Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Math Learning "gaps" ?

Hello,
I am expecting a phone call today from the math coordinator, to discuss giving my 6th grade DS10 the assessment test for accelerated 7/8 math, right now. This will determine if he should be placed in the accel 7/8 math next year, or if he's ready for 9th grade Algebra I.

Last time I spoke to the coordinator he expressed concern about a child who advances to next level too soon, having learning "gaps". Missing info that should have been learned earlier.

My son learns SUPER fast. Math has always been at a far slower pace than he needs. How should I respond to the learning gap concern? How do I know if accel 7/8 is at a good pace for him, or if THAT will be too slow? What should I request?

You could do out-of-level achievement testing, identify any gaps between his current knowledge and the required knowledge for grade 9, and design a plan to fill the gaps between now and September (or earlier). There may be few to no gaps, which would render the argument moot.

It sounds like he's going to have to take the 7/8 math assessment test, so I think the logical starting place is to let him take the test. If it's an end-of-year test, that will tell you what he does and doesn't know from 7/8 math curriculum. Another way to determine what's in the 7/8 math curriculum is to look on your school district's website for your district's specific curriculum goals for each grade, or look at your state website if you can't find anything on your school district website. Compare the curriculums to what you know your ds has already mastered.

You can also ask that he be given an Algebra readiness test - I can't remember the name of it, but there is a test that's used nationwide (in the US) that your school district may have.

Once you have the data from tests and reviewing the curriculum, then you'll know where any potential gaps are, and you can make a plan to address them over the summer.

The other thing I'd do is to try to quantify your ds' needs. I am not sure honestly how to do it, but for instance, if I was a teacher or school staff person evaluating whether or not to put your ds in Algebra vs pre-Algebra next year, and I saw a few gaps, and the parent is saying they will put together a plan to make up the gaps - I might still be leaning toward putting the student in pre-Algebra just to be sure they get the proper background. (This isn't me speaking, I'm putting myself in the place of many of the teachers I've known). Then the parent responds with "my son learns quickly and *needs* a faster pace" or "he'll be bored with the pace" etc. Think through how you can show this, and how placing him in Algebra actually answers the need for a faster pace. My ds is also a quick learner and very good at math, and he's subject accelerated by a few grade levels in math. The gotcha with subject acceleration is that, unless you're placing the child into a faster-paced course you aren't addressing the pacing issue with subject acceleration. The flip side of that is, how do I, as a teacher, know that your ds "needs" that faster pace? What do you perceive to be the difference between "is capable of handling" and "needs"? Can you explain it? Hope that makes sense.

In other words, think through how you can logically address each of the school's concerns, and also how you can address what you want to convey re your ds' needs in a logical manner, rather than just saying "he needs a faster pace".

Hope that helps!

polarbear

polarbear

If your son is up for it, I think I'd be inclined to grab a copy of the grade level expectations and pre-teach the grade 7/8 curriculum before testing. Then you can be virtually assured that there will be no gaps and can quash any potential objections preemptively.

Did you ever find out what topics are covered in 7/8th grade math? If not perhaps now is the time. I would them ask them very pointed questions as to what particular subjects they are worried he would have gaps in?

The math coordinator in my district really fights the trend for more and more kids to take Algebra early. Not a lot of parents I know like him. He feels that too many kids are taking math too early, and find themselves in problems in High School when they can't keep up. What he does do to try and prevent this is to make his tests about abstract thinking.

I agree 100%. For gifted kids in situations like this, the "gaps" are usually small things that can be taught quickly, yet they can be used as evidence that the student has to take that course in order to fill them.


He's probably right. If he's putting questions that require abstract thinking on his tests, he's also probably trying to ensure that students have a good foundation in mathematics.

We are in just about the same situation. DS10 is in 6th grade math this year and has not learned a single new concept this year and knows almost all of next year's prealgebra curriculum as well. He's never missed more than one problem on any of the tests and we have talked to his teacher about how everything this year is a review. He has even pointed out to his teacher that he did a lot of the seventh grade work last year at a different school (his teacher also teaches prealgebra and DS has seen their assignments). His teacher knows all this and will be giving him a math placement test to see if he is ready for Algebra I next year, and yet, from all our previous dealings with our daughter, we know that the likelihood of his being placed into Algebra I is slim, regardless of how he does on the placement test. My older DD took and did well on three of these tests and yet the school said she couldn't do Algebra because of "holes." Nothing we said could convince them that she actually looked forward to "holes" - that meant she would actually learn something in school. The only thing that worked for DD was for us to insist that we, her parents, would take all the blame if it all went wrong if they would just let her try. We would have signed papers attesting to that, if asked. Only then was the school willing to let her take Algebra I. And lo and behold, she got an easy A and had fewer gaps than many of the kids in the class with her who had gone through pre-Algebra.

So, anyway, we are in the same boat with DS right now, and preparing for resistance from the school. You would think that if a kid liked math and was good at math and wanted to learn higher level math that the school and teachers would be thrilled and at least encourage the student to try. The other pipe dream would be for math teachers to become mentors to such children and actually encourage them!

What I forgot to say was that although I disagree with him on many things. His "algebra" readiness test that requires showing a "higher level thinking" is one thing I do agree with. This test isn't multiple choice, and has a lot of more abstract questions that require multi-step solutions.

I think there is a mismatch in a teacher or adimistrator's traditional model of kids growing math knowledge and what a highly gifted math learner can do. In fact, I'm kinda concerned about this gap in their knowledge. Maybe they shouldn't receive any advancement or salary increase until this gap is addressed. It doesn't matter if they have skills to deal with and effectively teach 99% of the students.

It's possible with some exposure and in context they'll come to understand that other 1% with little to no effort. But just to be safe, it could be better to hold back their careers until they have effective tools in place to deal with all ranges of student abilities.

Actually, it's those gaps that will go farthest in building character for the underchallenged. Being a little unready and scrambling in a couple of areas are going to teach far more valuable life skills than the math content ever will.

I imagine the math capabilities in the gifted just remain asleep when underchallenged. Nothing to reach for. If there is a gap, great! That's what morning extra help is for. It obviously serves the struggling kids but why not to let the gifted kids fill in the little mini lessons that won't take long,usually.

We also had a similar initial situation with #1, but a more positive overall resolution. In 5th grade, we asked for a grade advancement in math, but were told that since assignments were not being completed any faster than anyone else, no subject acceleration was needed (never mind that #1 was filling in the time by chitchatting with classmates, helping other people with their work, etc.). To be fair, the school had just done a whole grade skip, so they probably figured that that was enough. Fast forward to November of sixth grade, when the (same) math teacher came to us and asked if a straight skip to 7th grade math (from Saxon 7/6 to Saxon 8/7) would be okay with us. We did it, and saw no dip in test grades from the high 90s. By the spring of that school year, the math teacher was the one recommending algebra I for seventh grade, where #1 had the blessing of receiving instruction from a college math professor who was doing some part-time teaching (this was his only class, actually) in this small private school.

I think one of the factors that helped is that this school was using Saxon at the time, which is very much a spiral curriculum, which helped the teacher to feel more comfortable that any gaps would be filled along the way. She also had a mathy kid of her own, and was more sympathetic to making modifications.

Sometimes you do encounter schools that are willing to bend a little, and teachers who want to encourage capable children.

ITA with all of this.

My 7th grader (then 12) took an algebra readiness test at the beginning of the year when she was still in the 7th grade math --- it showed a high enough score to be ready for algebra even then. There were some gaps that the test pointed out, but not too many.

We used the readiness test with her Stanford 10 math scores to push for algebra this semester and got it. She has had solid high A's this whole semester. We met with her Algebra teacher after a few weeks to check in and I asked about any gaps --- she wasn't too worried.

If you can get the readiness test in your state, then definitely get it. If it shows your child's ready for algebra, that's one tool to help push for it. If it shows significant gaps, at least you'll know what they are.

In my little school district, gifted kids get what the school can feasibly offer. Meaning if my elementary kid needed algebra, it would not happen. However, since the middle school is on the same campus as the high, sending my DD over to the high school for algebra was do-able. I wish you luck!

Umm...Algebra I is a middle school course for most. She had to go to the HS to take Algebra I? What is the typical math sequence? Here they have tried various methods to evaluate math readiness. Middle kid took Iowas. Don't think there were significant gaps, though she never studied math on her own.

Couldn't they just bus her to the middle/high school for math when she was in elementary?

Some of you mentioned an "algebra readiness" test. I didn't know it existed so I appreciate hearing about it here! I didn't get that phone call yesterday that I was assured of, so perhaps today.

If DS10 takes the assessment of accelerated 7, the score could be "low" enough for them to say he should take the class. But I'd rather see a "high" enough score on algebra readiness and then we can decide that perhaps he is ready for Algebra I a year early, which is offered to 8th grade honors students and they've never offered it to a 7th grader before. And this would offset any worries about "gaps" that the math instructional coordinator brought up last week.

Would anyone agree this is a good approach? What kind of score on the Algebra Readiness test is good enough for my son to do well in this class? 70s? 80s? 90s? My son WANTS hard work. So how much does that count in the final decision?

Many district have their own versions of "Algebra readiness test". But our district says it's Iowa and I gues this is what they means...

http://itp.education.uiowa.edu/iara/iara.aspx

Basically, pre-algebra is in regular 7th and 8th grades curriculum and they are testing the same thing as in 7th and 8th grades level. Algebra is HS Math credit class and if the student is in 8th grade going to 9th and if the he/she gets 70, he/she is ready to go. But for student acceleration, they have higher benchmark. Our district benchmark used to be 90 percent but the State law makes it 80 across the board. You need to check that with your district.

There will be gaps. There are online resources from textbook publishers and if your DS can take those Chapter tests and you can find out what the gaps are and fill in during summer time.

http://glencoe.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0078740479/student_view0/chapter1/chapter_readiness_quiz.html

NotSoGifted, my school district is... well, kind of messed up. There's surely no money to bus a gifted kid from elementary to the middle/high. They are re-aligning our schools back to a Pre-K - 7 for Elementary and 8-12 for high school next year and then not having a middle school at all. That is what our district is rated for by our state anyway.

The middle came about due to a natural disaster (hurriquake one week, tropical storm the next, maintenance issues, etc.). The middle school is housed on the high school campus in modular units, so we're not talking a long walk to the high school.

Anyhoo, the math track is not to have Algebra til 9th grade. They do 7th and 8th grade math. Our school is very, very small so there's definitely not enough kids to track into a classroom for Algebra in the middle school. I and my hubby both took Algebra in around 8th grade at the schools we attended.

For gifted kids here, at least in elementary, they differentiate curriculum within the grade they are in, or if it's more beneficial/works out better scheduling-wise, they will skip a grade. They typically do not skip though.

Editing to add that my DD got identified very late -- as in this year.

Our school did not have any "algebra readiness" test. When my son wanted to skip Algebra I, they just gave him end of the year Algebra I test (in our district Algebra I is an honors math for 8th graders). I believe this could work for you too - ask the school to give your son a final test for the class he wants to skip.
As for grades - it depends on the general level of students at your school. The results should be high enough for the school authorities to be convinced, in our school they said that B+ would be sufficient. Better to ask them beforehand about the necessary scores, so they will not back up later.

The bus is typically the easy part. If there are staggered start times for elementary, MS and HS, then the elementary kid just takes the MS bus and math is 1st period. Then they get shuttled back to their school. If there aren't a whole lot of kids in Algebra, then they could just use a school van. Heck, the district maintenance staff could drive them back. Won't help your kiddo now, but for future kids in the same situation, maybe worth a mention.

In our public SD they absolutely will not transfer subject-accelerated students between schools. We were told that that is a parent responsibility we should be aware of should DS be accelerated. Also, the elementary schedule starts just 5 minutes later than the middle school schedule which starts just 5 minutes later than the high school schedule and the class times do not line up at all between schools.

When our DD11 was 9 (?) she too was ready for algebra, but the school she was at couldn't fit her into the 8th grade algebra class because of class size restriction laws in FL. She had been radically accelerated at that point into 7th grade and we talked with the algebra teacher about her taking algebra on line while physically sitting in the algebra class so that she could get some instruction on topics she needed clarification on. In order for the school to allow this we had her take the "algebra readiness" test that other 7th graders would take. When her scores came back, it did show some gaps, but it also showed that her thought processing was definitely ready for algebraic thought. Her school used a score of 80% or above to allow admittance into algebra as an 8th grader.
If the score comes back and they say it was too low, I would request to see the test and results and if the score is above 70% ask them what score is permitted - you may find that they use a sliding scale based on who is asking/wanting to get into the class.
I agree with what others are saying though - most gaps in knowledge will be easily filled once they need to use the skills in algebra to solve problems. I wouldn't worry about them at all.

School just called. They are going to pull my son out of 6th grade math once a week, go to librarian's office, use a computer there, for KHAN academy math. Starting this afternoon.

Any thoughts on this?

They are also planning on administering the Accelerated Grade 7 math test to him soon. I am a little nervous. Just to recap, Accelerated 7 combines both grade 7 and grade 8 curriculum into one year. They told me it's at a "breakneck pace".

1) What kind of score is low enough to suggest it's the right placement for my son in September?

2) What kind of score suggests he's competent enough to actually take Algebra I in September? I asked about an Algebra Readiness test, but the math coordinator says he has not heard about it in NY.

I need to be prepared with my informed opinions for the next conversation. Would appreciate all thoughts...thank you

Is your concern that he already knows too much of the 7th-8th curriculum to make that feasible?

For whatever it is worth, the pacing sounds far better in a compacted course like that-- maybe even better than "higher level" math. If your school's accelerated mathematics options include this kind of compacting in coursework, that's a great thing. Well, I suppose not if he's ready for Algebra and this is being suggested instead. Seeing material you mostly know at a faster pace only makes it slightly more bearable.

I'd let him show them what he can do with Khan, myself. They'll probably believe that a lot more than anything you bring to them at this point.

Cee, I would think of the Khan arrangement as a stopgap only. Your child deserves instruction that includes feedback from a teacher.

You also might like the book Developing Math Talent (Susan Assouline).

Most places would consider 75% as a threshold for deciding to skip the class and just patch any gaps that were found on the test.

They called back, and put my son on speaker. They presented it to him, and stressed that it will be paced at his level. His response was "that's perfect" (they said he's wearing a big smile).

I just googled Khan, and one of the first links was a Washington Post critical critique of its math videos. Just great. Educators are saying it doesn't teach or anticipate cofusion or student misconceptions. If my son's school isn't aware of Khan's flaws, and set him up once a week to do Khan as though it's a magical computer gateway, I think that's misleading.

On the upside, my son may get excited about mathematics again. He has seemed jaded and disappointed for so long.

Howler Karma, my concern is this. Pace of grade 6 math is ridiculously slow for him. Accelerated 7/8 will be better, perhaps more in line with his natural comfort level but what IF he can still, because of ability, move along faster?

Now I don't think faster is always better. But how do we, as advocating parents, analyze the course content as well as our child's abilities, and decide that our gifted child should NOT move along faster, even though they might be able to? When do we know that faster IS better?

I think tbh, the key thing to realise is that none of the concepts in school maths as usually taught are hard. If your DS is seriously mathy, he is never going to be challenged by the kind of concepts and questions on them that are typically used to test schoolchildren. For this reason, I think "pace" through the usual syllabus is not always the right thing to be looking at - this isn't where the challenge comes from anyway. Obviously spending time on basic presentation of concepts that are already mastered is a waste of time, whatever the pace; if he's faced with a syllabus where there'll be some of that and some new stuff, going faster may help by having him waste less time on the old stuff. But even if Alg 1 is totally new to him, it is not likely to solve the problem, because it isn't hard enough.

If he doesn't get the chance to work on hard problems, he's sunk whatever base material he's being presented with; and if he does get that chance, it doesn't matter so much what base material he's being presented with!

I wouldn't worry too much about the criticism of Khan, as long as your DS is keen. I've watched some of it, and while it has a point, I think it has a much more valid point for typically-mathy children than for very-mathy ones. Just so long as your DS knows who to ask - whether that's you or someone at school - any time he does have trouble, and so long as he gets hard enough problems to expose any lack of understanding, he'll likely be fine.

Different kids have different learning styles. My DD will zone out if someone is teaching something she already knows. With Khan's academy, she could just answer the question, shows her mastery and move on. Only the stuffs that she has trouble with, she would do their video lectures. For the sound of it, your DS may not need a lot of video lectures anyway.