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    N.. #189233 04/24/14 04:23 AM
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    I am on year 4 of a similar struggle. I will hedge by saying, while similar, my DS is EG, not PG so there may be some differences. What we (parents, teachers, g/t teacher, ed psych, tutor, etc.) found is that he will likely never get the 2e diagnosis b/c of his speed of learning. If you directly tell him something once he can apply it. That said, 90% of the time, he won't integrate the "basics" that he learned in class due to his perceived simplicity of it. We tried accelerating for a short period of time and actually found things getting worse b/c while he was more stimulated intellectually, his processing "glitch" was becoming more pronounced.

    Since then, we have had great success with LB intervention (he needed some major gaps filled in) as it can easily identify the gaps in basics and they have the standardized retests annually so you can see if things fall between the cracks as he progresses throughout school. Following this, we have recently been "decelerating" him in school (not even sure if that is a real term smile ) to solidify the basis of reading, writing and math constructs, rules etc. as most who have the expertise tell me that he is ripe for significant struggles in 6-8 grade when the application and comprehension gets significantly harder. He has actually been able to use this time and lack of speed to his advantage. While he is bored stiff, after the intensive remediation, he intellectually understands what he needs to do, and knows it take him a little longer. He also strangely feels more like his peers and less "different". The trade off is, when he's home he gets to read his own things, at whatever level he wants and I have to do more "after schooling" in areas of his interest (history and engineering).

    This has been and continues to be a huge struggle with no less that 5 people involved on any given day. I absolutely feel for you and wish I was further down the line to give you some better long term advice. For now, all I can say is the persistance of everyone working with him and acknowledging this "glitch" is continuing to pay off. I wish you the best of luck in this struggle!


    N.. #189235 04/24/14 04:41 AM
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    I would second polarbear. Our DS passed his conventional ophthalmologist exams with flying colors, including an extra convergence check I requested because I had convergence issues myself as a child. So I set that worry aside. When he began to refuse seatwork this year we learned the letters were dancing on the page. The developmental optometrist picked up major issues with convergence, accommodation, and tracking. He has been reading well beyond grade level - but with far too much effort.

    I was highly skeptical myself (and my DH more so) until sitting in on the exam and watching the optometrist systematically zero in on where DS was having trouble.

    N.. #189238 04/24/14 05:07 AM
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    Thank you.

    Vision Therapy:
    I have been reading a bit on vision therapy. I understand the skepticism but also understand those who have seen success are strong advocates--and that is always compelling. Our pediatrician was very against it when we approached her. I realize many conventional doctors are not bought in but at the time her reaction left a significant impression on DH and myself. I think we have opened up a bit (especially now that some insurance covers it) and may explore it if June tests leave Ed Psych with same conclusions as a year ago. He has been asked so many times about his vision and he says nothing dances, moves, blurs, etc. But Irealize that this is not conclusive.

    connectindots...the underachievement is the term we keep throwing around to describe the discrepency in IQ to ACH results. Perhaps I am using the term incorrectly and it just caught on as school uses it only in conversation with me?

    Masterofnone: I have heard of HG+ kids pretending not to be able to read. I am fairly confident that is not our case due to his errors he made and effort I saw put in. However, your second point is and was true. Recently he was assessed by reading tutor. She tested him at end of first, second and third grade reading level. His score never really changed in terms of RPM, errors and comprehension. her was consistently between 130-150 wpm (went up as grade levels went up); he consistently got 4-5 words wrong (most not context changing); and he consistently got 95%+ on comprehension. His reading of short and more instructional text is what I think we need to take a closer look at...

    mykids...I believe my son is EG technically with a VCI in the PG range...so not far off (not that it makes a big difference at that aptitude level) What is LB testing? I am not familiar with that? And how was your son's achievement...was it all above grade level and without scatter? Did all LD assessments come back with no LD detection? That seems to be what is throwing everyone in our case...




    N.. #189242 04/24/14 05:44 AM
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    LB is Lindamood Bell--very targeted towards dyslexia and processing disorders. Not too different from OG.

    Achievement started out 2+ grade levels ahead and has decreased over the years to being about 1 grade level ahead. The fact that he is "stagnating" and not making the normal progression of an "average" student, much less an EG student is what is concerning to all. All LD assessments came back with no LD detection at this point, but no one really believes it b/c he was 5.3 when they were done and the threshold for a 5 year old is VERY different than that of a 12 year old. There is little doubt that if left untreated he would be dx later--likely in 6th grade. For all the obvious reasons, I clearly was unwilling to wait the 6 years for that to happen and then intervene. Hope that helps.


    N.. #189243 04/24/14 05:47 AM
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    N.. I think you need more information. Can you readminister the WJ? This would document and quantify the effects of this year's tutoring and schooling. It sounds like he'd jump a huge amount, and it might expose a problem to focus your attention if there's an area that doesn't change.

    N.. #189248 04/24/14 06:44 AM
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    I probably not "adding" much more, but here's a couple thoughts.
    (And my son is hg+, so not same. How're ever, stronger in VCI then PRI)

    My ds7 was tested 1 year ago as a k student, WJ showed reading at 3rd grade, math 2nd grade. Tester said she expected to increase with exposure (I was providing no math and limited reading.) It was also recommended to us to see a developmental optometrist. This vision therapy has changed my son. He is able to read and do work much easier with great endurance.

    I am so happy we had evaluated as I'm sure it must have been very stressful to not be able to see well. He never voiced a problem, but I'm sure when you've always had a problem, it seems normal.

    N.. #189260 04/24/14 07:57 AM
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    My kids...yes our stories are very similar then, aren't they? Should you have any additional advice let me know. I'll reread your posts but was it third grade you started to see the stressors? Also would you be able to highlight what "glitches" everyone saw specifically...I have not yet been able to reach a consensus on what his "glitch" looks like with any of his teachers. Did you go down the vision therapy road?

    Geofizz. Hi! We are retesting in June and agree it would be great if information could be gleaned from the results! Our tester cautions that it is sensitive and a year may not be enough to reflect useful changes. I'm hoping it is smile

    Melessa...thank you for sharing!



    N.. #189318 04/24/14 12:40 PM
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    pm'd you with the details.

    N.. #189323 04/24/14 01:09 PM
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    wanted to share my experience with VT. DS was diagnosed with convergence insufficiency when we were in the UK, I believe he was 3. Was not picked up here by an optometrist but when we went to see a pediatric opthal., she did she pick it up along with intermittent exotropia. DS never complained about headaches or seeing double or anything really, but at that age, he didn't express things like that much. In any case, he was about a year to 1.5 years ahead in reading for reading. What prompted us to seek vision therapy was the fact that yes, it was obvious he had the convergence issue (when focusing on a very close letter for example, coming to about an inch away from the bridge of his nose, he couldn't keep his left eye focused at close range, it would slide to the side after about 1 second of focusing). All his life he has had issues with catching balls, knowing where things were in his space..I mean we would say, it's right there to your left!! and he couldn't see it..But no problems with balance, riding bikes whatsoever.
    Intense 4 months of therapy but almost all of it was at home, after meeting with doc every week. I'm not going to lie, it was tough. BUT, it has fixed his convergence issue. He can focus at close range very well now and his reading really took off after that.

    This year we had a follow up appointment with another behavioral opt. (we moved), and he doesn't have the convergence issue, but still sees the exotropia. We never see it, but apparently it may not be visible to us. Another couple of thousands for therapy, so we called his first pediatric opthmal. and she doesn't recommend VT for this, stating that it really only helps with convergence which by the way she never recommended therapy for, just wait and watch.

    We don't know if we should proceed or not. He does have struggles with homework sometimes and wonder if a)getting more VT would help and b)if it really works for exotropia.

    On the reading note, your DS is obviously very gifted and my DD is HG but FWIW she didn't really read well and regularly until about 6 months ago. Preferred to be read to. But the rate in which she has progressed has been incredible. So in agreement with Polarbear, it is the rate in which she is tracking that is indicative of her abilities. And she sometimes gets very simple words wrong or substitutes but I believe it is due to her reading in her head so quickly and she's already processed some of the sentence before she spits it out (hope that makes sense). She can read much faster silently then out loud. Also when she first started to read regularly, she would often pause at or mistake the easy words and get words like "procrastination" for example. But she has now outgrown that.

    N.. #189327 04/24/14 01:16 PM
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    Originally Posted by N..
    Vision Therapy:
    I have been reading a bit on vision therapy. I understand the skepticism but also understand those who have seen success are strong advocates--and that is always compelling. Our pediatrician was very against it when we approached her. I realize many conventional doctors are not bought in but at the time her reaction left a significant impression on DH and myself. I think we have opened up a bit (especially now that some insurance covers it) and may explore it if June tests leave Ed Psych with same conclusions as a year ago. He has been asked so many times about his vision and he says nothing dances, moves, blurs, etc. But Irealize that this is not conclusive.

    N, vision therapy is controversial, but you'll also probably find that it's more widely accepted and practiced than you might anticipate. As I mentioned, I was very skeptical when it was suggested for our dd. Like your ds, she had never mentioned *anything* to us in anyway that suggested she had issues with her vision. Prior to neuropsych testing, she'd complained that she had difficulty reading what her teacher wrote on the board, so we'd had her eyesight checked by our regular eye dr and it was 20/20, no concerns. I did, however, know another mom who's dd had been through vision therapy and it had made a tremendous difference for her re reading ability, so she reassured me it was worth going through the eval. I still wasn't convinced, so I asked our eye dr expecting to hear that it was bogus nonsense (which is what our ped thinks), and instead found out that our eye dr feels it can be really really helpful for people who have vision issues due to muscle weakness. She helped me understand the difference in her exam vs the developmental optometrist - the conventional eye dr is looking at acuity of eyesight, the developmental optometrist is looking at how the eyes function together. So she totally believed it was possible that our dd could have had a 100% a-ok exam with her and still have vision issues. I also found out, when talking about it with a teacher at school, that a staff member at our school was undergoing vision therapy - her eyesight had begun to bother her at 40, so she just assumed it was normal aging and she was headed for bifocals, but that wasn't what was up - she had convergence issues that developed later in life, and she went through vt and it resolved.

    SO.... we decided that it was worth at least going for the eval, which I was allowed to sit in on. At one point they asked my dd to tell how many points she saw on top of a baton held up about 6 feet away from her. There was one baton, she saw two points. She said two as if it was as natural as night and day, and had absolutely no idea that none of the rest of us weren't seeing two of everything also (she was 7 years old at the time). I have no idea if she'd had double vision her entire life, but once the vision therapists told us what signs to look for, we realized she'd probably always had double vision. So that's the thing with young children and vision - they've never looked through anyone else's eyes so they don't know they don't see the world the same way other people do. And double vision was tricky too because the brain will shut down the vision in one eye if it gets too overloaded with trying to process visual information (hence the double-vision seems to go away). That doesn't mean there isn't an issue though - when you are only seeing through one eye, peripheral vision is extremely limited, depth perception is off, and you tire quickly when trying to read etc.

    Sorry for the long reply!

    Quote
    Re the "underachievement" - how far off are the achievement scores you're thinking of as "underachieving"? And what type of tests? Classroom tests or WJ-III type achievement tests or some other? I wouldn't worry too much if the differences are things like 99.9th ability vs only testing 1.5-2 grade levels ahead at this point *unless* you're seeing a correlation with something that might be an issue, such as the possible reading issue.

    FWIW with reading, we have a dd (different dd) who has an actual reading challenge (not vision-related) - she's been through extensive testing by a reading specialist (vision-challenged dd also went through a not-quite-so-intensive dyslexia eval prior to her vision testing). I've found the reading evals to be really helpful - you might want to consider more in-depth reading testing too if your ds hasn't already had a thorough eval. I'm not sure what type of eval your tutor is using- there are literally (or at least it seems like it!) tons of different skills to assess when looking at the skills that together go into reading.


    Quote
    Did all LD assessments come back with no LD detection? That seems to be what is throwing everyone in our case...

    FWIW, our dd who has a reading challenge has a wide range of conflicting opinions/diagnoses depending on who evaluated her. Her 2nd grade teacher was concerned that her reading, although at grade level, should have been higher based on her verbal communication skills - so she was tested at school, found to be at grade level, hence no concerns from school. We (parents) were concerned, dd hated to read, so we had her evaluated by an independent evaluator with sped experience (evaluation included full ability vs achievement testing plus dyslexia screen). The tester found that dd had an issue with associative memory that significantly impacted her ability to associate a letter with a specific sound, hence the challenge with reading (although *not* a dyslexia diagnosis and not technically an LD, per the tester). DD was evaluated again a year later when we needed more help trying to figure out a game plan for remediating reading - this time by a reading specialist who administered a wide range of reading-skill-specific tests, and once again found the same issue with learning and remembering sight-sound correlations. The reading specialist actually diagnosed dd with dyslexia, and dd's been working with a tutor through the reading specialist on a specific reading program which has made a huge difference - but it didn't give us what we needed to fully understand the impact of her associative memory challenge with respect to other academics, and it also didn't give us the documentation we needed for accommodations at school that had been recommended by both of dd's previous testers. SO... we were referred by dd's ped for a neuropsych exam. Keep in mind, we have an older ds who is 2e, and his neuropsych exams have been extremely valuable in understanding his challenges and in putting together a roadmap forward, so we expected that we would get at least some clarity from dd's neuropsych exam. But nooooo... the ability scores didn't match her previous ability scores, her achievement scores were off the charts (makes no sense, if you believed the ability scores), and the neuropsych pooh-poohed the extensive testing run by the reading specialist and insisted that dd's only issue with reading was that she was bored. I know enough about my dd to know that the neuropsych was totally out of touch with the eval... but just wanted to put that out there as an example of how complicated getting to the root of issues can be with gifted children.

    Again, sorry for the long ramble! Hopefully some of it helped smile

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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