Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Trying to decide what to worry about

My daughter is only in 3rd grade, and gets straight A's, so I know I don't really need to worry about anything. But, I'm a worrier, so her it is.

Our district does not screen for G&T until 3rd grade. In the fall, after 3 years of being far above grade level in reading and getting scores of 90-100% on every math, reading, SS, and science tests, she failed to qualify for the G&T program in our district.

The benchmark was the Iowa Assessments test.

She scored 82nd % in Reading, 94 % in written expression, and 72% in Math. I'm not exactly sure what the cutoffs were.... I think it was a composite of 92 (hers was 91) or a 90 in reading or 85 in math.

Her classroom teacher and I both talked to the principal and the G&T teacher, and it was decided that she should also take the CogAT to see if she could qualify that way, as our district requires passing 2 of 3 test to qualify for extra curriculum through our G&T program. The 3 tests are the Iowa Assessments, the district's GATES test, and the CogAT. She qualified with the GATES test, but not the Iowa Assessments.

So, she took the CogAT and did qualify for her G&T program in math.

Her CogAT test results were as follows, using grade 3/level B for the test
Area/Raw Score/USS/G%R
Verbal/41/175/54
Quantitative/49/195/77
Non Verbal/62/227/97

I'm very happy she qualified to be pulled for extra curriculum, as I know she's asked her teachers for 3 years for extra work during the school day. However, I'm wondering if I shouldn't ask what we can do at home to help with reading comprehension and vocabulary issues? Obviously, she has good reasoning skills, but perhaps, there is something going on with her reading skills, despite being above grade level?

I don't know anything about those tests, but it could have something to do with how they are administered. On my daughter's first NWEA Reading test in 2nd grade, she didn't do as well as she felt she could, because she had limited computer experience and didn't know there was a scroll bar until she was 1/3 of the way through. Also, some kids, despite how bright they are, don't do well with certain test formats. See if you can find someone who can explain the differences in the tests or talk to your daughter to get her thoughts. My daughter is a SLOW test taker, but given enough time, she gets off-the-chart scores. Every brain works differently, and I think it is awesome that you talked to the staff and got a different type of test to qualify. Your daughter's reading skills may be fine. Try reading to her and with her. Though our daughter loves to read, we still read to her (more advanced books), and I think it helps. Sometimes, we hand the book over to her and have her read to us. That way, we get a better idea of how she's doing.

Her reading score maybe because she is reading too quickly to get all of the details as required by the test. Or maybe she does what my girls do - they don't actually pay attention to all the details on the reading questions because they think they know what it says after reading only half the question. (They read a couple of words and finish it off in their heads the way they think it should go.)
I would have her read something and then answer some questions about ti and see what happens. You could either download something off the web or use a portion of a book you have and you make up the questions and write them down yourself. Don't ask the questions aloud because you want to see if she is reading them completely before trying to answer them. It is a fairly common problem with good readers.

First, chances are, you have nothing to worry about. I do have one question though, after reading your post. Did she get an "E" profile on the CogAT? From seeing what you posted here, that is my guess. Usually there is a "profile" that suggests how similar or dissimilar the subtest scores were. An "E" profile could be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to worry about, but some would see an "extreme" difference between scores as a reason to take a closer look or do more testing.

The only reason I would be concerned about an "E" profile and the comprehension issues you mention is that we have known an extremely bright child who scored high, even on achievement tests, who turned out to also have a LD. It took years to get a Dx, and this child was fantastic at compensating (which "masked" the LD). Bright DC can compensate for LDs for years and that can make them extremely difficult to diagnose.

CogAT testing certainly has its limitations and from posts on this forum, it appears to "miss" many children that do well on WISC or SB tests.

You could see if the school would be willing to do individual IQ testing, to reveal your DD's strengths and weaknesses in more detail. In addition to her nonverbal strengths, she may have an excellent memory or other strengths that are not revealed by a CogAT test.

Again, it is probably NOTHING to worry about! Wishing all of the best to you and your DD!

I've said this in a lot of other posts but i really hate the CogAT. My DD took it in second grade (a timed version) and left half of it blank because she's so slow (she has ADHD and processing speed issues). Her composite was something like 118. She then did a regular IQ test (WISC) and her GAI (which is like a verbal/non-verbal composite) was 150, or over the 99.9th percentile. The school didn't even bat an eye at the huge difference. They know they are giving a crappy test they just don't care. Luckily they did accept her WISC results though and put them in the system in place of the CogAT. They "spoiled" the CogAT scores but only after I sent about 8 emails complaining about it. Another girl I know scored around 118 the first time on the CogAT, her parents prepped her, and she scored >150 the second time. Everyone told her how amazing that is and how no one scores that high. Ummmm, the child was prepped. I do think the child is actually gifted, though, the CogAT just didn't pick it up. Other parents in our gifted chapter were talking about this test and how they prepped their kids to get the scores up because they didn't do well the first time. HATE, HATE, HATE the CogAT. If you are wondering about the verbal score and want her to get gifted services for reading as well, you could ask if there is another test she could take. If they won't do it you may want to have it done privately. I knew i could prep DD for the CogAT and get her score up but I wanted to find out if she really is gifted or not.

I did get my DD's computerized reading achievement test score up (another thing the district requires--they want high scores in everything) from around 92nd percentile to 97th by having her do reading practice tests. I bought her a 5th grade level book (she's in 3rd grade). Scholastic publishes the one I bought. The school doesn't give any instruction above a third grade level so I find it odd how they expect children to achieve above grade level on standardized testing (anything over the 90th percentile is about 2-3+ grade levels advanced, there is a huge range for reading). A lot of it boils down to children becoming savvy multiple-choice test takers, not how advanced their reading really is.

I find this is the most annoying thing in a lof of the GATE program tests. They want kids with above grade achievement without any teaching at school. What a parent to do if they don't afterschool their children?

... more bizarre still, children are shamed/penalized at school in K-2 for being "off task" when doing things that aren't in the scope of the curriculum, for being divergent thinkers, for being unwilling to stay within the "lines" as it were, and then suddenly in 3rd grade, they are tested to see which of them has managed to resist this kind of pervasive operant conditioning.
Those who are most resistant to operant conditioning, we'll identify at that point. The rest of them have apparently "evened out" by then.




Maybe "evened out" is actually code for "given up" or "become compliant."

I have to wonder just what that third grade selection process is actually selecting for-- because most HG+ kids simply can't take being that compliant with things that far from their proximal zones for years on end. Not without figuring out some coping on their own-- and most of that coping is going to be about on par with what one might expect 4-8yo children to come up with. Defiance, refusal, daydreaming, clowning, etc. all offer some rewards in a pretty unrewarding environment, after all. Sure, as an adult I see how those things are counterproductive or even maladaptive in the long run-- but for a 6yo, they offer immediate rewards, not the least of which is an alternative to doing mind-numbing things like an automaton.

My son and daughter both see a word and since it looks like another word they know, their brain assumes it's that word and then skips merrily along.

Part of it is that their brains are scanning ahead of where they are reading and predicting what they think it will say. For my son, if I ask him to read aloud, it's like his brain read it and paraphrased it before it comes out his mouth.

What I do is try to get him to slow down his reading. Have her read aloud with you and see if you can pick up on any cues that will let you know where she's going astray. I used to read chapters with my daughter then ask her about what happened. You could also read ahead and leave a sticky note in there at the end of the chapter if she's reading on her own without you. Sometimes you can find study guides for popular books online.

Mmm. The kids in my sons equivalent to first grade class evened out. Once the kids reached a certain level they were no longer given instruction. This meant the others could get extra help and the final assessment of where the brighter ones were could be done 1/2 to 2/3 of the way though the year. Voila! Evening out.

By Jove, I think you've got it.

Compounded by the fact that many, if not most, gifted children can master the K-2 curriculum very quickly (weeks? months?)... and many are through large parts of it by the time they reach first grade.