Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What is an "honors" course?

I didn't understand the comment about choosing between honors and AP. From what I see, all the high school courses (and some middle school courses) have honors versions, but AP courses only appear at the end of the sequence. So as you move through the sequence you choose regular or honors. Then if you get far enough you can take an AP course. I don't see honors or AP as a choice that arises.

Yes, but.... this is a result of the phenomenon that Cookie and I are talking about. That is, more "above average, but not all that bright, even" students are being shuffled into college prep (and "Honors" coursework)-- and also into AP coursework.

When my DD entered high school, I was frankly stunned to discover that she was (evidently) expected to complete a year of "honors" US History as preparation for the AP US History course. When I questioned this sort of arrangement-- that is, that AP coursework frequently had "prerequisite" coursework associated with it-- namely, a year of the "honors" course...

I was told in no uncertain terms that this was a set of prerequisites that were intended for-- um-- less intrinsically ABLE students, shall we say. They quickly reassured me that in no way was this prerequisite business intended to apply to students like my DD-- and it didn't.

Frankly, my DD took AP coursework without the prerequisites in most instances, and suffered not at all for it, tyvm. In the one instance that she HAD in fact completed the "prerequisite" course, she found the AP course laughably easy-- to the point of triviality, almost. I'm very glad that she didn't have to endure that kind of repetition more than once.

We also found that course construction was significantly better than standard providers in the AP coursework, and textbooks were often better too. I've heard the same thing from both Connections and K12 families, so I suspect that it is quite common in virtual settings.

The AP courses are more or less standardized externally by College Board, as well-- so you definitely have a better idea going into those just what you're getting out of them. Yes, the test-prep aspects are a major irritant, but the courses themselves have been at a higher level (and more coherent, frankly) than the Honors versions that my daughter has experienced, which are FAR more dependent upon good teaching to work well.

When I was in high school (80s), honors courses were completely different from other courses. Thus, in Honors English, we read more novels and other books that were not generally the same ones the other kids read, and we were expected to write more. So, in 9th grade, we read Great Expectations, The Count of Monte Cristo, and Julius Caesar (this list is not exhaustive). We had to write annual term papers starting in 10th grade (20 pages minimum), as well as shorter papers. That kind of thing. Our books were generally harder to read than the non-Honors material. These courses weren't prerequisites for AP courses. They were completely different courses for more capable students.

Also, at that time, in the two high schools I attended, there was no such thing as "Honors Algebra II" and "Algebra II." Either you took Algebra 2 or you didn't, and the course resembled what's called "Honors" today.

I think it's fine that schools offer easier math classes. What I don't like is that the easier courses are still accepted as being real algebra 2, which they aren't.

Which reminds me: my math professor sibling observes that precalculus as a course exists only because of the lack of rigor in alg II/trig courses, as there is no additional material required to access calculus. This sounds like a related effect to the dumbing down of alg II courses.

Wow. I'd heard someone mention that before, and I'm curious. I'm not from the USA, and my kids are young, so I don't know much about these courses other than their names. I don't want my kids to spend an extra year on a nothing course (or to need to do it due to weakened earlier courses).

On the other hand AoPS has not only a precalc course, but also an Algebra 3, course in their course sequence, and they claim they're not redundant. So I'm confused.

Well, the conventional sequence in high schools in the US is for one year (32-34 weeks, or thereabouts) of coursework as follows:

1 yr Algebra I
1 yr Geometry
1 yr Algebra II
1 yr Precalculus
1 yr Calculus

"College Algebra" is also sometimes rolled into that Precalculus course, and this is often the first time that students see some of the trigonometry that they'll need for advanced calculus topics. For the first portion of calculus, bright students shouldn't NEED anything more than Algebra II.

I have no idea how the scope and sequence compares with AoPS.

Like a previous poster when I was at school we had streaming and that was it. Now I think most intermediate and high schools have a class you can test in to. The problem is if you are 2e or have a weakness in one area and do poorly in one aspect of the test you get nothing. And the classes are extension only so you get interesting busywork rather than academic rigour.

When I was in high school it was...
Algebra I
Geometry
Algebra II
Trig Semester/ Analytical Geometry Semester
Calculus

I started Algebra in 9th grade and ran out of years after Trig/Analytical Geometry and then only needed College Algebra and Statistics in college to get my degree in Psychology.

My PG brother took Algebra and Geometry in the 9th grade (as in 2 different classes of math and the geometry was a gifted section of it) and was able to take AP calculus in 12th grade.

In some districts that have both IB and AP the "honors" program is no longer designated or may be designated as "Gifted" and the weighting may occur for IB and AP. In math the series may be:
Algebra I
Geometry
Algebra 2
Precalculus
IB Mathematics SL/AP Calculus AB (combined course)
IB Mathematics HL
IB Further Math HL (this may be taken as a two year course combined with Math HL)

In our district they also offer AP stats, AP Calculus, and advanced calculus. Other districts offer Differential equations, linear algebra, or calculus II for those going on beyond calculus. Here the "gifted" designation mostly seems used in middle school and generally the courses had more in depth material.

HK, I loved your tips on virtual-school courses. If you have any more experiences to share, especially on improving curriculum, I'd love to hear them. We're in a situation in which some of the Honors courses are quite good out of the starting gate -- someone with time and insight (and a love for the subject matter) designed them, and they're completely different from regular (which I see because my other DC takes some regular, grade-level in some subjects and is accelerated in others). But on occasion we find an Honors course that seems to be what you describe: regular plus more writing and more work. Luckily, the school will enrich/alter curriculum if asked, and they're very open and nice about it. But we have to step forward and ask and it can only help to come in with our own ideas. They have a good population of gifties in a focused program, but they're all different. So I'd love to hear anything that worked for you!

My understanding is "Precalculus" and "Trig Semester/ Analytical Geometry" are roughly the same course just with a different title. The H.S. I went to when I was at that level called it Trig/Pre-Calc.

My son is just completing Algebra II and the last two chapters are trig. Next year Pre-Calculus will include more trig, and other topics to prepare for Calculus. And some beginning Calculus at the end of the end of the year. He will be taking Calculus in 11th grade and he will be far from alone.

As to how it compares to AoPS. There books do not line up with the standard sequences. According to them the Algebra I books is what is covered in Algebra I & most of Algebra II (except the trig) courses.

As for if the AP class is a 2nd class in the subject, at my son's school it totally depends on the subject matter. Math there are prerequisites, one can't take AP Calculus without Pre-Calculus. AP History classes are less straightforward, one doesn't have to take for example US History at the High School level but it's assumed they have taken US History in 8th grade. The AP Language Course is really broken into two years course, Honors American Literature and AP Lit (that covers the English Literature). Thus 10th grade H. English is a requirement for the course. Science is a mixed, AP Chemistry and AP Biology both require a previous high school science course. But other science courses such as AP Physics and AP Environmental Science don't. And there are lots of courses like AP Computer Science and AP Music Theory that have requirements but it can be the first time you have seen the subject.