Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Things are about to get challenging...

So, we have been trying to advocate for our ds6 for the last 1 1/2 years. It hasn't gone very well.

We thought after we got him privately tested, the school would be willing to give ds what he needs- not so much. He is "reviewed for gt", but we're guessing he did not qualify. We will find out in the next week. (They are refusing to use outside testing, and Cogat wasn't good enough. He needs to qualify in 3 areas. He is 99% in achievement and has teacher recommendation.) It's very frustrating.

My dh wants to appeal. I do not. We met with the tester for advice. She said our district HAS accepted her scores in the past- annoying. She also didn't recommend appealing. She did say, we'd win; but at what cost? Is that worth it to us financially and emotionally. We also have a younger ds. Not only all that, but what if its STILL not enough? (Which I'm guessing will be the case.)

Of course there is an amazing gt school close by, but the cost would be a financial struggle (or I'd have to work full-time). I am confident about wanting to homeschool, atleast till middle school. Also, it is the least worst option for our entire family. Dh doesn't think homeschool is the right choice for social reasons. What I've tried to explain to dh is ds has no friends at school, doesn't want a play date, doesn't want a party. School isn't providing what he needs socially either.

I realize I am just venting. I just wish school was different for my ds. I wish my dh was onboard with homeschool. I really just wish every single day that ds was happy- or atleast happier.

Thanks for listening:)

Can you get a full-time job?

Why not suggest to your husband that you try it for a year and then re-evaluate? Worst case he goes back to school after a year and best case he thrives and stays home. You can assure him that you will join a home school group and certain sports/cultural/play clubs too. (There is cubs also that offers great social interaction)

This is what I had to do initially to get my husband on board.

(Then he suggested we give the school "one more go". Then when our child was broken and needed therapy husband was the one that insisted we take him out and reminded me of the way I suggested it at the beginning!)

This is also true! Our children's "social" skills are greatly improved since we started homeschooling - even if just in them recognising that they need to be kinder etc.

Here's problem with homeschooling for a year, learned the hard way at our house.

Schools won't accept courses that aren't taught by accredited institutions. I taught algebra 2 to my son last year because we didn't like the online courses we found. When he went to the local high school this year, they wouldn't give him credit for the course or for another course he did with me. So now he's behind on credits. This sounds bad, but he it could have been much worse. His counselor initially told us that they might make him repeat algebra 2! Then there was a bit of a mixup, and in its midst, he just got enrolled in precalculus. We kept our mouths shut. I should add that what I taught was way more rigorous that the local high school's course.


Local middle schools (public/private) have said the same thing about me teaching algebra to my daughter, and I'm only trying to persuade them to let her skip pre-algebra and just do their algebra course. In their minds, there is a procedure, and it must be followed. Anything off the path doesn't count.

What I've learned is that the schools can be resistant even to testing out of a course. It sounds so reasonable to just test the kid, but my impression is that they don't see things that way. If you aren't accredited, they don't trust what you've taught or what the kid has done, even if you used their book and even if the kid got a very high score on a standardized test. If you don't do all the work in front of them, it doesn't count.

I know, this is nuts.

There is the option of online classes, but quality varies widely and they don't always solve the problem (your child may have to plod through all the assignments or may get zero live instruction or assessment may be via multiple choice tests).

Hence my first comment. If that other school is really great, I would look seriously at it. Otherwise, I would hesitate to homeschool without ensuring that you know what will happen on the other side when your child wants to go back to school. Which he will, unless you're prepared to homeschool through 12th grade (which has been done, of course).

Yes. true.

But as I said, I would hesitate to homeschool without ensuring that you know what will happen on the other side when your child wants to go back to school.

ETA: a message I answered has gone missing.

I disagree with the policies you have mentioned but their existence is easy to explain:

(1) The gaps in lifetime earnings between people with people with BA's, high school diplomas, and those with no high school diploma are enormous. It would be great if high-end employers recognized the math and programming schools that my eldest child is developing outside of school, without his getting a B.S. degree, but I see little sign this is happening.

(2) Given (1), parents, students, and taxpayers feel compelled to spend enormous amounts on education.

(3) Don't expect the people making comfortable livings granting the credentials to be receptive to alternative ways of certifying what has been learned. That could put some of them out of work.

As Upton Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!".

But you made good points, and I obscured mine, which is, as you say, to do the homework.

Yes, I think you're right. It's really a shame.

I understand that there are people who will claim to have taught "math" to Little Johnny and Little Janey when they didn't. But testing is a cure for uncertainty over who really did the teaching and who didn't. But as you say, this approach creates problems for the credentialites.

My son needs challenge too. He is crying for that. He is first grade and refused to his weekly test last week. I said to him if you dont do your test, you will repeat the first grade. He said I dont want to do easy stuff. I tried to convinced him that there is no other way. He always plays during the lessons. His teacher told me he needs to go Pediatric neurologist. We found two,we are in a waiting list. In february we hope that we will find an open spot. The more he gets bored,the more He is getting used to do nothing in the classroom. I am scared that He will learn to do nothing:(( and becomes a lazzy person.

Just a couple thoughts...

1. does the private school offer scholarships, many do:-)
2. would the gifted program at your school really solve most of your problems? (maybe you are not missing much!)
3. maybe you can make contact with local homeschooling group/s and figure out how your DS might fit in, maybe that would might help your DH get his head around it.
4. is online school an option from your school district? (not sure if this is an improvement or not but worth investigating... no stone unturned!)

Best of luck.

Wow- thanks for all the thoughts, ideas, advice. Everyone's experience is different, and it is great to hear it all!

The private school was recommended by the tester and using a curriculum developed by the CFGE. It's 10 mins away. It does say there are a limited amount of financial aid- it's a new school. Yet, it feels right. One other thought about this school; I thought maybe we could use it as fall back if homeschool wasn't a good fit.



I could increase my work hours, but my husband travels. This would mean I would have to work all weekend- not great for family time or anytime with my husband. Neither dh or I really want to do this. (But I will if I have to.)

By socially, I meant making friendships with the other kids. Ds is a very social child, but is really struggling at school. Sure he talks to classmates, but is not "friends" with any of them. (We are working with a counselor to help him.)

I agree that this "gt" program is probably NOT enough, but I agreed if ds got in; we would try it until the end of the year.

As far as homeschool, to avoid feeling trapped in this district, I have been research all I can about homeschool in my area. There appears to be a great homeschool group in my town. We live in a metropolitan area, and there seems to be lots of resources. I really like the idea of the flexibility and ability to let ds explore other things once his assignment is completed. I also see him struggle with perfectionist qualities.

To look into the reintegration back into school and how that works is a good thought. Any thoughts about how to gain information about this without telling the district we want to homeschool?

MON-I am interested to hear your thoughts. I didn't get a chance to read your post before you deleted it.

Here where I live they do it like this...say you homeschool 9th grade with parent taught class and want to enroll tenth...they place the child in tenth grade English if at the end of the first 9 weeks the child is passing with a grade of (not sure if it is c or better or just passing with a d) the the 9th grade English class is placed on transcript. Obviously if you take the state virtual school online class for 9th grade English it just goes straight on your transcript (I assume there are several other online classes that are approved too.)

This would go for other classes too...Spanish, math, history, etc.

Oh to find this out here you google (name of district) pupil progression plan. Not sure if this term varies state by state but in FL that is the term to use...lengthy document but very interesting to read. Each district has to submit this document to the state.

This is exactly what is wrong with the modern education system (IMO) - since when would it be wrong to persue knowledge for the sake of learning something that interests you?

It's not education if the goal/outcome is solely test scores surely?

We need to give our children what they need so that they can thrive and be all they are capable of being. If that means creating a relaxed and happy environment at home and within the community where they can learn to their hearts' content and form meaningful relationships with other people in a variety of contexts then that's what you need to do. It makes sense to me on every level...

Even if the year doesn't work and your child goes back to school, what have you "lost"? even if your child needs to show mastery of whatever or re-do credits for whatever reason - you and they will have gained so much more than that one year of frustration and credits is worth.

We (our children) here on this board have the advantage here in that they are capable of catching whatever they missed faster - and even if they weren't, as I always say to parents would it be the end of the world if little junior finished school a year later - worst case scenario being that the etire year is a write off and absolutely nothing is learnt? (of course world-wide studies on homeschool show that this is not the case... but I digress)

Since the child is six there are surely less likely to be problems with accepting the home school year. If necessary they could do a trial in the appropriate year. If you accelerate a year or more there is likely to be a problem though and you may have trouble avoiding that.

What do you think the issue is here?

I have seen some cases where HSing has not benefited the child's social growth. Mind you, school probably was not benefiting it either, but I don't think it is necessarily a panacea, and I do think it can be a way to sort of avoid the problem. (No one throw things at me. I also know some HSed kids who are completely socially adept, of course.)

I already posted a cynical explanation of why they do this. But suppose they are acting in good faith and are reluctant to give credit because they want ensure that students properly learn the material. Is there documentation they will accept, for example a student notebook with completed assignments, supplemented by a proctored exam?

Nope. I tried that, both with his public school and DD's private school. They refuse to even consider anything that doesn't have an accredited stamp on it.

I ran I into a similar mindset problem when DS13 had skipped third grade. He wanted to do fifth grade science, and it wasn't allowed because the person running the school had decided that you couldn't possibly understand fifth grade science unless you had done everything in fourth grade science. The books all basically told the same story, but each grade level gave more detail and used more technical words. He just wanted to learn more details, but it was too bad.

Unfortunately, our education system in general just don't get it on many levels.

Melessa, this is a tough spot to be in. Facing adversity in a child's education can bring families together or tear them apart. You and your DH may want to sit down and map out each of the possible strategies you see before you, and brainstorm on pros, cons, and possible outcomes. You may already be doing this... but I will elaborate a bit because many families read these forums who do not post and therefore these ideas may be of benefit to others.

For example, one conversation starter may be diagramming options/outcomes such as:
1. Appeal & stay in public: pros/cons......... what might this lead to... best case scenario... worst case scenario.
2. Don't Appeal & stay in public: pros/cons.. what... best... worst.
3. Homeschool: pros/cons...................... what... best... worst.
4. Private gifted school: pros/cons............ what... best... worst.

Gather all the information you can, and plan to speak frequently about difficult choices and their ongoing impacts. Your family may find that you need to be a source of strength for each other, as each person may have different risk-tolerance and sensitivities in facing ongoing educational dilemmas/roadblocks.

As a family you may wish to discuss the options you are most comfortable with (those which help you feel most resilient versus stressed to the max and unable to handle the next curve ball life may toss at you). Determine which options will stay on the table for further discussion and consideration. Have you utilized the Davidson Guidebook resource: Advocating for Exceptionally Gifted Young People?

I second the suggestion made by another poster to contact a local homeschool group in your area and talk to those parents. See what their experiences have been if/when homeschooled children entered the local public school system at some point. Also, do local homeschool children participate in intramurals, community park and rec sports, or other events which might include kids from the public schools?

If you homeschooled for a bit and the local public school did not want to acknowledge your child's studies, might you have the opportunity at that point to enroll your child in the private gifted school? Would the private gifted school acknowledge home school learning? Would they administer placement tests or evaluate a portfolio? You may wish to tour the school, see if your son is interested in shadowing for a day, and apply for admissions, in order to learn more about the "fit" and how easy the school is to work with.

Here's hoping that facing this adversity together strengthens your family.

Val, this is especially chilling because, if I understand correctly from other posts on the forum, you may be more qualified to teach math than many/most licensed math teachers at accredited institutions?

Bostonian, I agree. Demonstrating knowledge by proficiency testing or essentially submitting a portfolio are respected and time-honored approaches. Given that Measures of Academic Progress (MAP) tests and other computer-adaptive tests are broadly in use by schools, some may say there is no legitimate reason or excuse for a receiving school to not provide an incoming student with some means of assessment, and place a student accordingly, regardless of prior learning environment. As an alternative to evaluating a portfolio or administering MAP tests or other computer-adaptive tests to determine placement, a school's end-of-term test for each subject could also be used for placement.

Refusing to accept a students' accumulated body of knowledge simply because the student's learning environment was not accredited may be a case where practices may work against educating minds for intellectual independence. Censorship, one-size-fits-all-education, and in some cases accreditation and credentialing may tend to discredit fabulous paths of self-education while acknowledging a potentially narrow or limited path of prescribed learning dictated by those in power and control.

There may be an emerging trend of schools wrestling power and control from parents. The larger the proportion of disengaged parents who are not supporting their child's education, the wider the door is opened for government schools to oversee and monitor parenting. Many districts offer parenting seminars, schools may record educational, demographic, and personal items into longitudinal data collection student information systems, and schools have the ability to monitor inside the home via school laptop video cam and microphone.

It is my understanding that to maintain any semblance of parental authority into the future, parents may need to keep an eye on legislation, and be willing to contact their State and Federal representatives. Ensuring and expanding parental rights, including the right to home school, is key.

Some have said this lock-step, one-size-fits-all approach is their primary concern with Common Core. A rigid, inflexible approach to placement and pacing lacks respect and sensitivity for intellectual diversity.

Yes.

This is the same kind of logic that our (virtual) school applies to these things.

We determined long ago that the best way to UN-do a gradeskip, in fact, was to homeschool for a year.


Of course, that would mean that the FIT would be worse after that year than it had been before it, because on an annual basis, my DD is learning far more homeschooling than she's EVER learned from them, but whatever...

they also only accept COLLEGE credits on an "individual" basis, and unlike "honors" or "AP" offerings at school-- no grade weighting for college classes (ever). When I complained that this seemed ludicrous to me, they "explained" that they haven't vetted those college classes for quality. No to AP credit for even top notch exam scores, too. NO, also, to CLEP credits.



And you'd better believe that my DH and I are WAY more qualified to be teaching STEM to our DD than any of the teachers she's had. The reason that she hasn't taken high school chemistry is that after witnessing the sheer incompetence of the instructor for biology (nominally the area of "expertise" vis a vis the teacher's college education) no way was I letting DD sign up for chemistry with that individual. I don't use the term incompetent lightly, but I use it quite freely there, and if pressed, I'd do so with administration, too. In fact, I have. My answer was to substitute a college class-- to which the school said "er... maybe... but it won't be weighted, and MAYBE we will have to call it independent study, not Chemistry." Outrageous.

I like to think I'm more qualified to teach math to my kids than the person who tells my two younger ones that "The sum of m and 9" is m+9 and NOT 9+m. Or that writing 1/4 = 0.25 is wrong because 0.25 = 0.25. But instead, I've been chastised for teaching them and undermining this great teacher's amazing pedagogy.

I also like to think that testing a kid is an obvious response to a parental claim, but I've been on this board long enough to know that resistance to it is ubiquitous. Many people on this forum have complained that early elementary teachers won't even test their kids to see if they really can read at the level mom and dad are claiming. I mean, how hard is it to hand a Magic Tree House book or whatever to a kindergartner and say, Okay, start reading?


Personally, I think that many of them are simply mediocre types who really don't have a clue and are acting as mediocre types tend to act.

I think you asked for others' experience up above - fwiw, when our ds was in 3rd grade we were in somewhat the same place (although we had a 2e issue thrown in the mix). Our ds was very unhappy at his school and the school was not offering help for his challenge and offering no differentiation at all. Our neuropsych recommended we switch to a local private school and my dh and I scoffed at that - no way did we want to spend the $, and ds didn't particularly want to switch. Fast forward 3 years, the situation at school was at that point beyond hopeless, ds was old enough that *he'd* checked out and was telling us he was not going back to the school he was in etc and that he had been bored beyond tears at school for years. This happened to coincide with an updated neuropsych eval before middle school, so once again we asked about school options, and once again the private school was recommended. This time we took a tour and ds was sold, so we readjusted our financial plans and out of desperation gave it a try. It was *the* single best educational decision we've ever made - ds was happy, ds was challenged, ds had intellectual peers in class... and most importantly, teachers listened to parents and didn't spend effort in being defensive or feeling challenged and fighting back. I can't tell you how many times I looked back and wished we'd switched back in 3rd grade when it was first suggested.

Will you have the same experience if you switch? I have no idea! But I think it's worth looking into, and as mentioned above, financial aid might be an option to make it more affordable. Our school has occasionally also offered incentives to bring in new students - this might be true of a new school also.

The reason I mention this isn't to say that a private school is a better solution, but to point out that the advice from your psych is most likely worth considering. Remember that he/she sees quite a few students (I'm guessing!) and that he/she most likely has a good overall knowledge of various pros and cons of the different schools in your area, as well as some knowledge of your child - so her advice is most likely worth listening to.



My ds was like this in elementary school also. Getting him out of the school he was in and into a more appropriately challenging school environment where he also felt at home and felt like his teachers cared about him totally turned his social situation around - he made friends quickly in his new school and no longer was a social "outsider".


I'm not sure I understand what's involved in appealing that is such a worry? What amount of effort did the neuropsych feel would be involved in an appeal? What cost? Why would you have to spend $ to appeal? I'm not asking to question, just curious.

polarbear

I'm so glad I've finally posted. It is sooo nice to bounce ideas off others who have or have had similar issues.

ultramarina- To be honest, I'm not sure of his issue at school making friends. I do know he feels different. However, outside of school, he is able to play with neighborhood kids. He is also active on swim team, cub scouts and does gymnastics. So, overall, socially, he interacts well with other kids- just not at school. Also, last year (or now when he realizes the situation isn't working with a kid) he starting acting super silly to try to get attention.

Indigo- we have not formally put in writing the pros and cons, but we have talked a lot. That may lead to more discussion. Also, I don't mind or take offense if someone offers advice I've done or have thought of- really it just gives me confidence that I'm doing the right thing.

Polarbear- Ds does have some vision and fine motor issues which the school is refusing to acknowledge too.

Thanks for sharing your experience. We probably should look at the school and see for ourselves and really ds if its as perfect as we imagine.

The tester said to appeal to the district, we should hire an advocate ($) to handle the process. Yet, she also shared with us that another family went this route, spent lots of money, won, but really burned a lot of bridges. They ended up pulling their dc after all that out of the system. She basically told us our district does not like to be challenged.

our district does not like to be challenged.


Red flag time.

If this is the case, then even if you win, you still lose. That's the way it works. {sigh}

Hk- that's what I'm worried about.

This.

It's open house season at private schools right now, so they may have one coming up this weekend or very soon. Check their website.

I advise preparing a list of questions before you go. For example, what's their policy regarding kids who are ahead of their classmates? If they have one, how do they figure out that kids are ahead, and how do they place them? If they tell you that their curriculum is advanced/a year ahead of public schools/etc., be careful. This could be their way of saying, "It's good enough." You're looking for signs of flexibility or lack thereof.

If you apply to the school and/or ask for acceleration, they may test your son. I strongly advise finding out what kind of material the test will cover beforehand (e.g. find out which math book they use, get a used copy on Amazon or borrow one, and make sure that your son has a good idea of what's in it). Different schools use different books, and most of them look down on the books used by other schools. This is particularly true of private schools.

I'm writing this because you don't want your son to do "poorly" on their test because they have a quirky way of doing a group of things that he could learn in an hour or less.

All that said, this will be less of an issue for a six-year-old. But it's still worth checking out.

Go visit the school.

My ds was subject accelerated in math and LA 2 years. So when 4th grade came around he had to stay in one class for the whole day. I bet this weighed on him a bit. They were suppose to supplement for math but it never happened. We did AoPS pre-algebra at home and had a tutor once or twice a week. Time went by, emotional discussions with the school were tabled at times.

We went to a math contest in the spring at a local private middle school and took along a bright girl that was in my sons 4th grade class. My ds placed 3rd in one of the events. The girl said "they sure do math differently here". We knew this was the place. HE knew this was the place. He was sad to leave his friends but said he knew it was where he should be. He also took the EXPLORE at this school so he knew what the deal was.

We toured the school and thought about it some more. We had some more useless meetings with the public school again which just confirmed everything. When the schools academic director calls our son and anomaly my wife lost it. She took it personally.

Fast forward and we are at the end of his 2nd trimester at the new school. There were a few bumps but it seems to be working just fine. He gets to hang out with some other math geeks. They seem to adjust to each kid. They are on the ball with 2e issues and perfectionism.

Sorry to ramble, I have been reading along and when polarbear posted I had to post our experience too. We sure didn't want to spend the money but didn't see any other options.

The public school wanted to skip 5th grade and send him to middle school.
We opted to not skip.

At that level schools can be very pedantic about drawing circles etc.

Just an update:
We visited the private school. It would be amazing for ds! Both dh and I really felt good about it! So, now we apply and hope and pray for the best!

Back up plan is homeschool, but I've done so much research and planning- thinking I'll atleast be able to use some of it as enrichment (if he gets in, which I don't see why he wouldn't).

Positive thoughts that we're on the right track though!

sounds positive! I really hope that it works out for you all

I will update what happened the last school year. DS7' teachers said that" He is amazingly smart but Because he refused to attend the school activities, I dont know how can I help him." we went two different nerological developmental pediatricians. The one of them found by school. We got two different diagnoses. The one said He is Asperger ,the other said He is totaly fine very bright boy. He just needs OCT. Summer time he got evaluated by district special needs evaluation team. I felt suffocated. The team made him take onother IQ test. They try to understand his school subjects level.OCT specialist,Gross motor specialist.....etc saw him. One more specialist to go and we will be done. During this evaluations I was with him all the time and something happened to amazed even me. Before the evaluation started, The specialist made DS7 to read 5 different paragrafs and after that she began the evaluation. About 2 hours later, At the end of the evaluation she read one sentence of the beginnin of the each five pharagrafs and DS7 said the rest of the five's correctly . I didn't even know that he can do this.
During last school year we tried to stop DS7 to learn more about the school subjects.We hoped that he will be less bored this way. we tried to focus DS7"s writing skills but nothing changed and He still learned this or that way science and more sciense. whenever he got bored we went walking, I tried to make more playdate,I signed up him for soccer.I couldt change his friends number.
Thats it I dont know what can I do more,so I am waiting to evaluation result now.

There is overlap between behaviors exhibited by gifted children and those which may be characteristic of some disorders. The book Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnoses may be helpful. Brief youtube video introduction to the book's concepts and contributors here and here. SENG article here.

OT, as in occupational therapy. There are many online articles to read about the benefits of occupational therapy and sensory integration for those on the ASD spectrum with Aspersers and high-functioning autism. Some examples are here and here.

You may wish to read all you can about Asperger's, Occupational Therapy, and Twice-exceptional (2e), including wrightslaw and From Emotions to Advocacy. You may wish to read the tips, advice, and BTDT experience on the 2e forum and post threads there for the best responses.

As noted in one of the links above, the exceptional memorization ability can be a sign that a child is on the ASD spectrum.

Having an accurate view of your child's strengths and areas in which he may benefit from support and accommodations will be helpful.

Thank you, One bye one I will check every links you sent me.