Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy In Trouble!

Newbie to Davidson and to this Forum. Can use some advice, because we are in trouble. My son is an 8th grader at a well ranked Southern CA middle school. We knew he was bright, but individual testing very recently revealed him to be exceptional/profoundly gifted. Seems to explain his pattern of behaving disruptively (challenging, joking) in classes taught by his weaker teachers. Not acceptable, but he cannot seem to conform (or at least keep quiet) in these classes. He is also underachieving academically.

He is a wonderful kid -- extroverted, funny, trustworthy, honest, well-liked by peers and most adults. The gifted tester informed me he was unusual -- most kids with his IQ were like "little professors" but this child is a "guys guy" type, which seems to be quite true.

Unfortunately, after "many chances" the school informed me last week my son must attend 4th qtr 8th grade at another middle school in the district in a special, segregated small program for kids who can benefit from "more structure and attention", due to his disruptive behavior.

I was collecting information in preparation for advocating gifted differentiation in High School -- this has thrown me. I seek any advice on effective advocacy, best practices for helping my son. Thank you. p.s. family situation is stable, loving, supportive. Good health, no learning disabilities, etc.

Homeschool. Obviously the school for "problem kids" is out of the question. You could see if the current school will reconsider based on the testing results.

What is the school's explanation for his behavioral problems?

Have they even attempted to evaluate what might be at the bottom of it? You state underachievement-- so shouldn't the school be interested in this, too??

Sheesh-- what if it were a communication/interpersonal disability or a mental health issue?? Wouldn't they have an obligation to exercise child-find procedures?



I'd ask what they feel will benefit your CHILD in their recommended "placement change" at this time.

If there isn't anything, challenge them to provide evidence that his conduct is having a negative impact on other students, firstly, and secondly, that there is "nothing" more that they can do about this.

OF COURSE go in with documents in hand-- because that may open the door to accessing higher level material.

Have you considered a grade skip directly into high school?

I would ask them how many chances they had given your DS to be in educational environments suited to his ability level.

I would also suggest that "more structure" is likely to exacerbate any perceived issues with authority.

I would ask to see detailed complaints so I can understand exactly what we're talking about. Not interested in general, unsubstantiated teacher whining... I want documentation for each time he was sent to the dean's office that describes each incident in detail and what the plan was to resolve each issue.

I would also suggest that a segregated, small program is exactly the kind of educational environment that research supports for children like yours, but it should be defined by ability level, not disciplinary level.

Doesn't sound that odd in a gifted bored 8th grade boy. My son got in big trouble in his science class last year(the only class not honors) for doodling because the teacher thought he was drawing a caricature of her. He was just doodling because he was bored. She was the only teacher who didn't recommend him for honors in H.S.

I want to suggest homeschooling but some districts are very picky what class they have been in for placement in H.S. What math class is he in? In my District (also a well ranked So. CA district) if you homeschool you can not move back into accelerated/honors math, PERIOD. There are no exceptions, I was just talking with a mother who's 8th grader who gave up and is homeschooling him Algebra II because they hated the teacher (the one my son has) and the schedule was impossible. They only works because he will be going to private school next year. If he was to stay in the public school, he would have to have finished Algebra II within the system.

In my district admission into H.S. honors/AP are only allowed based on achievement. Until 8th grade, my son had to be placed in the honors class because he was tested as gifted even if he misbehaved. (We had misbehaving problems in 6th grade, that continued slightly into 7th.)

Not sure what to do honestly. Can you look into private schools for next year? Homeschooling? Online schooling?

Hopefully not too late for the traditional advocacy materials... ?

The list below contains just a few of the many advocacy how-to resources available free online and accessible to all.
1- Advocacy - Working with your child's school http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10558.aspx
2- Guidebook - Advocating for Exceptionally Gifted Young People, plus lists of other resources http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/browse_resources_165.aspx
3- Basic educational options for gifted children http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10270.aspx
4- Choosing the right school for your gifted child http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10511.aspx

There are also many helpful books, including A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children with Chapter 14 about finding a good educational fit, Academic Advocacy for Gifted Children by Barbara Gilman.

Iowa Acceleration Scale (IAS). http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/iowa_accel_scale.htm

For the immediate situation: To earn a second chance, some schools have accepted a student's essay on what they have learned (from the error of their ways). For example, if he has learned that he would not want to be separated from his friends and he understands that the price of this is exemplary behavior (list several specific positive behaviors), essentially becoming a role model and leader in this area, encouraging others to demonstrate respect. He may also have learned that being presented with an academic/intellectual challenge would help him maintain focus. You may wish to have him write his best heartfelt essay pronto and turn it in tomorrow, possibly multiple copies to teacher, principal, all decision makers. If it works, great. If not, it may become the basis for a college essay, scholarship essay, or book. You may wish to be the coach and think of this as serious DIY PR and "packaging". http://www.amazon.com/What-Schools-Other-Parents-toKnow/dp/0452289521, http://www.amazon.com/What-Colleges-Dont-Other-Parents/dp/0452288541.

Highly gifted at that age, I'd think it is time for a serious life goal discussion. He should be of a mind to discuss what things drive him, what he enjoys learning. What sort of experiences he wants. When in school has he been excited to go, etc. As well as planning on how he can take control of turning thngs around, asking himself why he ats as he does. Are there other avenues/approaches to get the same positive results without the negative. Also, might be a good time to find a semi-academic summer camp that will let him stretch and explore his capabilities like robotics or game programming, etc.

Well said. Kiddos develop internal locus of control, and take full responsibility for their decisions/actions.

Thanks to all of you for your advice and perspective; your comments are welcome and helpful. I'm on a learning curve for sure.

For what it's worth...some lessons learned so far:

1. One cannot assume that public schools, even "top ranked" schools, employ practices or protocols targeted to help a child in a specific academic or behavioral quandary. Schools may be primarily interested in protecting their institutional interests, and not the children. Or maybe administrators are just incompetent.

2. As a result, sometimes strategic and persistent parental advocacy is required (I know I'm singing to the choir, but this is new to me).

3. Parents of gifted kids should not rely on group test scores; esp. at the first sign of trouble, parents should have their child individually tested.

4. There is often a big difference between kids at different levels of giftedness. EG and PG gifted kids categorically (may) have different learning challenges.

5. Don't use yourself or your own experience, gifted or not, as a point of reference for guiding your child.

Do you agree?

Here is where I am:

I will advocate for my son at his existing school to better identify and address his needs. Hopefully he can return to his favored high school next year.

He'll finish next quarter at the alternative group scenario (unless it is dangerous), reinforcing to him that his actions and decisions will guide his future in a very tangible way.

I will continue to support him on his exciting individual journey, reinforce his interests and passions, expose him to everything possible, and trust that at the end of the day, his emotional development will catch up with his intellectual advancement. [P.S. His life goal at age 13 is to work in a record store, and he is unable to entertain a grander calling at this time.]

You've received posts with a lot of useful information. In reading point 5, a saying comes to mind: "When you've met one gifted child, you've met one gifted child!" That saying reinforces that each is a unique individual.

Wishing you well.

Check out the smaller program. Talk to those teachers and participants. See if they could come together even (maybe) for a meeting and include there parents if possible. The highly gifted parents are so right on and honest that maybe they will tell you exactly the pros and cons from their perspective.

Then, go with your gut instinct and don't hesitate to trust that reaction or instinct.

If you want to, you can analyze precisely what is giving you pause and then address those issues one by one with the right people depending on how your district works.

(First time through, parents have to get up to speed very quickly on how the district works. That process alone can take time. If you are new to that district, maybe you need an experienced person to assist so that you get good advice on what is going on there and how your highly gifted child figures into the big picture.)

Usually, I'd say, parents jump at the chance to have the much smaller teacher-student ratio. Depends on entirety of classroom situation though.

My opinion is that what is good for the profoundly gifted is also good for all of the other human brains that are developing right along with them because it raises everyone's standards and if we read the news we see that all humans want to see human society improve (Don't they?). Raising standards may do that.

Off the cuff, it sounds as though your child is going to be very successful, so (big picture) that will be great. Each year should get better and, in general, there will be teachers in high school who are thrilled to teach and challenge the profoundly gifted. They may have had the same childhood experience. (I am fondly remembering my Chemistry teacher in high school. She really was way ahead of her time, amazing, inspirational and aspirational.) So, hopefully, along with the disappointments there may be some pleasant surprises.

I totally agree with points 1-4, especially point 1, as regards top-ranked schools. It's always worth noting that those rankings only point out generalities, and such data is not useful for predicting individual outcomes.

As for point 5, I'd say that personal experience can be VERY useful, so long as the parent doesn't make the mistake of overly identifying with their child, understands how their child is different from them, and respects them as individuals with their own identities. Our children are still very much like us, so we have some unique insights into how our children will respond to certain environments based on our own personal experiences, where those similarities come into play. These augment our insights gained from observing our children over time, and the unique insights our spouses can offer based on their own, often different set of similarities to the children.

For example, I have so much in common with my DD in the cognitive domain that I've often joked that I have the user's manual to her brain. I can follow or lead her thoughts like nobody else. So when she entered K-1, I had some unique insights into exactly how the environment was fitting her, based on my own experiences. I was able to tell the teachers a number of things they would have seen from her, informed by my own experiences, and they confirmed them. My family chose not to skip me, and that was the right choice for me, based on a number of factors/concerns. I was able to tick off all of those points and show how they didn't apply to DD, so the correct choice for her was different.

DW, on the other hand, was able to provide unique insights into how DD was reacting to the environment, because she shares some personality traits with DD, particularly in the emotional domain.

I also agree with respect to Point 5; it has been quite helpful for me to understand what is happening with my son as I have already experienced most of it. With that in mind, his experiences are still different and he is a different person so while I can use my experience, he is not me.

Still, it's an advantage when advocating for him.

What about owning a record store? At least that gives you a loftier goal to work toward. I would think you could talk about what type of record store he wants to own, how he can get backing for such a business, what kind of education might be helpful, etc. If you talk about it conversationally, instead of lecturing, he might start to see a bigger picture on his own. Just a thought... but I get that it's difficult to see too far into the future for most 13 year olds.

Will there still be record stores when he graduates?

Dude, DD and I share the same basic model of brain, too-- so I understand completely what you are saying there. It is highly useful. The only down side is the perception (definitely not realistic) that this represents enmeshment rather than me simply understanding what makes her tick because she and I are so similar in our responses...

I wonder if it is because I'm female, or if it is more to do with sharing the same gender.

Anyway. Something that other parents with this level of intuitive insight into their kids might want to know-- it can look "enmeshed" to an outsider.

I sent you a private message (flashing envelope).

High-performing high schools may be better suited to mildly to moderately gifted students who are also high achievers. They give lots of homework, but nothing will be super-deep. This model works reasonably for a chunk of bright students, but the heavy workload can be stultifying. If the school is large, your son will likely get next to no personal attention. The smaller program may provide individualized attention, but the standards may also be low. I'm writing his as the parent of a HG+ tenth grader who has experience with both types of school in California. I think it's important to know this information so that you can make a informed decision. I suggest contacting the alternative school and talking to them at length about your son. People in alternative ed. tend to be more flexible than people at big high schools, primarily because a) their students don't fit the mold and b) they're a lot smaller.

Well, if you're looking for falsification to disprove the theory, look no further, because for my DD and I, it's definitely NOT related to shared gender.

DD's default emotional responses seem to be borrowed from her mom, so I'll leave that open to speculation, though.

Records...I had forgotten about those things.

Now that certainly brings back memories of elementary school.

No, I was more wondering if the perception that such a thing represents enmeshment is related to me being the female parent, or the fact that DD and I are female.

I already knew that the hive mind thing wasn't gendered. My dad and I shared it, too.

Ah, gotcha.

I can't say in our case. I'm the one who generally does the talking in meetings with the school, and if the staff think I'm enmeshed, they're not saying. One of my DD's teachers did use the word "involved" in a way that would have been written in italics, though. I was hearing helicopter blades, but enmeshment may have been closer to her design. She used it to describe both of us, not just me.

Of course, as a dad, the bar is set pretty low, and knowing my DD's teachers' names is considered awesome parenting.