Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Awaiting Second Opinion, Report Cards Out Today

Hi and Happy New Year, Everyone...

Well, what an ordeal this has been. I am awaiting DD11's THIRD formal test results.

First round of testing prompted by not being offered spot in kindergarten at private school. Results as follows:

WIPPSI III
Verbal IQ 135
Performance IQ 144
FSIQ 143

She was admitted to K, and I said a prayer of gratitude, thinking I was going to have an "easy", good student. Little did I know...

Academic difficulties began in 4th grade, which unfortunately coincided w a vary nasty divorce involving infidelity. I assumed her school problems stemmed from family changes.

She rec'd two full years of tutoring in fifth and sixth grade. Still barely making B's and C's with tutoring. I began to suspect dyslexia after a friend w dyslexic children told me that the kinds of problems I was describing sounded...dyslexic.
I noticed that would add, alter, or omit small words (like "the" , "but", "and", etc.). At the end of fifth grade, she spelled her name with a backwards, uncapitalized B. She failed to insert periods several time in one paragraph. Not a good speller. Quality of written output poor.

Took her to PsyD who administered WIPPSI. WISC IV Results as follows:

Verbal Comprehension Composite 124
Similarities 15
Vocab 14
Comprehension 13

Perceptual Reasoning Composite 127
Block Design 16
Pic Concepts 16
Matrix Reas. 11

Working Memory Composite 107
Digit Span 11
Letter-Num Seq 12

Processing Speed Composite 115
Coding 8
Symbol Search 17

FSIQ 125

Dyslexia ruled out, dx with ADD, inattentive type. We tried a med trial w no results and she hated how they made her feel.

So I poured over all these results, and was concerned that her Grey Oral reading Scores were "only" 50th percentile across the board. This really concerned me b/c I clearly remember always reading way above grade level.

Also of note: Beery Buktenica Results:

Beery VMI 19th percentile
Visual Perception 39th percentile
Motor Co-ordination <1 percentile

Highest and Lowest Scores on WCJ-III
Reading Fluency 92%
Calculation 19%
Spelling 33%
Writing Samples 31%
Story Recall 91%
All other scores in average range.

Report cards were issued today. She has an F in math (49%) and a C in English. B's in social studies and science.

So far, she has been punished, shamed, not allowed to participate in school play, pulled off basketball team yesterday by father. Labeled "lazy" by father, "careless, inattentive and disorganized" by school.

I have been watching this for three years now, and it is heartbreaking and frustrating. I remember at beginning of last year reading her "Hopes and Dreams" for that school year..."I want to make all A's so my parents will be proud of me."

So the intellect is there, the desire is there, and I see my child becoming frustrated, defeated, and just beginning not to care anymore. It looks like some learned helplessness.

Last week, without support of school or father, I took her to CA for testing by psy who specializes in 2E children. She underwent 11 hrs of testing. I am crossing my fingers that I will have some kind of answer, as I am at my wits end. The PsyD told me repeatedly that she was doing very well, and that her IQ score would be higher this time, as she hit a ceiling on one of the subtests.

I can honestly say that I see no other reason for her poor performance other than a Learning Disability.

Have any of you had a child with stealth dyslexia misdiagnosed with ADD?

Any advice on helping DD11 deal with the shame and embarrassment of this situation? She is at her Dad's this week, so I have not been able to really speak w her about being pulled off b-ball team, but I can imagine how she must feel about explaining her disappearance to team mates.

Dyslexia, ADD, underachievement, ARGH!!!

I know I'm just going to have to wait 5 more weeks for test results, but seeing her report card today drove me to this site. If anyone has ANY thoughts, advice, or encouragement, I certainly would appreciate it. This has been made doubly difficult by divorce and total lack of communication or support from her father.

I don't know what school is thinking, I know they strongly doubt dyslexia b/c the child *can* read. I think they suspect poor parenting! When I told them I was scheduling out of state testing, they informed me I couldn't pull her out of school for more that a two day period as that is all the parental excused absences they allow! WHAT? She's already failing math. Why, oh why, is no one looking at the big picture here?

OK, vent over know. Thanks for listening!

I am sorry, I don't have time to really think through everything above, but I see a few things that jump out. First, it sounds like you will have more good info to digest in a short period of time after the new 2e psych finishes testing - I hope it will help make sense out of the previous test results and what is happening with school. I am also guessing that at this point in your dd's life, she is old enough that *she* will be able to provide valuable input to the psych in evaluating her challenges.

Part of your dd's scores are red flags for either fine motor or visual-motor coordination challenges (the very low Veery BMI scores, the discrepancy in Beery subtest scores, and the low-average coding score on her WISC). My dysgraphic ds has a similar pattern with coding on the WISC and Beery VMI but without the low-average Beery visual component. I wonder if your dd doesn't have a combination of fine-motor *plus* vision challenge interacting. The fine motor might indicate dysgraphia which would potentially cause the letter reversals and issues with punctuation and spelling when writing.

On the WJ-III tests, it was very helpful to me - with all the scatter in my ds' scores - to group the subtests by response type (oral vs written vs written+timed). Once they were grouped together this way, the impact of his dysgraphia really showed clearly - he scored consistently at the level his WISC would indicate he should score on the oral response tests, but significantly lower on the tests that required handwritten responses and his scores dropped to the basement on timed tests requiring handwritten responses. You could see by graphing them this way that the achievement tests weren't really measuring his true "achievement" - they were measuring his ability to use handwriting.

FWIW, my dysgraphic ds is really good at math, but he gets tripped up frequently in calculating math problems because he flips #s around or copies things incorrectly etc while working a problem. My understanding is this is not unusual for either dysgraphic or dyslexic students. The solution for my ds has been to check and double-check all his work. The double-check step is necessary because he often accidentally miscalculates the second time through on a problem he had correct the first time around. It's really frustrating!

50th percentile on the Gray Oral Reading test is average and I wouldn't think it would send up any red flags for potential dyslexia. OTOH, are their discrepancies in the subtest scores? My dd9 has a reading challenge, and while the scores she receives on both the Gray and another reading eval test (which I can't remember the name of at the moment) come in at average, there are subtests on each where she scores way below average. Reading is made up of *so* many different types of skills - the eval my dd had from a reading specialist included several different tests each with multiple subtests, all evaluating different types of abilities that combine into a child's overall ability to read. If you still have doubts about your dd's reading ability after the 2e eval, I'd consider having her evaluated by a reading specialist (someone who specifically treats dyslexic students and children with other types of reading challenges).

I'm sorry you and your dd are also going through a tough time with her dad - having to deal with a potential undiagnosed LD at school is enough cause for anxiety all on it's own.

Hang in there - and I am wondering - do you think you'll really have to wait 5 weeks for the psych's results? Our neuropsych did give us the gist of feedback (in brief form verbally) at the conclusion of testing - so we had some things to go on and think about/research while waiting for the report.

The other thing you can do in the meantime is to read about the specific subtests and see what each tests. Also you could post if your dd has had any other type of reading evals other than Gray, or post her subtest scores - there may be some of us here who have some additional thoughts on the reading if we had a little bit more info on the tests she's had.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I hope you get the answers you need.

The only thing I want to add is of a personal nature. I wish my mother had been as diligent and aware as you. I was academically advanced all through school until I hit 7th grade and high school. Oh I was still in the college prep courses and still got As when I wanted to, but I started getting Bs and Cs for the first time and eventually everything fell apart and I began to get the occasional D. The shame I felt was intolerable but it was a cycle I'd gotten myself into and had no help or awareness how to get out. I have my suspicions, these many years later, as to what led to my underachievement, but man, I wish someone had not only intervened, but noticed. Brava to you. You are doing a wonderful job advocating for your dd.

Hugs. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Five weeks is a long time to wait for a report though is that really standard or is it a "within 5 weeks" to allow for problems?

One thing though. Read a chapter of something out loud - you may find you make changes and omissions too. I have found since I had kids that my reading often is not exact - sometimes when I make one mistake at the beginning of a sentence I change the rest to match even. If she is understanding and enjoying reading I really don't think missing the odd word at her age is that important. Adults don't sound out every word when they read and use a lot of contextural clues to make meaning.

Oh yes, she doesn't understand why she can't make good grades.

I asked her the other day if she was upset over her math grade, and she told me "No. I'm not upset at all". I asked her why, and she said "I try and try and I can't do any better so I'm not going to worry about it anymore." She is giving up.

One thing I am very grateful for: thank God this is 2014 and people know about 2E. I can't imagine children 50 years ago who endured a lifetime of not understanding the nature of their difficulties.

I will say that she seems extremely grateful for this last testing; I watched her seem to grow a few inches when the psyD spoke to me about how bright she was. She was just...giddy and happy and relieved.

I really don't think sometimes that adults really think about how these bright, underperforming children must feel...I compare it to getting up and going to work everyday and being told that you are not up to par, being written up over and over again, never getting a raise or any recognition, and you CAN'T QUIT. Sounds pretty miserable, doesn't it?

Her math teacher told me "she gets the concepts", yet repeatedly fails tests due to "careless" errors.

Between poor written output, spelling difficulties, subtle reading "glitches", and failing grade in math, I'm strongly leaning towards stealth dyslexia as opposed to ADD (esp since meds didn't help and first psyD told me "Ive seen kids go from C students to A students overnight with meds.")

To top it off, DD13 is A/B student invited to Davidson talent search.

So yeah, DD11's frustration and hopelessness is palpable.

And as all of you no doubt know, it is wearing us all out. But I cannot leave her in an environment where she just can't succeed.

The psyD told me she is suspicious of dyslexia, but she had a lot of data to look at (11 hours of testing).

Drs. Eide posted some IQ/achievement test score patterns typical of stealth dyslexics, and DD11 fit them perfectly.

Now it's just 5 weeks of waiting...

Bella, my kids were diagnosed at a younger age, but fwiw, my dysgraphic ds really began to be interested in a deeper way about the impact of his challenges when he was around 11 years old. When he was first diagnosed and for the next few years school was really a struggle. I did a lot of googling around and reading to find examples of people who had struggled with similar disabilities when they were students (many of whom were not diagnosed until they were adults, and many of whom struggled tremendously in school yet went on to be amazing success stories as adults - Charles Schwab is one example). I shared those stories with my ds. Things like that helped give him hope that life always wouldn't be the struggle that it was then at school. It also helped him to identify occasionally with specific challenges mentioned by each person.

Now that ds is further along in his journey (and also because he's older) he's begun to really think through how his disability impacts him personally and he's recognizing it in his schoolwork - when he was younger he didn't fully realize that those "careless" (ouch!) errors teachers thought he was making in his math calcs were really due to his dysgraphia; now he gets it and he deals with it. He's started to put together some of his own workflows and solutions. He can give input on which accommodations work for him and why, and which he prefers - sometimes for purely kid-reasons, such as not wanting to lug around a laptop because it weighs more than an iPad. He's also interested in how he's been tested, what the test results mean etc. He's at an age where ownership comes into play, and your dd is most likely there too - it sounds like she is. That's a great thing - keep listening to her as she gives you input and keep sharing what you find out with her.

Depending on what the psych finds, we (myself and others on this forum) may have some ideas about books/articles your dd might like to read to learn more about her challenges and other kids/adults who share similar challenges.

In the meantime, as mentioned above, you are giving your dd what will ultimately mean more than any of her accommodations - you believe in her and you're standing up for her. You're showing her (by example) how to advocate for herself, and you're showing her that you'll always be there for her. When you read some of those bios of adults who struggled with disabilities as children, you're going to hear one thing over and over again - having an adult in their life (either a parent or a teacher or whoever) who believed in them made all the difference in the world in getting through. There have been times when it's been beyond discouraging and frustrating to advocate advocate advocate and I've felt frustrated that I didn't realize what was up earlier in ds' life etc - it's easy to be discouraged or feel you haven't done enough as a parent. But you are doing exactly what your dd needs - and you'll make that difference for her.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - I don't know if this would help encourage your dd or not, but fwiw - I do not have any disabilities or challenges, but even as a totally typical kid, life was much more "fun" and interesting for me once I was out of the drudge of elementary and secondary school. I really appreciated going to college because I could focus on what I was passionate about and good at. Although I couldn't share any personal experiences with my kids about living with a disability, just sharing that life was a lot different once you graduated from high school really helped buoy up my ds' spirits when he was having tough times at school.

I'm curious about how you've handled her math struggles. Three years is a long time to be on a downward spiral. If I were you I'd be looking for a tutor. Regardless of whether she has a learning issue, she'll need help bringing those scores up. Maybe while you're waiting for test results you can find her a tutor or tutor center.

And I really feel for your daughter. One of my boys is 2E with dyslexia and I can't imagine how he would feel if he were shamed for his disability. Crushing. Hope you see your daughter soon and can give her the love and encouragement she needs.

I am no expert on medicaation for such issues, so, I will limit my comment to careless errors in math which I have a lifetime of experience with.
If careless errors are the cause of her failing in math tests, you need to address that regardless of what the psych test results bring forth. Don't pin all your hopes on medication alone to fix this - you need to address the issue and work on it with her as well.

I second what syolblrig said. Either get her a math tutor or if you can tutor her in math, get a strong curriculum and afterschool her. A fair amount of drilling in math basics is needed before a child develops automaticity in math operations to the extent of not making careless errors. You can get her to take a placement test in math to see where she is at. Sometimes, kids can get the concepts in math easily, but may need a lot of practice before they can uderstand how to apply those concepts to problem solving.
Good luck.

Master on None, Yes, you got it. Drilling isn't going to work. She has already rec'd two full years of tutoring.

She is in sixth grade, pre-algebra. Gets the concepts, doesn't execute on tests.

Quote from WISC IV report from 19 months ago: "She did not attend to the operation sign and also simply added or subtracted numbers incorrectly." She scored the highest on Applied Problems (still only 68%) but scored lowest on Calculation, 19%.

I'm assuming this is indicative of getting the big pic., but is not able to attend to the "simple" things, like signs and basic calculation.

She also had a difficult time memorizing her math facts (times tables).

DD11 was diagnosed dyslexic 2 years ago (4th grade) after falling apart in much the way you describe. She read at a post-high school level at the time. She was also struggling with "careless" errors in math to the point that she was risking being retained in math (err, rather, deaccelerated). We've traced that issue to a combination of attention (she scores just this side of not ADD) and a weak auditory memory (related to the dyslexia). A few accommodations, mostly focused on reducing the copying she must do, and some training on cross checking have helped. She remains inconsistent, and errors like you describe still occur -- bad for one test, gone the next -- but her abilities now come through more clearly.

Good luck getting guidance and answers from the testing.