Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment High IQ, but average in math?

This might be a totally stupid question, but I'm not sure what to think about these test results. My daughter took the WPPPSI years ago & scored 147 FSIQ, and the psychologist said then that her IQ was higher than that but that she couldn't get my daughter to do any more questions. Now DD is 8 and just took the Cogat (98-99%ile in everything else) and got 75 %ile in math, which I totally agree with. She's had issues with math for years, still counts on her fingers to add, etc. But the teachers all say she's on grade level so she's fine. But DD knows she struggles with math, says she hates math, gets a headache when she has math homework, tries to avoid it, etc. So I feel like we need to do something but I'm not sure what. We're pursuing psychoeducational testing, but friends and family are saying that is wasting money, I'm worrying for nothing, etc. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I want my child to be happy and feel competent, so shouldn't I try to determine if she has a problem in math? Or is "average" in math OK for an otherwise highly gifted child?! Once the psychoed testing is done and we have recommendations I would get her a tutor, and people are saying that's a waste, etc. I don't want to be one of "those" moms, and maybe I'm seeing things this way because I've always been great at math? Thanks for your help/advice.

I'd say now is a good time to get involved, because you don't want a kiddo who decides they're not good at math, and holds herself back based on that, if there's no good reason. 75th percentile isn't average. It's above average... it's just not what you'd think a child with that IQ is capable of.

For what it's worth, my attitude was the same as hers in 2nd grade, not because I was no good at math, because it was all boring repetition, and I was prone to boneheaded mistakes. It went away when the math finally moved on from adding and subtracting increasingly larger sets of numbers.

Nowadays, elementary school math curriculum is a dog's breakfast of nonsense algorithms that only confuse and frustrate. Maybe some time at home drilling the standard algorithms will help.

My advice is to listen to your gut and do the psych ed testing (assuming that paying for the testing doesn't result in financial hardship).

Being "average" in math is fine for kids that are "average" or "a bit above average" in other things. I don't mean that in a tiger -mom kind of way but in a searching for clues kind of way if that makes any sense. We all aren't perfectly even in our abilities but having a large ability spread could be a sign of an LD which if that is the case I'd want to know about sooner than later. Many gifted kids can have undiagnosed LDs because they are able to fit into the "average" category despite the LD. It can be years before it becomes too much for their gifted side to compensate for.

My DS7 is 2e and getting tested was the BEST thing we could have done for him. His grades in school were average but that didn't fit with the extremely smart kid we saw at home. It was early on and we weren't really stressed but when his behaviour at school started to be an issue we tested. One of the biggest pluses from the testing is that DS now knows that certain things are hard for him but it isn't because he is "stupid" (as a 6 year old that was his only assumption). He was extremely frustrated by his challenges and having an explanation greatly increased his confidence, happiness and helped him deal with his frustrations in a more constructive manner.

Of course YMMV but I have no regrets. Having more info has helped us (and the school) help him in so many ways.

Oh wow, you're right. 75%ile isn't average, so maybe I have a bias starting out? I'm thinking that maybe we just need to figure out HOW to teach the basic math to her, and not that she has an actual disability, but really, what do I know?

Testing and tutoring to me aren't things that only anxiety-ridden parents do, though. To me, it's basic good parenting.

You are right to test: Your gut is telling you something is not right, and your child is expressing a negative physical and emotional response to her math. The answer could be anything from "it'll click eventually," to "she's right where she should be," to "she learns differently than her instruction assumes," to "she has a learning disability." You can't know under you have a full investigation into her achievement and how she learns. No matter what, I'd advise your tackle the negative associations to math and the physical responses directly. Does the teacher know about the headaches and that she "hates math"?

FWIW, my DD just went through remediation for dyslexia. She went from slightly below average to exactly where her verbal IQ would predict with a little bit of intervention (4 months of school services and then an awesome teacher). She advanced between 6 and 10 grade levels across most areas of writing and spelling in about a year. We wouldn't be here if it hadn't been for the neuropsych exam 2 years ago. We went into the testing because she was crying every night over writing and she performed below the level we (and she!) thought she could.

Don't know if this makes you feel better, but DD (same age as yours) scored something like 59th percentile on the Quant. section of the CogAT, but 99th+ in the computerized math achievement test done in school. She scored like an average 8th grader. So the CogAT is not necessarily indicative of anything. Do you have a score report? Look at the report and see if it says how many questions she answered. If she is still counting on her fingers to add, she probably ran out of time. You need to finish the CogAT in order to get a high score on it.
Second, have you worked on math fluency with her? Does she know addition/subtraction math facts? Does the school put kids on the computer and have them learn this? If she has not done this, then it makes sense that she is counting on her fingers. If a child is asked what is 7+5 that is something they should have memorized. So (unless you have tried this already) put her on the computer to learn her math facts. Or you can do flash cards, but that is more boring. My kids really like bigbrainz.com (it's like a video game) and it's free for addition/subtraction!
My DD has had a lot of trouble learning her math facts. The psych who assessed her said that it's probably because she's a visual-spatial learner (her non-verbal IQ is a lot higher than verbal) and slow-processor. i wouldn't worry about a disability unless you try teaching her the math facts and she can't learn them.
Does she understand concepts? Like word problems? Why things are calculated the way they are? If so, then that's another reason to not worry about a disability.

In my experience, if a child is slow (i.e. counts on their fingers, thinks deeply about a problem or tries to overanalyze a problem) they can take longer than their peers - and then, they cannot finish a test - my child writes slowly, so he could not finish one math problem and hence his scores dropped by 5% in an achievement test. He was frustrated when the scores came out because he knew that the drop in scores in math were because he could not finish the test. We don't worry because my child has known issues with writing and he is getting help for it.

I second blackcat's suggestion of using a computerized program like ixl, xtramath or bigbrainz and drill her on her math facts first. If after that, she still seems slow and hates math, definitely have her tested.

My son does great at math, but has problems with over-learning things. It could be that school gave her bad information at some point and 2+2 no longer quite equals 4 in her head. I'm not sure early math is all that relevant and perhaps worse than no math for a bright kid (when my son who was doing math by himself in his head, suddenly started counting on his fingers in first grade, I got worried.)

Maybe she needs a fresh perspective, search for Vi Hart videos. Or maybe try some higher level math concepts. However you approach it, I'd guess more of the same won't be the answer.

Hi cadysmom,

I am not sure if I'd pursue testing at this point in time or not - I'd have to know your dd to really have a gut feeling about that - but I have a few random thoughts for you.

First, as the parent of two 2e children, I'd say that the most important thing to do *always* is to listen to what your gut instincts about your child are telling you. If you have your dd tested and you find out everything is a-ok and you're worrying over nothing, that's *OK*. It's actually a good thing! You won't have to worry anymore, and you'll still most likely get some good info on her strengths and learning style and needs etc. If you find out she does have a problem, you will be forever thankful that you tested when you did and didn't wait another year or longer. If there *is* a challenge, it's not going to just disappear until someone recognizes it and puts together a plan to either remediate or accommodate. Try to ignore people who are questioning your instincts and just move forward.

And some thoughts before testing - can you tell us more about what exactly your dd doesn't like about math? And tell us about what "math" means in her class at school (it can really be all over the place in early elementary, from drilling math facts to creating word problems to working in groups and mapping the school or charting which months birthdays fall i etc). I have a dd who thinks she absolutely hates math and is convinced she can't "do it" and throws royal tantrums every time she has to tackle a new subject in math (I am not quite sure how I survived the learning how to add fractions with different denominators portion of her childhood lol!). She'd been through a neuropsych eval when she was 8 for other reasons (reading - turned out to be a vision issue) and I knew there were nothing in that eval that would indicate she had any issues with the skills needed for math. Yet she totally bombed (and I mean *bombed*) her first set of state math testing in 3rd grade. We signed her up for tutoring to get her caught up and she still struggled tremendously and told us over and over again how she wasn't good at math and hated it etc - just getting her to start a simple assignment for her tutoring was like climbing Mt. Everest. So.... eventually though... when she actually calmed down and tried the new concept, she got it. Not as lightning-fast as a math prodigy might, but she's actually very capable and good at math. She is not accelerated in math at school thanks to her total lack of self-confidence over it, but she also complains now (6th grade) about how danged boring math class is because she already knows everything. Complicated situation to be in - and it has nothing to do with math ability, it's all about fear of math. I've tutored high school and college students in math and saw a lot of the same type of issue - kids who *think* they aren't good at math and that thought builds into a type of I-hate-math that works against success at math. The thing that works in that type of situation sometimes (it works for my dd) is to just get them through a type of problem that's causing them issues and help them see that they *can* do it.

Counting on fingers - my kids all counted on their fingers until 3rd/4th grades. My ds didn't really have his math facts down quick until he was around 11 - yet he's an excellent math student, as is my 4th grader who is also still counting on her fingers. The rote quick math facts don't kick in early for a lot of kids, but it doesn't mean they aren't good at math. It *could* mean, however, that they aren't having much fun with math at school if that's what the focus is on. Just my experience, but I wouldn't push fast math facts at that age at home just to get them caught up - my 4th grader's 3rd grade teacher really pushed the quick math facts drills - she had daily timed facts tests at home and in school and by the end of the year she could write out multiplication math facts quicker than a lightning bolt - all of them up to 12. By the time summer was over and she was in 4th grade, she'd forgotten almost all of them. I'm not worried about it, because she's doing well in her math class (which is accelerated by one grade), and I feel the math facts quickness *will* happen when she's developmentally ready.

I also wouldn't put much thought into the CogAT scores - jmo, but I've found achievement tests and innate ability tests such as the WISC etc to be much more reliable indicators of where my children are at. The CogAT is a learned ability test and it's timed.

And one last thought - re tutoring - I wouldn't bother with it unless you have a recommendation for it that comes from the neuropsych testing. Your dd really is very young, and if she already doesn't like math, why put her in a situation where she's going to have to work on something she hates when it's not during the school day and it's not necessary? It's easy for us to get used to our intellectually gifted children working ahead of grade level, but working at grade level in math isn't going to forever stunt her academic growth, especially not at her age. It's just my gut instinct, but I wouldn't be surprised if you eased up on math expectations (unless your dd asks for extra help and tutoring) and let her just be for this year, in a few years she'll find her own inner drive and she'll still be able to jump ahead of grade level at that time if that's what she wants to do.

Best wishes,

polarbear

First, were the CogAT scores valid? That sounds like an "E" profile, which I seem to recall requires looking into some factors to verify whether the scores are even valid (I believe there is more information on this under "E" profiles on the CogAT website).

Also, CogAT is a bit of an odd test. As discussed in many other threads, it "misses" many of the high-scoring WISC/Wechsler children. It sounds like it "recognized" your DD's abilities in some areas, but showed you a rather uneven profile.

How does she do in math on other standardized achievement tests?

I don't think it hurts to do additional testing, but FWIW, DD8 had a lower CogAT Quantitative, also. DD has also professed to "hate" math since 2nd grade . Our school uses EM. She had a 99% Composite on the CogAT, a very high verbal, a high nonverbal, but a quantitative score in the low 90s percentile range (a "C" profile with Q-).

I DO think that my DD's CogAT scores reflected her "relative comfort" in verbal/nonverbal/quantitative areas.

DD's abbreviated Wechsler IQ was over the DYS minimum. We have not yet pursued further testing (I am not yet sure that we will). She has now been formally identified at school as "gifted," and recently started receiving services.

We live in an area with a high percentage of parents with graduate or professional degrees, and from what I've seen, a fairly high percentage of our area's children have academic strengths. DD has been in the high math group since they started differentiation in about 2nd grade. She always scores in the 98-99% on MAP math. I think PART of DD's issue with math is that she doesn't always feel like she "knows everything" or is "the best" at all that they do. Reading/language/verbal areas, on the other hand, have always been VERY easy for DD. With math, though, she needs to practice (for speed/automaticity in addition, subtraction, and multiplication) and it takes more EFFORT than some of the other academic areas. She surprised me recently by actually moving her Math MAP score over her Reading score - I NEVER thought THAT would happen, but she's been improving in math. Whether she likes it or not, she IS good at it (and she loves science, so I am thrilled to see this)! I think slowly (now in third grade), her confidence, and therefore, her attitude, about math is improving.

Although DD still doesn't love math, I think she is starting to resist it less.

I agree with you and other PP, that I would aim for your DD to be well above-average in math. Being "at grade-level" for your DD could mean she is actually underachieving - some teachers don't seem to "get" this and you may get strange looks if you try to explain this to them.

Wishing you and your DD all of the best!