Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional District too inept to do eval

I suspect DD has another issue besides ADHD causing slow writing and slow processing. I don't think she would qualify for an IEP because her achievement is so high, but we need to figure out what to put in a 504. But everyone in the district seems so inept no one would know what to test for. The special ed administrator (who has obviously worked in special ed education), didn't know what dysgraphia is. No one seems to know basic disabilities. And he didn't suggest evaluating her even after I kept going on about the child find mandate and how at some point someone is going to sue the district.

Are parents who are stuck in this situation just forced to pay for a private eval? If I say that I'm going to do this because they are inept, they will say "Ok, so you're waiving your right to an eval then." But then if I do agree to an eval, they will do an eval that's not appropriate and that stuff will be stuck in her school records. How would they evaluate for a disability if they don't know the basics of disabilities or testing?

I should have worded that differently. Waiving my right to a school eval because I think they are inept (therefore we'll just have to have a private one). But this really irritates me because we'll be forced to pay out of pocket. The school district is incompetent, so parents have to pay for their own eval.

Blackcat... even if you were to get a school eval and they were competent - chances are you'd still need a private eval. My kid is pretty severely dysgraphic b/c he simply can not write and yes some of it EDS but the majority is dysgraphia and the school did an entire eval on my insistence allegedly specifically for dysgraphia and dyslexia and it seemed pretty useless. The report said very little about his writing difficulties. I was all excited thinking I would get somewhere and all I really got were some recommendations for executive functioning skills. I still needed an outside eval and dx. And even that seems to have little effect. This year the psych was supposedly pretty jarred by DS's writing issues in math class when she was observing for inattention and seems to be taking it more seriously. But, really, one needs a private diagnosis on it. My school is actually pretty good and they are not nearly as idiotic as your school sounds but still dysgraphia just isn't very well addressed. It's like there is this big pink elephant standing in the room and everyone wants to pretend it's not there and they just keep looking all around it. It's odd. I feel like with this ADHD eval I am hoping for one of two results - adhd to be properly diagnosed (to the point where I really feel comfortable that the diagnosis is correct) and try some meds; or for someone to come out and say that that DS's dysgraphia is causing what seems adhd and needs to be better accommodated or something like that. It seems to me like my Ds's school is all over anything behavioral - adhd, executive functioning, atypicality, asd, etc. but can not seem to understand or wrap their minds around dysgraphia. Now, like I said, this year is getting better as they said they are going to have DS use Panther Math Paper! (YAY! although I had to propose that - they didn't know about or come up with that themselves).) But DS also has an EDS dx and a letter saying that keyboarding and technology to use in lieu of DS physically writing is "medically necessary." So I think I just get more elverage with that Dx than I do with dysgraphia.

A sum of my situation is as follows: I think/suspect that my DS's "behavioral issues" - his inattention, his adhd like behavior are very likely symptoms/by-products of dysgraphia but no matter how much the school evaluates him, no matter how much they observe him, no matter how awful and fraught with reversals his written work is OI never see them actually use the word dysgraphia or address it directly. Why? I really have no idea.

Anyway, it just seems like an awful lot of schools can not identify or deal with dysgraphia. The eval the school did for my DS last year ostensibly to identify dysgraphia and/or dyslexia resulted in nothing helpful at all. Even though DS's profile just screams dysgraphia! After the eval, the focus of the school switched to executive functioning and actually major direct attempts to take away my son's writing accommodations.

Thanks, I'll look at all of that.

They did take the outside report we have which lists possible modifications in the classroom, and said they can write a 504 based on that, but that just looks at ADHD and slow processing but doesn't get into what the cause of the slow processing is. So what if it's something like dysgraphia? It seems like we would need specific modifications for that. So they keep saying that they are willing to write a 504 and I keep saying that I think there's something else going on, they never really offer to evaluate, and we go around and around. If I requested an eval in writing, I'm not sure what they would do, but I don't want the toxic school she is in to do any kind of eval, esp. since no one seems to know about basic disorders.
Whoops, there have been more posts, I was just responding to MON's post and haven't read other replies. I'm spacing out.

Irena, thanks. I think we will need an outside eval, but am trying to figure out what the school is legally required to do. I'm not going to have them do anything this year but what if we wait til next year when she is a new school (hopefully a more competent one).
I haven't read any links yet, but I thought with child find mandate, the school is obligated to evaluate children suspected of having disabilities. We already have some outside reports showing ADHD and a processing issue and the teacher is seeing problems in the classroom. So wouldn't the school then be obligated to conduct an eval, whether or not a parent requests one?

Well, I know in my state if the school refuses to do a competent eval or the eval they did was incompetent/not reliable, you can legally force them to pay for your private eval. I could have done that but the time, expense and frustration just wasn;t worth it to me. But it can legally be done.

For whatever it is worth, we were denied a 504 in public elementary school even with an official diagnosis of dyslexia from the top hospital in the state. The principal claimed that a major life area is not limited because he is just a little behind in reading, not two grade levels (apparently IEP range here). I think I could have had a great appeal. There is nothing that says a kid has to be below grade level to qualify. For a 504 you just need a diagnosis. It doesn't have to be school testing. I think you would need school testing for an IEP.

I also contacted the dyslexia parent adocacy group in our state, and she said that an ADD or ADHD diagnosis is almost automatic 504 approval. I don't really get that, since both should be a reason to have one. If the child is not living up to his/her potential and has an actual learning disability, it really shouldn't matter if they score high or low on random tests.

I think the modifications/accomodations would need to be written up as specific to your child. Some of the most common ones for either ADHD or LD are.

Extended time/reduced assignments
reminders to turn in work (my friend's daughter who is ADHD needs this every day)
Notes provied (as they get older this becomes important)
Not being counted off for spelling/grammar (this is important for LD)
Keyboarding accepted

And then it becomes more specific to the child.

added breaks, etc.


I think the ADHD is probably easier to get a 504 because it typically is not convenient to the teachers. LD on the other hand, can be a kid who is completely silent.

That has been my experience with the whole process. Most schools, with the exception of our horrible elementary school which I pulled my child from, typically approved 504 because the accomodations/modifications are not that difficult to implement. Now, 504 says nothing about remediation, nothing about extra instruction. It is only modification and accomodations.

Also, the school doesn't actually test for a specific disability. They are going to say LD, and not specify what they have. I haven't actually looked at the test results, but they constantly told me "we do not diagnose". They just see if your child "qualifies". My experience is they try to look for a reason to say you don't qualify unless the results are indisputable.

My friend in another state has an IEP for her ADHD daughter. She had to have the school evaluate for that but she also got independent diagnosis to confirm it. Her district has been much better at making sure kids get IEP or 504.

My district wants to deny everyone unless their hand is forced. I have no idea why some approve easier and others don't. Most of the schools I have been at would put a 504 in place with any outside diagnosis.

What are you trying to acheive? That will determine which way you want to go.

I want a 504 for future teachers to prevent some of the strange things that are happening now. For instance, she is kept in from recess to finish work or tests. She gets half of the words on her spelling tests marked wrong because she is slow with writing and leaves blank words. She has a ton of copying homework (spelling) which takes hours. She just does everything too slow.

When she is not medicated, then things become even more complicated, in that she does nothing at all. If I sent her in unmedicated regularly, honestly I think she would need an aide and some pretty major classroom modifications. But luckily with her meds what we are mainly seeing is just slow processing. Her teacher asked if we could try reducing her meds so I did. She became very happy and social and delightful but could not accomplish any work whatsoever. Teacher said, please, can we raise dose back up.

Ugh. This upsets me. Her happiness (a mere child) is sacrificed to make it easier on the teacher and school. What she needs is less meds and a scribe and word processing access. That is what my DS gets otherwise he'd be in the exact same boat because his ability to write is none-existent and dysgraphics write each letter very slowly they have to think about how to form each letter and number - EVERY time - it takes up so much energy, time and attention. But you know that is what she needs and that is why you need a diagnosis and accommodations of dysgraphia. I totally understand.

My son has to type his spelling words otherwise he never gets the tests done. Ever. Not even close. Teacher, despite his strong IEP, was resistant but of course I had to get involved and straighten her out.

blackcat, I think what you really need is the step that comes before putting accommodations in place - you need an accurate diagnosis of what's at the root of the issues you're seeing. You suspect there is more going on than ADHD, and you have good reason to. You'd like to have the school district give you what you need, but there's a bit of a fundamental difference between where you are coming from and the services that school districts are obligated to provide. The school is going to be looking at the *impact* on access to education (of whatever the challenge is); a private eval is going to look at impact across life functions. Please forgive me if I haven't stated that clearly... it's still early in the morning here and I'm not 100% awake yet

You can choose to spend your time fighting the good fight to get everything you need from the school district (and mon has given you great advice about how to go about that above), but (jmo), what you need for the long run (for your dd) is a clear diagnosis.

As expensive as it may be to get a private eval, I'd look forward and think - what is going to happen if she doesn't get a private eval now and is still struggling with many of these same questions 10 years (or less) down the road when she's in college or she's a young adult out on her own? It's most likely going to be even more difficult for her as a young independent just-starting-out adult to pay for an eval, plus I'd also think through how you might feel if she does find out at 20 that she's dysgraphic instead of finding out now - are you going to wish you'd had the diagnosis earlier? Is she?

So anyway, I'd step back and instead of focusing on what she needs for accommodations as the first line of concern, focus on what you and she need for clarity (an understanding of - is this all ADHD, or is it a combo of ADHD and some other issue). The clearest way I can see to get there is a private neuropsych eval, if there's any way you can get one. Once you have the eval, you'll have a diagnosis (or not, depending on the findings), and then you will have that report and clarity to use as data when advocating for the accommodations your dd needs at school.

I'd also add, that even if the neuropsych eval turns up only ADHD and nothing else you should still be able to request accommodations for what you've listed above with ADHD being the reason she needs the accommodations.


I personally feel that suggesting something like this is overstepping the bounds of the role of the teacher - she's not a dr. OTOH, it sounds like perhaps the teacher sees an issue and wants to help your dd. If this is the case, hopefully you will be able to count on her classroom observations in support of your advocating for accommodations. The thing is, her support will be more effective if *you* have a clear picture of what's causing the issue, rather than relying on a teacher to give input based on assuming what's at the root of the challenge. OK, I am sure I totally did not explain that very well! Hopefully it makes a little bit of sense

Hang in there,

polarbear

Nothing much to add to Polarbear's excellent advice above-- but a couple of quick thoughts.

1. THEY had better not be writing any 504. YOU need to be part of this picture, as well-- you know, since you are one of the world's foremost experts on... your child.


2. 504 is about access-- which is, clearly, being denied to your child relative to classmates. This is completely unacceptable.

3. Diagnosis isn't qualification under 504. This is significantly different than IEP/IDEA. Diagnosis also doesn't lead to a particular menu of accommodations for a particular condition. Ergo-- you may not NEED additional documentation. You see a problem, the teacher sees a problem. Do you both see some obvious solutions? It sounds as though you do-- and that may be all that is needed for those accommodations to be put into action. The ADHD is sufficiently impairing that it qualifies her, yes? Particularly now that ADAA says that mitigating measures (medication) aren't to be allowed when considering eligibility.

4. Consider which life activities are "impaired." If there are checkmarks missing-- FILL THEM IN. This stuff really matters later on.

5. Lillie-Felton. Performance isn't the measure of impairment.

In defense of the teacher, she didn't really ask to reduce her meds. What happened was that her patch basically fell off in the middle of the day, and I asked the teacher how it went. The teacher said that she did not seem unfocused, and she didn't see any issues even though the patch was probably only on a few hours. And DD had much more personality and enthusiasm. So I said that if she really seems fine without it, we could try without and see what happens, and the teacher seemed to really like that idea. I should have been more clear about that. We tried without the patch, and I just gave her her pill in the morning (normally she gets both). She was relatively Ok until late morning and then fell apart, apparently. I don't have a problem with medicating her. Yes, she is more cheerful when she is not medicated but we can't have her in La-La land acting like a happy drunk person.
I am going to meet with the teacher after school tomorrow. The teacher said we should try to figure out a plan for her (i.e. informal modifications). I don't know why she has continued scoring spelling and whatnot with unfinished words, but she will probably be open to listening to my concerns about it. We'll see.
I guess I don't even know where to take her for an eval. Her primary doctor is trying to figure out a referral for a psychiatrist with the Children's hospital, but I doubt a psychiatrist would be able to figure out something like dysgraphia (if that's what it is). The neuropsych I took DS to at the university does not see kids like DD. He saw DS because he had a brain injury.
I took her to an OT but the OT could not diagnose dysgraphia and didn't seem to think that was the problem anyway.

I think you got some really good advise. I would definitely start with getting my own neurophsych evaluation. I was able to get my insurance to actually pay for it. I was surprised because I heard many times they deny the claim. You may want to find out if it is covered. I did have to go to a preferred provider, but there were plenty of qualified ones.

I also would not want the teacher telling me when to increase or decrease the dose. It sounds like there is a lot more going on than just ADHD. If I were you, I would want to know exactly what is going on myself before I approach the school.

The impact also sounds like an IEP would be more appropriate to me. It carries more weight and is taken more seriously in the school system. You have more protections as a parent if there is a teacher who doesn't follow it. I worked as a teacher before, when surprisingly I knew so much less about IEP and 504, even though I had kids with them. Many teachers do not get training in this area, so are ill equipped to provide guidance on what to do.

The teacher should definitely start with accomodations and modifications even before everything is complete. If the teacher refuses, then just modify it yourself. I have been known to write a note indicating we would not be completeing an assignment or we will be doing it this way. I would also put my foot down and tell them that my child will no longer be staying in for recesss to finish anything. It is counterproductive. Let them know you are in the process of getting a complete evaluation, but you need these measures in now until more permanent solutions can be found.

You truly are your child's best advocate. Next year your child will have a different teacher, and that teacher will have moved on with a new class. Do what you think it right.

It's probably illegal to provide accommodations "informally" without inclusion in a 504 plan. Because providing them at all is an admission that they are necessary, see.

So I think that the teacher's intentions are good-- but I might get together with the teacher and (friendly-like, since you have a good working relationship) say; Look, I think that we both have some really good ideas and observations-- what do you say we take this back to the 504 team and tweak a few things in the 504 plan? You know, make it easier for a new classroom teacher (next year) to figure out ways to make this work.

Ultimately, she's already a QID. Get it into the 504 plan-- you don't NEED to provide a diagnosis in addition to the qualifying one.

We know this-- because DD has things in HER 504 plan that have no relationship at all to her disability-- but they are educational modifications/accommodations that she seems to need, either way.

Of COURSE pursue private evaluation for yourself and your child. But it isn't clear to me that the school even NEEDS to be in that loop at the moment.

The school is willing to write a 504 and will probably put in there what I want (within reason). After the fiasco with DS and me pulling him out and upper level admin getting involved, they will write a 504 without making a fuss. They know a 504 is not difficult and at the most it inconveniences the teacher a bit. But the problem is that I don't know what I want or what she really needs. I think it would be hard to justify something like typed spelling words, unless there is some indication that she has dysgraphia or a writing disability. So the 504 will be written as if she is simply unfocused with slow speed, when it may be a writing disability. I suppose we can go back and change it later but I don't know if it's worth the time/hassle. Oops, we have more info now, let's re-do it.

It will have to be looked at every year anyway, so if it was me, I would write in what is pertinent now and possibly in the next year. Reduced assignments and extra time is a common modification of all sorts of diagnoses. She can prove she knows the spelling words and practice them so many different ways. She can spell them orally to the teacher. She can practice them whichever way works for her. Or, if spelling is a huge issue, she can have less words. A 504 is not legally neccessary for a teacher to do what is right for a kid. When I was a teacher, it was totally in my control, to modify/change, reassess, work with a child any way I thought was right. I didn't need a 504 or IEP to do that.

I told the school I want to at least wait until I can take her into a specialist. In another week or so we will have a better idea of what district/school she will be in in the fall. So I'll talk to the teacher, see what she thinks, and then go from there. If it seems like it will be a hassle to get an outside diagnosis in a reasonable amount of time, then I'll have them proceed so we at least have something for the fall with a new teacher.

You have gotten really good advice already. I just want to reiterate that the school is not equiped or supposed to produce a medical diagnosis. That's up to your private medical professional. However, the school, in conjunction with you, is supposed to come up with accomodations that will address the functional deficiencies in the classroom. For example, if your DD needs a scribe, or a computer, or extra time or reduced work, then that is what they must provide but they are not required to determine/label her as dysgraphic although they may do some basic tests to affirm her functioning levels.

What about dysgraphia though? or dyslexia? Because those aren't really medical disorders, they are more learning disabilities. Our medical insurance would say that anything that has to do with "learning" is the school's job to evaluate.

Start by saying she is not to be kept in at recess for incomplete work - preferably for ever but at least until she has had an evaluation and got accomodations sorted.

I had blue cross/blue shield and they paid for the dyslexia full testing because it is neurological. I am not sure about dysgraphia. I put that in my paperwork that I was concerned about that too, but I don't think we really were tested for that. Although, if I knew then what I know now, I would have asked for that testing as well. I had to pay my regular deductable, but most of it was covered.

School can't legally diagnose anything. They can only identify educational needs, which is vastly different.

If you suspect something like an LD, most kinds of health insurance will cover a private eval. In our county you can also get financial help from the county to cover the eval.

Ok, well we switched insurance and now have Blue Cross. But they won't cover any testing regarding ADHD which is the same as the old plan. I don't know specifically about LD's. Schools should at least be able to tell if child has a "disorder of written expression" even if they don't label it as a disability. If the school doesn't know anything about dysgraphia, I'm not sure they would be competent enough to choose tests that would pick up the issue.

"Should" is one thing. "Can" is another.

Our experience with school psychs is that they have Master's degrees, and they are about as qualified as a psychometrician. That is, they are not equipped to do differential diagnosis as a neuropsychologist would be. They also often do not have access to or expertise about the specific assessments that would best help you pinpoint issues.

If you really want to know what's going on, I'd use a private neuropsych. If you really want school to act on what's going on, I'd use a private neuropsych in parallel with the school's eval process, and provide the school copies of the private data for anything that you really want done correctly.

This page on the Wrightslaw website has a bunch of links about response to intervention that you might find interesting. It almost sounds like the school, by having the teacher get together with you informally, may be looking to do a response to intervention process. http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/rti.index.htm

I agree with puffin to make a point to mention the recess issue.

Ok, thanks everyone. I'm going to talk to teacher later, we'll see what she says about the situation.

I talked to the teacher and it turns out that DD hasn't been filling out her "planner" for the last 2 months. She is supposed to be copying a sentence each day about what the math homework is, and each week write a list of spelling words. I thought the teacher had just stopped having them do this. Teacher mentioned that she is having the kids write down the spelling words and I said "her planner has been blank." Teacher was shocked and said that DD always looked like she was writing. So basically DD has "given up" (on that at least). I looked back at her planner and there are a couple weeks where she wrote a couple words, but that's pretty much it. On spelling tests, she misses a bunch of words and the ones she does write down are all out of order. This can't be normal even for a kid with ADHD! Teacher is going to try to have someone give her the words she missed but I don't know how this is going to work.

I talked to a private psych about all this and he asked the WISC scores and was quite taken aback, esp with her non-verbal score being 99.9th+ percentile. He said that he can do a comprehensive eval but doesn't think insurance would cover it because usually school systems are expected to do this. I explained that our school system is completely inept and they don't even know what dysgraphia is. He said that he is going to look into some things with insurance and call me back. I am debating calling the State and seeing if I can get the school district to pay for a private eval if our insurance won't cover it.

Have you tried talking with your insurance company? I don't think they are likely to pay for a strictly educational evaluation, but they may pay if your daughter is legitimately having associated issues (like anxiety and depression) or if there is any chance of a learning disability. It doesn't sound like there are those sorts of issues, but I mention it just in case it makes a difference. My daughter's first evaluation was paid for by insurance because she was having difficulty (she was so miserable at school that she was becoming very anxious and we were able to get a report supporting her grade acceleration, which made an immediate improvement). They didn't pay for her second evaluation because she was doing fine at that point and it was just for more information (and I thought it was fair they didn't pay at that point).

If you don't have it the book From Emotions to Advocacy could be very useful.