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Joined: Jul 2011
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Both of these kids need to learn problem solving and higher level math. And school math teaches a version of this and the way school teaches (ducking here) makes it accessible to more people sooner. If we are going to require 4 years of math, we need math that people can pass while they are doing the school play, the school orchestra, and 6 other intense classes. The way school teaches it, you don't actually need to be conscious in calculus class to get a 100%. This makes school plays much more intellectually stimulating.
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Joined: Sep 2011
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Well, you might want to cross-check the list of high schools offering classes beyond calculus with those that have multiple kids making USA(J)MO before writing off kids that take those classes as having gone through a bunch of fluff courses. IIRC, there are a couple high schools that have more than one kid at that level - I doubt that those kids are weak in problem-solving and proofs! I think it is quite possible that both of the following are true concurrently: (a)there are many kids getting through HS math courses that are weak and (b) there are schools that have kids who need college level math prior to graduation from HS.
To answer the question of why one would take math after finishing Calc BC, should one do so as a freshman/soph - because a person taking that path probably wants to go into a field that uses math and will be taking further math courses in college. It is not a good idea to just take a couple years off math and then try to jump back in, even if such a person would want to do so. Pretty unlikely anyone would want to anyway.
As far as dealing with HS graduation requirements, perhaps it is difficult with virtual high schools, but every b&m high school I've talked to has an option in place to verify geometry through testing if the course isn't already on the transcript. It's really not a problem, and all other math (as well as foreign language) courses follow the rule that mastery of a course is sufficient to verify mastery of courses that are prior to it in the sequence. Ditto to everything kcab said - polarbear
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Well, you might want to cross-check the list of high schools offering classes beyond calculus with those that have multiple kids making USA(J)MO before writing off kids that take those classes as having gone through a bunch of fluff courses. IIRC, there are a couple high schools that have more than one kid at that level - I doubt that those kids are weak in problem-solving and proofs! I think it is quite possible that both of the following are true concurrently: (a)there are many kids getting through HS math courses that are weak and (b) there are schools that have kids who need college level math prior to graduation from HS. My district is very proud and stubborn that THEIR honors math classes are the most rigorous classes around. I'm not completely convinced but I am not unhappy with their rigor either. My son's been struggling to get good grades, I've heard the teacher uses problems out of AoPS on her tests. My son's High school has multiple kids who get top scores in the country in USA(J)MO, although I'm not sure if that isn't more because of all the outside tutoring these kids have been in for years than the districts curriculum. I am still confused as to what the kid who is a freshman and in my sons Algebra II class and taking today's AP BC Calculus test is planning. I don't believe our H.S. will give the kid credit for the course. Perhaps he plans to enroll is math courses at university? I expect he wanted to skip to Calc this year but the school wouldn't let him? Years ago my husband took maths classes at university starting in 9th grade, and I know it can be done. But most of the kids who finish Calculus early around here, just don't take math for a year or two.
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This reminds me that my son asked last night what one learns next year in Pre-Calculus anyway? In his mind if it was like Pre-Algebra there didn't seem much point.
My short answer to him was that is was more trig, some more geometry, a hodgepodge of other topics helpful to know before taking Calculus and some basic beginner Calculus.
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This reminds me that my son asked last night what one learns next year in Pre-Calculus anyway? In his mind if it was like Pre-Algebra there didn't seem much point.
My short answer to him was that is was more trig, some more geometry, a hodgepodge of other topics helpful to know before taking Calculus and some basic beginner Calculus. I don't think that a strong math student needs to take pre-Calc. Especially if he has a solid foundation in algebra and trig. The issue is IF they have a strong foundation in Trig., and this comes down to what the particular per-Calc class involves. His Algebra II class seems to only have 2 Chapters of Trig. and they haven't even started it yet. Still 6 weeks of school left. So I expect a lot more Trig in next years Pre-Calc.
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Both of these kids need to learn problem solving and higher level math. And school math teaches a version of this and the way school teaches (ducking here) makes it accessible to more people sooner. If we are going to require 4 years of math, we need math that people can pass while they are doing the school play, the school orchestra, and 6 other intense classes. The way school teaches it, you don't actually need to be conscious in calculus class to get a 100%. This makes school plays much more intellectually stimulating.  Also worth noting that no, actually, the problem that I mentioned is one that local B&M kids are up against, as well. At least with a virtual school, middle schoolers don't require transportation to and from the high school to enroll in higher level math class as seventh graders. In fact, it's a BIGGER problem for students who take EPGY independent study, because you have to get the local high school to agree to give credits for it. Sometimes they won't. Seems kind of random, truthfully, as I know two local students this happened to, and both parents are proactive-- one of them wound up sleeping through geometry again as a senior for the specific purpose of obtaining a regular high school diploma. Yes, really. The school couldn't be bothered to seek an exemption with the state, and that was the only other solution.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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This reminds me that my son asked last night what one learns next year in Pre-Calculus anyway? In his mind if it was like Pre-Algebra there didn't seem much point.
My short answer to him was that is was more trig, some more geometry, a hodgepodge of other topics helpful to know before taking Calculus and some basic beginner Calculus. I don't think that a strong math student needs to take pre-Calc. Especially if he has a solid foundation in algebra and trig. Completely agree-- except that most modern Algebra II and Geometry courses aren't rigorous enough to constitute a truly adequate foundation in and of themselves. Still, very strong and motivated students shouldn't need it either way, given what I've seen of it (I've now looked at no less than four different textbooks for this course).
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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Thanks everyone for your comments - alarming and reassuring simultaneously LOL
Personally, I see Maths as something to be used not studied for the sake of it so I would fully support my DD dropping Maths once she had demonstrated that she would have no trouble with further Maths at college and devoting more high school time to other subjects potentially requiring the Maths that she had learned up to then, e.g. Physics (obvious), Statistics, Chemistry etc.
I would much rather she did something she found interesting than a stultifying high school Maths class covering material that she already knew.
I posted the first post in this thread to try to see if it would be possible. I have learned:-
a) it would be potentially possible to graduate without 'token years' of high school Maths.
b) paranoia will be the only thing keeping me sane, I must stay on top of local/state requirement and that obsessive collection of documents and transcripts from online courses is essential.
c) some here think that *not* doing maths for the sake of it (taking a break from pure maths) is a bad thing - I am not convinced.
d) many quality universities do not require a high school diploma
e) eligibility for state aid with tuition may be compromised if a high school diploma or equivalent is not obtained.
Thanks again all!
Last edited by madeinuk; 05/07/14 05:42 PM.
Become what you are
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The question of C) is one you can review for yourself and in terms of your kid. How much is retained from year to year; then say after five years without practice. Will courses with applications of math or specific math be required come college?
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Also a means of a work-around for item C) is the notion that your child, provided that s/he has the right temperment and inclination, might enjoy tutoring other students on the material while in high school-- this has helped DD keep the geometry skills sharp while she works on other things that don't use the skills.
Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.
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