Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Writers block, could there be more going on?

My DS15 who is a freshman in H.S. gets very stuck when it comes to writing. He CAN write quite brilliantly when he has something to say. His first drafts are better than mine. He gets mentally blocked and nothing I can think of doing will get him to even put one word on the paper. He over analyses everything to do with the essay/project, and makes the projects 100% harder than it the one assigned. And he wants to have the entire essay in his mind before he puts one word to paper.

This came to a head again last night, on a one page analysis of a poem for English. I couldn't convince him the teacher really didn't want a unique interpretation, that he wasn't writing a masters thesis on it. It is a bit of a perfection issue, if it doesn't feel like his voice he won't write it. When he was in 6th grade he had major problems with this issue that I mostly dealt with by backing off a bit. He was in very intense honors program and was having anxiety problems at the time. By last year his 8th grade teacher thought he was an excellent writer and didn't even hesitate to recommend him for the honors classes. But this year he is struggling in both English & Social Students because of his inability to quickly write to a prompt. This is something he HAS to be able to do to function in H.S. level English, and for things such as a the writing prompt on the SAT/ACT.

I have decided to send him to a 3 week writing camp/class this summer that I had been dithering about. But I'm not sure how much this will help except give him more practice. The question is could there be a LD or something else deeper going on? I had two different psychologists in the past who said he didn't fit an aspergers diagnosis. I am considering having the Educational Therapist who worked with my DD19 who had language processing issues evaluate him just because I know her. I'm just not sure she is the right specialist.

I am getting so frustrated. Next year he will have to be in regular CP English & Social Studies because his writing is not up to par. He was dropped to this English class over semester break because of the writing problems, and now he is totally bored in most of the class while getting 100% on everything but his writing. I don't know how to help him. My friends think I just need to make him WANT it enough. But this starts to feel like when my daughter didn't crawl by 12 months, and there was nothing I could do to get her moving. Working with a physical therapist helped immensely and it felts so good to have the right tools to help.

Any suggestions, resources, who would be best to try and help my son with this situation. I guess I need to go in and talk with his counselor about this in hopes that she can influence his teacher choice for next year.

bluemagic, I can't tell you if it is or isn't an LD or other challenge for your ds, but I would wonder about the possibility of an LD based on a few things you've included in your post:

* His sister has language processing issues
* Uneven output - when he has an idea he can write really well, but other times he can't get any thoughts out
* Past evals by a psych for ASD - what prompted those evals? Sometimes expressive language challenges are a part of ASD, sometimes they are separate or associated with a different challenge. If the evals were only looking for an ASD, it's possible that something different was overlooked.

The writing process is complex - there are many different skills required to completing a writing assignment. My ds has an expressive language disorder that impacts his ability to generate thoughts for written expression. Although written expression is the largest impact of his LD, it also shows up in his verbal expression too - but it's not easy to see unless you know what to look for. DS can talk like crazy about things that are concrete and factual and that he knows a lot about - but open-ended questions and expressing feelings etc are difficult for him. We didn't realize this as early as we saw the writing difficulties simply because he was so obviously smart when he did talk - but there were clues - one of which I think you've mentioned about your ds - appearing to be shy to talk to adults. His early struggles with writing also looked a lot like perfectionism but that wasn't really the issue.

Re how to determine if there's an LD - our ds' expressive language disorder was diagnosed by a speech pathologist.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Perhaps he could read Anne Lamott's book "Bird by Bird"? She writes a lot about what helps her gets words on the page, including the concept of "sh**ty first drafts."

Thanks, this really helps. It at least gives a place for me to start looking. I can look more into expressive language disorder and I guess I should call my daughters old therapist. She is a certified educational therapist who deals with kids who have reading and language difficulties. Told me back in February that she would be happy to try and fit my son into her schedule.

It is so hard because he is obviously so much more capable than his sister. In many situations he just shines. And he gets so frustrated with writing sometimes he just works himself into a state that pushing gets us nowhere. I'm going to have to take away his computer time today, because I tried that tactic last night and have to follow through with what I said.

That sounds familiar. I think my daughter might have that book. I think it might have been a required book in her first writing class at college.

Just found this:

http://www.davincisroomconsulting.c...e_Processing_Problems_in_Gifted_Kids.pdf

I noticed one of the "signs" is Mom has a tenancy to "talk" for that child. I used to do this for both my children, and it was brought to my notice that this is not helpful. People assumed I did it because I wouldn't let my children talk and this frustrated me. I wasn't doing it intentionally. I got in the habit partly because it was easier, particularly when time was an issue such as at a doctors office.

Thanks for posting the link blue - I don't have time to read through all of it now, but it looks like a wonderful resource. I did have time to read through the list of signs... and fwiw... my ds fit many of them! Including my all-time *not* favorite symptom: "Writing assignments create parental stress". That was a HUGE symptom here in my house lol!


I used to have to do this for ds all the time - still do in some situations. I wouldn't say it's "not helpful", but rather, it's not what other adults expect - there's an expectation that a child will speak up for himself or answer a question when it's directed at him/her. When a child won't answer, adults tend to assume the child is either shy or not interested or being rude or being a child or whatever, when for a child with an expressive language disorder what it really means is they have no idea what to say or how to respond. In that instance - when you are speaking for a child who doesn't know what to say and can't know in the moment because they have a genuine for-real challenge - I think it's actually helpful to speak up for them - it is in one sense an accommodation - just as letting a dysgraphic child type or letting a dyslexic child listen to audio textbooks - to bypass the challenge to accomplish the task. More importantly, every time you speak up for your ds you are showing him how to answer a question with words - and that's a huge part of what a child with an expressive language challenge needs to learn - how to answer with their words. Or at least it has been for my ds.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I get a LOT of grief for doing this particularly from my husband and mother. And I know my teenager my son SHOULD know how to speak for himself. But when a child isn't able to express themselves, and I have a better clue because I know them better. It's hard to just stay quiet. For my daughter I often felt I was modeling and showing her how to respond.

I now feel terribly guilty that I didn't see this earlier. Both guilt and a bit of relief although I know this is just a theory until I can get it tested. In 6th grade DS was having major anxiety and anger problems, than turned into social problems. These stemmed from the demands in his gifted class. One major component was a huge amount of writing. He ended up seeing a psychologist and we put him in a social skills class with kids. These things both helped but clearly hasn't addressed the root of the problem. It's also where I got the opinion that he wasn't 'on the spectrum'.


I've left a phone call with the educational therapist and I've decided I'm going to start by writing his English teacher an email about last nights assignment. I figure that is the first step before addressing his counselor.

Thanks a lot. You have been very helpful.

My read on it is perfectionism mixed with a lack of organizational skills for writing with perhaps a heavy dose of the forest-view sort of gifted mind.

On the perfectionism front, I know adults who want to write novels but never start because they don't know how to get it published. It's a sort of long-sighted short-sightedness. There are some common (possibly mythical) numbers like on average a writer gets their twelfth novel published first. 10 or 12 rewrites of screenply before it filmed. Pretty common number. And that's what professionals do.

For skills, perfectionism, big picture thinking (and for many career endeavours) the key skill is organizing thoughts into bite size executable pieces. Start first with unstructured brainstorming of ideas, points, counter points. Capture those, organize them, hone them down and writing the most clear piece first (not starting at word one and end-to-end one word after another.) I'd look into helping him find graphical tools for organizing thoughts like thought maps.

I love this description.

This is why I've enrolled him in a summer writing program. I can't convince him to outline, make notes, or start in the middle. He needs help by someone other than me. He has been taught these strategies over the years. My husband isn't helping because he starts with word one and works to the end himself. And the fact that DS can get away without doing other things the teachers suggest like study for tests, make detailed outlines of the chapters doesn't help convince him that they are right on this.

And that's one of the bigger tragedies of gifted folks only just surviving the school system: we learn a tremendous amount of skepticism towards presumed or asserted authority sometimes to our detriment.

I hope the course works out for him.

WOW, things are moving faster than I expected. I wrote the teacher to ask her option and suggested that there might be a language processing problem. She got back to me this afternoon and agreed with my description of the problem. But admitted that she wasn't qualified to diagnose. She forwarded my message to the school psychologist and they are recommending support meeting to discuss the issues. I am very impressed the school is willing to move this fast.

My daughter had an IEP all through 11th grade but I got nothing but resistance from this H.S. even when they did their own testing. In their mind she was doing very well and didn't need much support.

School called this AM.. and set up a meeting for two weeks.

I am still so frustrated with how to help the kid. He has had his computer taken away until he completes the assignment even if the teacher won't take it late. He spent 3 hours mostly not writing the assignment. I am not sure why, but he is insisting it must be handwritten and since he doesn't want to copy it over after he is done fixing it. He wants every word precise. It's a 3 paragraph essay about a poem, this should not have taken him more than a hour.

Funny, I thought my kid was still around, but apparently he's migrated to your house!

My daughter had to read this book for her first university writing course. I don't remember her liking it all that much but she has very different strengths than my son. So perhaps while she didn't find it useful my son would. I am going to talk with her this afternoon and I'll see if she still has the book.

There were also some good links in that article and on that site in general on creativity/perfectionism, etc.

bluemagic, I think that the teacher agreeing that their might be an issue is one of the most compelling reasons to seek more info before assuming perfectionism etc - it's been my experience that teachers have a tough time recognizing expressive language problems, especially in older students, partially because there are so many other plausible explanations such as perfectionism, lack of engagement, lack of focus etc.

It's a good sign that the school is going to set up a team meeting - I would specifically request an SLP eval as part of an assessment if they agree to any testing for IEP eligibility etc. If they don't, I'd suggest considering a private eval.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - deacongirl - thanks for the link to the Bird by Bird book - it looks great, and I've ordered a copy for myself and my ds to look at. The one thing I'd caution bluemagic is - my ds will most likely benefit from reading the book now, but that's after years of speech therapy. I don't know if your ds has an expressive language challenge or not, but for kids who do (like my ds) it's really key to understand what piece of expressive language skills is the roadblock before putting a big chunk of "how to attack _(fill in the blank)_" in front of them and expecting anything to come of it. The root of my ds' issue was actually generating thoughts - perhaps it's an organizational thing, it's not easy to explain, but the very first step in the writing process was a total road-block for him... and that was rooted in an actual LD, not in perfectionism. Had we tried tips aimed at getting past perfectionism at the beginning of remediation, it wouldn't have helped and would most likely have frustrated him to beyond the edge of any nearby cliff. This is somewhat what happened to him in school - his teachers made assumptions about the reasons that he wasn't producing writing. They also made very reasonable attempts to help him through his writing blocks based on their assumptions, but the assumptions weren't correct so they not only didn't result in any improvements in writing, they just led to extreme anxiety in my ds. Getting the SLP eval and seeing where the root of the problem was, then spending time working on that, was what led to actual improvement.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I have gone through getting a diagnosis for my daughter so I do agree it's probably best to see how eval turns out. It's just frustrating right now. Part of it's he doesn't care for poetry, particularly the selection of poems that he is being required to read. Most of them are about being a teenager from an adults perspective and feel to him like they are trying to tell him what to feel.

We have 7 more weeks of the school year, so I don't think this will help much for this years classes. But I am hoping we can talk about teacher selection for next year. Teacher selection makes a huge difference with DS.

It's hard because many teachers and adults who don't know him well see it as defiance. That I'm not being hard enough on him and if he was just motivated enough, or didn't spend as much time on computer games he would buckle down and get it done. But if you know him and work with it's obvious he isn't trying to be defiant.

my post won't actually be of any help (sorry) but my daughter is a lot younger, only 6, and has recently been diagnosed with a word finding difficulty. It affects her reading and writing as well as her speech. They aren't sure if there isn't something else language wise going on too but she is so young and as she is so bright she is hiding everything well.

This won't help much at all, but I just wanted to let you know I totally understand - this happened with our ds and his teachers too. I think it's really a good thing that you have a teacher this year who agrees there's something up, and that she's suggesting a team meeting. Even though by the time you've met there isn't going to be much of this school year left, you'll have a team approach started and in the works, rather than having to start at square one next year, where you might not have a teacher who sees the problem.

Sending you tons of good wishes,

polarbear

Thanks. Part of why I post is just to get some sympathy/empathy. Because of just this issue it's hard to talk about with my friends since they just see him as being lazy.

My daughter had this same teacher her senior year and LOVED her. I am not sure how much she knew of my daughters challenges, because the school insisted on graduating her from her IEP at the end of junior year. My son likes her as well and has felt comfortable enough with her to ask for help on multiple occasions. He managed to stay with the same teacher when he dropped levels at semester break, seems we sacrificed Spanish instead.

We still have 6 more weeks of classes, then 3 days finals. We just got 3rd quarter grades. We run almost to the end of June. I am hoping that this will result in a good conversation as to the right level & right teachers for next years classes. My son is one of those kids whom the teacher & their grading style really matter.