inadequate for DS. I'm not sure how she is going to do an individualized plan for him...she may attempt to do what his teacher was doing last year, even though it was difficult. One thing I suggested was Khan Academy in addition to other work she comes up with based on above-level testing.

I have been reading a great deal - I have a copy of the IAS, and although I probably COULD argue for a whole grade skip (and make the case that he is an excellent candidate), this would be my LAST choice option (if there were absolutely no better alternatives). I have family members who have been skipped (they are now adults) and they do not reflect positively on the social experience (academically, they were fine). I am admittedly biased by my family here.

This will be DS's first "full day" year of school. I would like him to be expected to act like the newly turned 6-year-old that he is - not a 7 or 8 year old (lots of hold-backs in our area, and skipping a grade might place him with boys MUCH older on average), KWIM? He is extremely well-behaved, but sensitive.

I guess I'm realizing that I'd prefer subject acceleration over a full grade skip. I'd like him to do gym and even writing with his first grade class (his handwriting looks like it belongs to a 1st grade boy - although the content that accompanies the immature handwriting is hilarious, because it is pretty advanced). Still, this might be a very tough thing for the school to do.

blackcat - we have some personnel changes going on in the district, but there does NOT appear to be one coordinator! How do you feel that the "enrichment packets" are working? The fear that I'd have with that is a lack of actual instruction from the teacher during the school year. Although DS is pretty compliant, I'd like for him, as a first grader, to have a TEACHER TEACHING him what he needs to learn next, than being expected to learn on his own, KWIM?

If he was sent up for math to second - there IS differentiation. If he worked with the higher second graders, it actually might actually not be a poor fit at all. I think I face an uphill battle with asking for any of this, though.

Did anyone actually use their outside test scores with their schools and have some success with them? The school will probably think that I am a horrible Tiger Mom for having him tested in the first place, but I feel somewhat vindicated by the scores themselves (he tested well). They at least seem more objective than me simply telling them, "mommy thinks her DS is very bright."

I am no good at this! Ugh!

I don't remember: is homeschooling an option? I ask because, even though we've been fairly fortunate, knowing that we had that as a fallback made it psychologically much easier in any discussion. Negotiating a plan A without a plan B often forces up front compromises.

Zen, I was actually fantasizing about resuming my career (which is not teaching, BTW) a bit this year, with DS in school. I've thoroughly enjoyed being with my DC before they started full-time school(and have been fortunate to be able to), but I was thinking of taking on some actual paying work.

Still, I've been feeling pretty torn about doing that, because I feel as though my DC still need my attention (even if just with afterschooling), so they can make some progress this year. It is not a great feeling.

Knowing the local policies/practices comes into play. Beyond being a tool useful for considering a full grade skip, some schools may use the IAS to prepare a complete record of a student's scores and "thoroughly discuss the case and to consider other curricular options and recommendations for the student." (Manual page 34)

Local policies/practices come into play. The following is a generic answer discussing the role of testing at a high level and not pertinent to a particular school or district. The purpose is to provide background information only.

1) Outside test results may be helpful supplemental information in that they may indicate high ability and/or achievement.

2) To the degree that extensive prep materials may exist for some tests, some schools/districts may not accept outside testing but rather will conduct their own testing/assessment, often with multiple instruments, and check for an indication of fairly consistent range of performance among tests, possibly also cross-checking test results with demonstrated ability/achievement in the classroom.

3) The potential shown by most typical outside or school-administered ability/achievement testing does not necessarily translate directly to curriculum placement or pacing. Tests such as MAP and/or school end-of-year tests may be more indicative of curriculum placement and pacing.

4) The supplemental role of typical ability/achievement tests is then one of suggesting that the child has the intellectual capacity to continue to flourish with advanced academics over time. That said, many life occurrences and events may impact learning and specifically academic progress. Similar to the disclaimer on many financial investments, "past performance does not guarantee future results".

The school will undoubtedly do its own testing, in time, and that will probably be a GOOD thing for DS. The problem is, as we've learned, as long as a DC is in the 99th percentile for their grade, the attitude is mainly "what is the problem?" (even if that 99 percentile means no growth for that individual). (Sigh).

I don't think the "enrichment packets" that DD's teacher had them do went well at all. She basically expected them to do it on their own, and if they finally handed it in with a wrong answer, she would write NO, TRY AGAIN (or something along those lines). There were some actual concepts in there that DD had never been actually taught, like converting units of measurement, leading to extreme frustration because there was no instruction on these advanced concepts. The teacher gave them each a calculator to solve the problem of them not knowing how to do long division with decimals (or whatever). I think it was good she did not make them sit through every single class lesson, and had them do these packets instead, but at a certain point DD just gave up and stopped working on them. She spent ridiculous amounts of time trying to figure out the answers to things, and if she had gotten some help, she could have whipped through it in a fraction of the amount of time. I had volunteered to go in and pull out these kids once per week but was basically ignored. Frustrating. I don't know how DS's teacher normally does it...whether she meets with the "enriched" group as a group and actually instructs/help. If so, then it may work a lot better. The problem was that DD's teacher had all of the low-level kids in that class as well, and guess who the priority was.

Check and see if your district has a policy about subject acceleration. DS scored 98-99th percent accurate on the district tests for second grade math, meeting their policy, but I don't really see it as a decent long-term solution because the pace will still be slow. But I will do that if the teacher is unable to differentiate apppriately for him. I'm not sure if our district has a reading acceleration policy. I know they used to but if a child meets the criteria for both reading and math acceleration they prefer the child do a whole grade skip. That's what I was told when DD was grade accelerated (I would have preferred she stayed in the same grade, and went to the next higher grade for reading and math only--but they did not like that idea). In terms of scheduling, it can be a nightmare to do subject accelerations. Even if they get it to work one year, it might not work the next year. DS's principal told me he would align the schedules of second and third grade math for next year, so that there is at least one third grade teacher that can take him for math if we opt to go that route. Usually they want to plan this out ahead of time, so if you think that's something you want to do, get on the phone with the principal as soon as you can.

In terms of whole grade acceleration, I wouldn't rule it out. There are definite negatives/risks but DD adjusted very well and I can't imagine how bored/miserable she would have been if we hadn't accelerated her.

Oh, blackcat, your poor DD!!! How frustrating!!! That just sounds, please forgive me, like poor (or absent???) instruction. Just because a kiddo is bright, they should not be left to teach themselves - just terrible!

Yes, I think flexibility is key.

Would you believe that I have LOOKED for the local policy on acceleration - and I see NADA, ZIP, nothing.

I think its fair to say that I have what might even be an irrational fear of whole-grade acceleration (caused by my family - LOL). To be fair, by DC are both rather young for grade, so right now, they just seem like BABIES next to the kiddos a grade up! IT's not that I fear for them keeping up with the school work, it's just having them "fit in" socially without always feeling like they are the kid brother or sister that no one wants hanging around. Also, I think DH is very opposed to the idea. I wouldn't rule it out, but I also admit that reading about some of the older kiddos around here with similar LOG, a single grade acceleration is not always adequate (yes, I know - they are all different), and that leaves me feeling very unsettled about it all. I just want my DC to learn AND be happy, KWIM?

1) Agreed. In preparing for advocacy, you may wish to gather and have information available regarding the problems presented by lack of academic/intellectual growth, in the event that comes up in the meeting discussion.
2) Are you indicating that you may prefer to advocate without revealing your DC's outside test scores (which indicate 99th percentile)? If not revealing test scores, what would be the basis for your advocacy, demonstrating advanced ability/achievement?

Honestly, I am trying to figure out what would be best for DS - me being silent for a while (keeping the test scores private for now), and letting THEM try to figure it out/do their own testing (while applying to DYS on my own for an added resource); OR, sharing the scores and see what we can do as a team to ensure DS makes some academic progress this year.

DD9 had no testing (other than achievement testing) until 3rd grade. She survived, but it was not optimal and she is a different (much louder) child. After I had her tested last year, the only thing I regretted was that I had not done it sooner.

Yes, it can be hard to figure out,and you don't have a crystal ball so you don't know how it would go. DD was close to the cut-off and old for her grade, otherwise I would have had more reservations about it. She is now with some kids who are 18+ months older,it is unsettling thinking about high school and her being 16 or 17 surrounded by 18-19 year old boys. And now that she is going into the magnet, I worry about the fact that she will be with kids who are older and also highly gifted...it may be hard for her to keep up. But at the time we accelerated her I had to think about what she needed then, not what MIGHT happen 3 years down the road. I had no idea if she would even have the scores for the magnet.

Yes, not every school may have a policy on acceleration, but most may have a policy/practice statement for gifted. Resources and information about creating an acceleration policy is available from the Institute for Research and Policy on Acceleration (IRPA).

Interestingly, the schools do have a policy suggesting that "students need their giftedness recognized as soon as it is demonstrated."

Great policy, but I'm not sure that our school will implement the policy, if that makes sense?

In reading this snippet out of context, it seems to indicate a policy of identifying (recognizing) giftedness based on demonstrated ability/achievement in the classroom.

Once "recognized", does the policy go on to list ways in which the student's giftedness will be supported, nurtured, developed? Is there a related practice statement?

I think DS did (in K) and will continue to demonstrate his ability in the classroom, but part of the problem here will be the level to which he can demonstrate. That is, if he is only ASKED to demonstrate to 1st grade level (in a typical 1st grade classroom), but the WIAT places his abilities from those of an average 4th grade through over 12th grader (yes, I realize that I need to take AE and GEs with a grain of salt), CAN he demonstrate his full abilities? I am guessing that he cannot. I am guessing we run into the "but he's at the 99th percentile" (for grade) scenario again.

Unfortunately, the policy then goes onto describe the current practices described earlier in the thread with the 3rd grade identification. Interestingly, the practices for K-2 still discuss the use of enrichment, but as I've mentioned earlier - from what other parents have told me, this enrichment resource is now being diverted towards the "Common Core." The policy listed does not mention this. Also, NOTHING is mentioned about math.

In speaking with the teacher/school/district, you may wish to point this out in light of their policy statement which you quoted earlier.

If that comes up, some may say a stock response is to share the problems inherent in lack of academic/intellectual growth, remaining focused on what can be done to define and meet your child's academic needs in the classroom.

You may wish to explore with the teacher/school/district, what enrichment their policy alludes to. As long as the current, published policy makes these statements, parents may hold the teacher/school/district accountable to abide by them. If you have reason to believe the policy and practice statements may be changing, you may wish to print the current statements as these help define the environment in which advocacy takes place.

Wishing you all the best as you decide whether to proceed.

Thank you, everyone!!!

I'll think at this point, I'm going to wait and see who the teacher is, and will go from there. I am kind of hoping that DS's K teacher DID talk to the 1st grade teacher (blackcat, again - that is so GREAT that your did this!!!), because I think by the end of K - the teacher really understood him. The school does have some excellent teachers.

I would prefer to NOT have to share test scores, really. On the other hand, if the school were to actually read and understand them, I think they might understand my concern about the upcoming year. I am a bit torn on this one, and I am actually favoring staying quiet - at least for a while - right now.

Again, thank you!!!

Sending you a PM...