Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion How asinine is the US educational system?

I should have realized this, since my kids went to a French immersion school, but math (and science I think) is different in the US than many other places. For some reason, in the US educators treat math and science as if there are neat, distinct subareas which do not depend upon or intertwine with other subareas. Algebra I is distinct from Geometry and Algebra II, Biology has nothing to do with Chemistry, etc. After seeing the European way of teaching math and science, my kids think the US way is stupid since we know these subareas cannot be used in isolation.

By the end of HS, the US kids may have covered the same math and science as their European counterparts, but if you look at things prior to then, the US kids may cover some topics earlier while the European kids cover other topics earlier.

I think my kids bisected a line around third grade, but that was at the French school. Didn't get back to that until 8th grade in the US public school.

In case anyone missed it, the point of these questions is this. Although there are 2 answers, yes and no, they cover 3 cases:

No, earlier.
Yes, during.
No, later/never.

The two "no" groups are at opposite ends of the range, but they are lumped together.

I don't think I studied geometry past the basics. I may be wrong but a lot of the stuff you talk about I have never done - trig yes, stats yes, algebra and calculus yes but very little geometry.

What one learns in U.S. High School Geometry has changed over the years. When I took it as a high school students, we learned Euclidean Geometry and learned how to do proofs properly. My DD's (regular) Geometry class was mostly a "how to" manual, that basically showed how you used these lemmas with some algebra to solve a lot of basic geometric problems. The difference with my son's "Honors" geometry class was that he was expected to learn how to do standard proofs.

Some school districts do teach a "Coordinated Math" curriculum rather than the more standard Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II. This curriculum just takes the standard topics and rearranges the order. Each year you get a bit of algebra and some geometry. I'm not qualified to say if either ordering is "better" or not.

What bluemagic said. ^

My DD started to do geometric constructions in about 5th grade, I think-- around pre-algebra, anyway. However, she did not have the kind of rigorous instruction in proofs that DH and I both vividly (and very very fondly) recall from geometry instruction. Even honors didn't do much of it-- though they were exposed to the idea, unlike the non-honors peers.



I was also (pleasantly) surprised by just how much molecular biology and biochem is in high school biology coursework these days.


22B's point is the one that I was attempting to make, btw-- at least, that is how administrative bureaucracy can see the answers to those questions if you live in a state that has very particular graduation standards. It's bizarre, and yes, asinine to have to jump through many additional hoops in order to prove that you're not in the "no, never" group... seems like burden of proof ought to be nicely satisfied by doing higher math, after all, but it's not about logic or rationality, I'm afraid.

It's about PROVING it to those who frankly could care less about my family in particular.

This is pretty much my memory of geometry.

Granted, I have no idea what was actually taught in a geometry class.

My father simply pushed the "master system override" button, slapped a tutor on me for a few weeks during the summer, and the class was credited to my record.

Actually, your assumptions are not true and have not been true for at least a decade in my children's district and many other districts (in different states) of which I am aware. There is even the term "elementary geometry" sometimes used to describe the geometry routinely covered in the elementary curriculum. Circumference, area, volume, parallel/perpendicular lines ,translating/rotating/flipping figures, and compass/protractor use are just some of the topics routinely covered in elementary school. In our district's pre-algebra curriculum, easily a third of the curriculum would be more properly classified as pre-geometry and further extends coverage of geometry-type topics. "High school" geometry, which my DS will study in 6th grade will be routinely taken in 8th grade by "GT" students(maybe about a quarter of students as the label becomes more inclusive in middle school). That "high school" geometry course will require the ability to write proofs.

Back to the original question, the answer is no. I knew and/or knew of a few students at elite colleges who did not have a high school diploma. One kid got into trouble for creating an explosion at his private school so they withheld his diploma but the college (an Ivy) still wanted him.

As for the high school graduation requirements,as long as the district approved the original coursework, there shouldn't be an impediment. Of course, your DD may be subjected to additional "assessments" and other hoops, particularly if the original coursework was not arranged with the district's blessings.

If your DD completes Calculus BC by her sophomore year, I think it is unlikely that her interest in math will then terminate. Some high schools allow/facilitate enrollment in differential equations and linear algebra. Of course, AP statistics would be invaluable in sciences and economics, etc.

I read once that some high schools will give credit for college courses after the student has left high school, so someone could earn a high school diploma after the first or second year of college. This would be a form of dual enrollment.

The community college that my son attends will give a high school diploma to anyone getting an associate's degree if requested by the student. I think this is the case statewide (WA).