Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Need Advice Specific to Dysgraphia Please!

So, the school has this new proposal to help with DS's dysgraphia and I am really not sure about it at all. It could be good or it could be bad ... it could be disastrous. I think I need some BTDT advice and perspective for those who have dealt with dysgraphia!

So, the 'new idea' is to have the OT come into DS's advanced math class (which meets only once a week) to sort-of help DS with his reversals. Because, the thinking is DS does well with the OT during OT but his writing deteriorates in class because, well, he's working on math not writing and not his disability. I LIKE it that way - I want him to continue to soar, which he does when his disability is accommodated/worked around and/or otherwise is not an issue. I feel like his advanced math class is for math not dysgraphia/writing remediation. However, if this is generally a good and successful approach - I wouldn't want to deny DS something that could work. My two BIG concerns are DS looking even more 'disabled' - DS is very conscious of looking "special needs" right or wrong he is... he already is the only one at 8 who needs a scribe, he gets very upset at any type of intervention that looks like he has some sort of personal aid. He does not want to be any more obviously different due to his disability than he already is. However, the OT already did this last math class and DS must not have been bothered by his presence be/c he didn't mention it to me at all. I was also assured that OT hangs back and isn't hovering, etc. My other concern is that DS's advanced math class that he goes to to learn advanced math is becoming more OT where he math is secondary and he is working on his disability.

Not sure what to do. really not sure I want this in the IEP. The school psych who is now out on medical leave also said she's not sure about this how it would help and if it is a good idea. But she's unavailable now.

Any helpful thoughts, advice, insight are welcome please!

Incidentally, I hate to sound on someone who has given up on her son (b/c I haven't I just feel like we need to work around some things that just are hinderances and not going away)but DS has been working on reversals and using tricks for reversals and working on writing and doing OT since he was 4. I mean, really. Sometimes ya gotta kind-of move on.

All of your concerns are VERY valid Irena. 2e kids have so few times that they feel "ahead" of everyone. Why try to remediate at that particular time?

Also, conventional wisdom is to completely separate handwriting from substance for dysgraphic kids. The nature of dysgraphia is that the act of handwriting fills up the working memory with no room for substantive learning in addition. The handwriting work will undoubtedly interfere with his math. Again, why displace math work with remedial handwriting? What a poor trade off!

At some point remediation needs to give way to accommodation. I am not sure at what age or stage, but if your DS is not making progress with remediation, perhaps his IEP should add more aspects that minimize handwriting with technology and phase the scribing out. There are lots of great programs and apps to do that, even for math.

I seem to remember that your school is strangely suspicious of dysgraphia. Do you think that is driving what is going on here?

Very early on in my 2E journey I attended a multiple day training on advocating in the IEP process for kids with learning disabilities. One of the presenters (on Assistive Technology) was the director of a local special ed school. She referred to "dysgraphia" using air quotes and rolling her eyes as she said it. She made the comment that "true dysgraphia" does exist but is very rare. She seemed to imply that every parent whose kid has sloppy handwriting tries to get them labeled as "dysgraphic". I have not been impressed by what I have heard about their program so I didn't give it much thought. I assume, though, that if the director of a special ed school felt this way it is probably a school of thought and might be driving some of the suspicion.

Of course my DD has had 2 neuropsychologists label her as dysgraphic so even if our school district felt this way they would have to accommodate. As with so many things with our kids different experts can look at the same set of facts and categorically insist that different interpretations are correct.

Irena - at a certain point I started pushing for moving away from handwriting for DD. "It is obvious that handwriting is not going to be successful as a means of communication for her." The OT at our public was insistent that keyboarding was inappropriate before 5th grade. The AT evaluation disagreed. Now at her out of district placement she uses her iPad throughout her day. Doing math on her iPad made all the difference. There are many options for apps that will allow him to be successful in math and work around his challenges. If they want to use his strength in math to help remediate his dysgraphia they can do that during OT time. I don't think they have to take time away from math class if he enjoys it. It MAY be that they are trying to go through his strengths to address his weaknesses, which may indicate that someone has finally started doing some homework on 2E. If so it may be a clumsy attempt but indicate a potential move in the right direction...

I have been going through a somewhat similar struggle, when to switch to technology and give up on the handwriting. My ds is 11, 5th grade, so it was easier for me to decide to make the switch. We are diagnosed dyslexic but suspecting dysgraphia, since lots of issues have not corrected themselves.

We also have been dealing with lots of self doubt, stress, and some anxiety this year. The workload got to be too much, slow reading and slow writing. He reached a point of just really shutting down, grades went down, and feeling aweful. The homework wars were starting at home since he really never wanted to get started on something he hated. I needed a break and so did he.

I set him up with an IPAD and keyboard and learningally account over the weekend. It is a night and day difference. He can actually feel like he can keep up with the pace without relying on me all the time to scribe or read for him. We will see how it goes, but how long do you work on handwriting before you just say enough?

I have the philosophy that we should remediate everything as much as possible, all the smaller skills. The younger they are the easier it is. I also have the philosophy that kids need to enjoy learning, feel successful at something, and not live a stressed out life.

If it were me, I would ask for an alternative. I would hate to poison the one time in the day where he feels so smart, successful, and not different.

I also wouldn't discount technology. It would be much easier to incorporate a great math app because he is successful without the OT there.

Only you can make the decision.

Speaking of technology, I added dragon speak app, speach to text app.

I also got Learning Ally audio books to use at school and at home, as needed. We are partly remediated, but stamina is a big issue as he gets older.

Anyone have any other apps you would recommend for dyslexic/dysgraphic kid?

Thanks all. Exactly my concerns.

Fwiw, the school is accommodating. Of course, to get these accommodations I had a huge battle with the school last year and the accommodations are mostly based on his diagnosis of EDS and the pain it causes in his hands rather than dysgraphia. Genetisist wrote a note to the school saying use of scribes, computer and technology rather than physically writing was medically necessary. I think it's the only reason they stopped fighting me on the accommodations. He gets scribes and he types a lot of his work (particularly lang. arts/writing workshop stuff) on the computer. He still does most of his math on worksheets. For questions where he has to do writing (like 'explain your answer' or 'create your own word problem') a person scribes for him. Otherwise with numbers and computation and such he's been on his own. And all of his numbers are reversed. He will also do tons in his head to avoid writing. School put Panther Math Paper on the ipads for him and see how that goes; but, unfortunately the panther math app does not seem to allow one to pdf worksheets, which they are disappointed about (God forbid we do something other than worksheets!). I am not sure why they think having the OT in math class is good idea. I did find out from DS that Mr. OT does come in during writing and writing workshop to support/help with typing and keyboarding. That seems okay, I guess - DS says he's fine with it. And I like that it is moving him on beyond the disability to developing a skill that it appears he has no trouble acquiring - typing. I guess they want to extend the same idea to math class and the reversals? I really don't know. It seems suspicious to me.

ETA I routinely find other students work in my son's school bag (apparently my kid is not the only with EF issues LOL) Anyway, just tonight I got found another classmates writing in my sons bag. This student wrote about 6 or sentences - a whole paragraph .. beautifully (I mean clearly written by a 7 or 8 year old but really nice) - no reversals, nothing. MY DS could NEVER accomplish that. Unbelievable. I shudder to think how bad off he'd be if he had no accommodations.

OK, I'm going to answer first without reading the replies, then I'll go back and read them

So fwiw, I would NOT allow them to do this at all. Both for the reasons you've written above (math should be about math, not handwriting OT - for all the reasons you listed), and (jmo) I think they may be a bit misguided in their OT effort. I absolutely think OT is a good thing to do - our dysgraphic ds went through around 9 months of OT after he was diagnosed at 8, and it helped him develop legible handwriting, and workable pencil grip, posture etc and eliminated wrist pain. All that was *very* worthwhile. What it didn't do was "cure" his dysgraphia. He still accidentally switches numbers around and makes a ton of copying mistakes when he is working through math problems by hand, and he still has to semi-consciously think about how to form each number/letter when he writes. IMO, if the school wants to help your ds with *math* accommodations, then they should be helping him learn how to type out his math on his iPad. If they want to offer OT for him to learn proper posture, letter formation etc, that's great - but do it as a pull-out that is focused only on the handwriting remediation, and when he's in class, have him using his accommodations.

OK, so I can get a bit passionate about that lol! FWiW, my opinions on the subject were strongly shaped first by my ds' neuropsych, who recommended when he was first diagnosed that we do what we can to help ds learn how to write his letters and have him go through OT to remediate posture, grip, etc... and then let it go and focus on AT. More than 6 years down the road, I realize how right (at least for our ds) that advice was.

Now I'm going back to read the replies

polarbear

Irena, you absolutely don't sound like someone who is giving up on your son - just look at all you are doing for him!

I do understand though how people who don't understand dysgraphia may feel like it's "giving up" - I was imagining that very thing about *me* as I was writing my reply - thinking about how other folks would read what I wrote and think I was advocating taking the easy way out and letting my ds down by not making him stick with handwriting. But that's just it - they have a disability. They can't use handwriting like a neurotypical student can. Would you tell your ds to not wear his glasses during math if he needed them to see? Would you ask a vision therapist to come in and do vision therapy at the same time he's being instructed in math?

No way!

And no, no way are you giving up on him - you're doing an excellent job of standing up *for* him!

polarbear

Re the questions above about when to switch from remediation to accommodation, the decision is going to be very individual of course. but fwiw, we started working with accommodations right away after diagnosis (ds was 8 and in 2nd grade). I don't mean that he had access to them at school right away - that took quite a bit of advocating! But we let him start using learn-to-type programs immediately (this was on the laptop, he was in school pre-iPad - wow, if he's sounding old I must be *ancient* lol!).

His exact neuropsych recommendation was to first try Handwriting without Tears at home so that he could learn how to form his letters consistently as best he could - that was a total fail. He was in too much pain to be able to sit down and work on it, plus it was beyond frustrating for an 8 year old to be told to make his hands do something that they just wouldn't do. His handwriting looked significantly better after his OT in 3rd grade, but it just looked better - he was still dysgraphic. He's had two neurospych evals now (one in 2nd grade, one in 5th) and both state very specifically that he can not rely on handwriting to show his knowledge.

So again, jmo, but for any child who's dysgraphic, I would not put off incorporating AT into their school work no matter how young they are. If anything, I think it helps starting out younger.

I also think it's important to not focus on scribing as anything more than a short-term accommodation. Our kids need to be learning how to be independent, not dependent on others. And having access to a scribe isn't always easy at school.


OK, I realize this isn't *totally* convenient, but is there a reason that the school can't either:

a) Let your ds write and store his answers in a Panther format file? Is it really critical that he write directly in the boxes below the problem explanation on the worksheet?

or b) Is there some reason they don't want to scan the worksheets in as pdfs? If they do that, your ds could cut and paste his answers into the worksheets... although that's a bit much to expect a young student to do.

BTW, if that sounded like I was lecturing you, I wasn't! I was simply annoyed at your school


This made me giggle! Back in 2nd-5th grade my ds' teachers were soooo all over how incredibly unorganized he was (as if they wanted everyone to forget about the dysgraphia)... I really didn't have enough of a snapshot into the other student's lives at his school to get a glimpse of how "out there" my ds' lack of EF skills was... and then when he moved on to middle school and all the kids had lockers and hung out in the hall talking after school and suddenly I could see (and hear about).. the general level of EF among the "typical" kids at school... and fwiw, I am occasionally surprised that over 75% of the class does't need help with EF skills :lol:



By the time my ds was midway through 2nd grade, he was clearly the only child still making reversals. None of the kids except ds were making reversals in 3rd grade. I'd really strongly suggest for any of the new parents here (suspecting dysgraphia) - if you have your suspicions and are still seeing reversals etc in 2nd grade, and your child's teacher is still saying "oh, that's normal!", *ask* to see other children's written work and compare for yourself.

polarbear