Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional I need guidance

I'm a long time lurker (even before I signed up), first time poster. I apologize in advance for the length.

My dd is 8 and in second grade, dx'd in 11/13 with adjustment d/o (more anxiety). Started her on Prozac which helped her daily crying at school, but didn't help her behavior at school. Academically, she's been strong, but honestly, I don't think she's been challenged since she started school. I was finally ready to admit she had impulsiveness and hyperactivity a few months later, and in 2/14 we started Concerta. It was my *duh!* moment.

Another health issue my dd deals with is precocious puberty. It was caught last yr at age 6, which was about when her behavior deteriorated in school. I noticed a lot of inattention at home over last summer. The treatment only really helps to slow down the process of puberty. Her endo thinks most of what we are seeing in regards to mental health is the effects of estrogen on a young brain. she is no where near ready to start puberty. I'm not ready for that, either, lol.

I've gone back and forth on the "is she gifted?" issue. I do think she is in some realms (language, reading, creativity, history), and maybe average to above average in others (maths, science). I think it's mostly interest driven. You can show her a picture of a president, and she knows first, middle, and last name. She also knows most of the first ladies, along with random information she's read. I'm a history idiot. She remembers things she's learned once, makes connections on her own, and has a large vocabulary.

On the other hand, I've met some very obviously gifted children, and I have my doubts she is above moderately gifted. I do not care either way, and up until recently, I've just supplemented her craving for learning at home.

Now I'm wondering if the possible giftedness (as well as her adhd/anxiety) is affecting her inability to make friends and keep them. She was crying to me the other night that she has no friends. Unfortunately, her wonderful school last year was a victim to budget cuts and was closed. She's at a new school this year. She does know some kids at this school from last year, and I volunteer as much as I can on my days off from work (I'm a single mom and work full time). I did have an assessment done in 12/13, but she was having a good day that day. He did see some impulsiveness, but he said dd was by far not the most disruptive in class. Not very helpful, in my opinion. I've had her diagnosed via private doctor b/c I know how tight $$ is in our district, and I'm not about to depend on them for a diagnosis. I am in the process of getting dd a 504.

I'm having a hard time determining why dd isn't making friends. There are some mean (angry and sad) kids in her class, but I know dd overreacts when she is overstimulated (we have an OT who has put together a sensory diet for dd...unfortunately, most of the calming things are less possible in a school setting. she verbalizes that she wants to make friends, and she seems perfectly happy with just having one or 2. She's gotten into a pattern of having one friend she is hot and cold with (different child this year from last year). I suspect sometimes dd misreads other children's intentions, overreacts and turns the other children off. Many kids have called her a cry baby from when she was crying daily in the beginning of the school year. Now she reacts more with anger, but it still has the same isolating effect. She does do better one on one.

I'm just trying to figure out the road map. I am taking a new job with better insurance, so I intend to get on a waiting list for a neuropsych. I'd like to have a second opinion on dd's dx's as well as an inventory of her strengths and weaknesses. I'm worried what an increase in workload will do to her. She's very unorganized, and I have to work very hard to keep everything consistent. It doesn't help that her dad and I are divorced, but we get along very well.

She's seen a therapist on the past, and we have an appt in a week and half to start again. She's mostly a talk therapist, and we tried her before the Concerta, but despite "knowing" what dd should do, she just couldn't "do" it, if that makes sense. Perhaps now she has better self control and can implement learned strategies now. What kind of therapy has worked for your kids in the past?

What else should I be doing? I have her signed up to be tested for gifted, but the guidance counselor seems very young and overwhelmed. They use the kbit 2 to screen, and from what i've read, it's a very brief test. If dd is in a mood, I can easily see how that will affect the test results. I certainly do not want to have her be part of a program that is too advanced for her, but I do wonder if a lack of peers is contributing to her problem. She gets very annoyed/frustrated by her same-age mates. She tends to play with older girls, or like a big sister to younger girls. I wish she came with a manual.

Sorry this is so disorganized. Despite the fact my dd was adopted, she and I share the diagnoses of anxiety and adhd. i've been reassured that i didn't "give" her adhd...but i'm sure my anxiety has an effect on her.

Have you observed her in a group of kids? That might give you a better idea of what is going on.

DD is the same age (but grade 3) and hasn't had a hard time making friends, but in second grade in particular there was a lot of drama with the kids (esp. girls). This year she is either in a very nice class, or the kids are all just a bit more mature. She was also on Concerta last year and then Adderall and both of them made her moody as they started to wear off (which seemed to be the middle of the day). Adderall in particular made her kind of a basket case. She does much better with her mood and getting along with people on Daytrana. When she is not medicated at all the other kids tend to irritate her (and/or overstimulate her) a lot which can cause her to lash out. Not great in terms of making/keeping friends although she has always been so social I suspect she would always have friends anyway. If anxiety is combined with ADHD, it could potentially cause a lot more social problems.

Thanks for your response.

Dd does better one on one or in smaller groups. I think it's a mix of sensory and anxiety in the classroom or larger groups. She likes playing with other kids, until there is some sort of disagreement. She either misinterpretes other kids, or she she is very easily annoyed by them (this has been present since before starting meds). I try to spy when I can, but she seemed worse when I volunteered in her classroom earlier in the year.

I'm praying for dd to mature some over the summer. I just wish I knew how to help her.

My DD is 8 and also has ADHD and a lot of anxiety. She tends to have a lot of "friends" even though she doesn't have very good social skills, which I really don't understand at all. Kids either love her or hate her. But with other kids she tends to be very bossy and she isn't very flexible in her play: she really only wants to play what she likes, doesn't want to try new things very often. When we had her last big eval, they thought she simply impulsive enough that she doesn't think enough about what she says, or pay enough attention to what others are saying/doing to properly interpret their behavior. She's really just in her own head much of the time.

Have you tried talking to the teacher about the friend situation? I've found the teacher often has a good insight into social issues within the class. DD also attends a social skills "class" with the special ed teacher several times a week.

I think I would also push the school to recognize and help remediate disorganization at school. If she has a medical diagnosis this might link to, then I would push for accomodations in her 504, or even consider an IEP. DD gets aide time once a week to help her organize her desk and her papers; I really think she should get this every day, but thankfully, she doesn't really have much in the way of homework or anything yet.

It sounds like your dd has three diagnoses that the school may respond to with at least a 504. The ADHD and anxiety Dxs both have implications for organization and social skills, and would warrant a 504 in most settings.

In a larger group of children, she may be having difficulty attending to and reading all of the social cues (factors associated with both ADHD and anxiety), which can be very frustrating. In a 1:1 or small group, there isn't as much data flying around that she has to capture, interpret, and organize, and then manage impulsivity to execute the appropriate response. I imagine she finds it quite exhausting to put all of this together in a larger group of children.

Adults naturally scaffold and structure for children, so it's much easier to interact socially with adults. It's possible that when she knows you are present, she unconsciously expects you to do more scaffolding for her.

What might be helpful for her is to talk through and role-play some skills for reading others emotions, and dealing with common interpersonal conflicts that come up between kids. Practice them in a nonlive setting first, then in sheltered live settings (such as with a sibling or a one-on-one playdate), with coaching and cueing in real-time, and then a (private) balanced review of how the skills were executed or could be improved, and how the situation turned out, after the incident. If this is with a sibling or very understanding peer, (you have to be pretty careful here) it can be helpful to get feedback from the other child as well (you'll have to coach the other child before you start doing this, as well as through the live process, so they are not too brutally honest).

Once she becomes comfortable with the process to this point, you can start asking her to tell you how she was able to apply it independently, and reinforcing her when you observe her applying any part of it independently. I wouldn't work on more than one skill at a time.

An excellent resource for this is Ellen McGinnis's "Skillstreaming the Elementary School Child" (based on the research of the late Dr. Arnold Goldstein). It's designed for small group use, and is pretty much the standard for structured social skills groups in schools.

Thank you all so much! Some great thoughts I've been mulling over.

aeh-she IS exhausted after loud situations that involve a lot of children. She once fell asleep during a field trip, and this child is NEVER tired.

Aufilia-your description of your dd's interactions with friends sound very similar.

blackcat-many teachers, including dd's, have told me the same thing--drama in 2nd grade girls. i always stuck to having boys as friends as they seemed more predictable, so I feel very out of my comfort zone.

I tried like heck to get a 504 with accommodations. Dd qualified for one, but not with accommodations due to her grades (all "O's"). I told them I knew a child who is gifted with a 504 for anxiety. They said they recently changed the qualifications. Very circular reasoning, and I sat there for an hour. Finally they talked me into a behavioral plan with all of the same accommodations for which I was asking.

She did not qualify for gifted; her kbit 2 verbal was 127, but her nonverbal was 105. Is this normal?

The 'friend' issue is really always fascinating to me. I think I have insight to share, but it's hard to explain.

So, we have really analytical brains and great information to share, but it is very tricky sharing it with other people in our relationships. This is where I need to do some more research, but, it seems to me that many people do not really want to hear a gifted person's 'version' of the truth. To others, it sounds too harsh, even though, we are merely communicating.

In a work situation, though, our insights are invaluable, so you will find gifted people doing very well in difficult jobs and feeling very useful, working either for themselves or others, depending on how you view work.

Don't get hung up on having friends the way that other people have friends; by definition, it probably can't be the same. We are hyper-sensitive, so we know all of the cracks in any relationship anyway, so, in effect, that works against us - much harder to be 'starry eyed' for example, in a adult romantic relationship unless everything really is going very well.

When we are being overly-critical, we might be able to see the limitations of other people to seem to be our friends. It sort of stinks when their instincts are bad, so their advice is never as good. It is kind of like being in class and never having anyone to confer with on the answer because the gifted student is the best student in the class.

Very few people could probably stand our intensity level, so that is a huge limitation on the ordinary friendship.

Once you stop pining for friendships the way other people have them, you can focus on friendships that you can have the way gifted people have them. So, it is less about cliques and following the group and more about respect and trust and truly having something in common.

If you live in a crowded community, notice how neighbors swear their child found their very best friend close by in the neighborhood. Really what they do is restrict the child to finding who is close by because it is so easy for the parents.

For a gifted person in reality, we find our very best friends later in life as we go out and pursue our passions and find the other gifted people pursuing their passions. Turns out the best friend was not around the corner but in the world where we went to while pursuing our life. So, we have to wait to find our best friends.

I am not familiar with the scoring on the kbit, but the difference in nonverbal to verbal seems pretty wide. You might want to look into more intense testing privately if you can afford it. Sometimes large discrepancies indicate learning disorders.

This may be of some help: You should be able to get an IEP with the anxiety diagnosis. That's how my DS managed to get an IEP (over a 504 ), which is just stronger, more thorough, etc. He has a diagnosis of "generalized anxiety disorder." The anxiety disorder fell under something awful-sounding - "emotional disturbance." My husband was pretty upset at that "label" but I liked that it got him an iep as the 504 just wasn't working out to be a strong enough vehicle for him. At some point I think his category was changed to "other health impairment "(maybe once he was dx'ed with EDS, not sure). Anyway, I think maybe you need to push for an iep.

Also, sorry that she didn't qualify for gifted. sounds like she needs the gifted resources When you get her privately tested maybe the WISC (or Stanford Binet) would be a better test to show her giftedness and show where he deficits are. Will the school accept outside testing for the gifted program?