Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy IEP meeting at school -- must vent!

DS9, grade 3, at a local "A" grade elem school. Today, I participated in his IEP meeting for his occupational therapy for fine motor skills, motor planning, etc.

As background, he got a letter home this spring that he was not meeting grade level standards for punctuation, spelling, and capitalization in his writing. Even though he has horrible handwriting, and struggles over every word, they had basically done nothing other than have him write to determine whether he knew caps/punc/spelling. Couldn't they think of another method for assessing him on this knowledge without making him handwrite? Couldn't they think of another way of teaching this skill other than the Teacher's College writer's workshop model?
I'm thinking of all of those old multiple choice drills in the grammar textbooks of my youth.

Based on advice from here, it seems appropriate to ask the school to include teaching keyboarding in his IEP and to provide alternative methods of teaching and testing punc/cap/spelling. (He actually spells very well on plain old spelling tests, where he just has to write one word at a time.) So, I asked for it at the meeting. The school psychologist said "this is the OT IEP, and we can't include that here." and "That sort of thing with the classroom teacher never goes in the IEP." and "You need to request an evaluation for assistive technology and you can do that next year." and "Why don't you try teaching this at home?"

When I got emotional about it (I cried, unfortunately, when I got to the point of discussing the effect of horrible handwriting in those 4th grade state exams, whose scores are used for middle school entrance requirements, so I just seemed hysterical about middle school admissions) , the school psychologist said that perhaps I should stop trying to "perfect my child" and just let him be. I said, I'm not trying to insist on perfection from my child, I'm trying to help him. I am insisting that you do a better job. That's my role as a parent, to ask for everything my child needs, and to demand and be insistent. I\'m not asking more of HIM, I'm asking more of YOU. He is struggling with this one aspect of school, to the point he is not meeting grade level standards and he needs help. Merely talking about what he needs will not be enough to keep the classroom teacher on track next year and without accountability, none of this will happen. If nothing is set in stone, then all plans about accommodation will just fall by the wayside when the teacher is confronting a huge class of students. My tone of voice was mmm adamant, let's say. And I really said all of the above. It may have been perceived as a rant.

The psych also asked questions like "What do you want him to be?" that I think were totally an effort to sidetrack me and make it appear as though I was unhappy with him and feeling the need to mould him in some way. My answer "Happy with who he is and what he is doing!"

The participants at today's IEP all assured me that DS was going to do just great, because he wouldn't need good handwriting to take the NYC specialized high schools entrance exam! (What about developing a capacity to express his thoughts on paper? That seems important, too?)

As an added bonus, before this year's teacher left the IEP conference (before the fireworks), he said that DS has some strengths and weaknesses. He is an advanced reader and above-level in math, but.... has only a superficial level of understanding of "these physics text books he's picked up." It was a college text book that DS was taking to and from school to learn how nuclear reactors work, what the theory of relativity was about, etc. I think he gleaned a lot from it, but certainly not enough to pass that Physics 101 exam. His teacher was so right! And so totally irrelevant to whether or not he needs additional OT services or keyboarding.

(He got an adjustment in OT, but no keyboarding and no info on IEP on classroom accommodations or strategies. Is it really true this can't go on an IEP, or can't go on an OT IEP?

I think the teacher's comment is just setting the ground for the next meeting with the same set of people, plus the principal, when we consider a grade skip for math. I can see it now: "He's bright enough, but he has only a surface-level understanding of that college physics text."

I've tried to be rational and cool, and crying just did not help DS's case.

On the bright side, his OT is fabulous and really gets him, his frustration with his inability to express himself in writing, his perfectionism, etc. She was great at the meeting, but just looked around awkwardly when I cried. She deferred to the school psych's judgment that keyboarding/in-class modifications didn't go on the IEP.

Everyone at the meeting was different from the first. The school has a new psych, new OT, new special ed teacher.

I already had an idea that the new psych was not very truthful. Another mom told me that her son at the school, with significant reading delays, was evaluated at the mom's request. At the IEP meeting for her son, they determined no services were necessary, no learning disability was found, and told her that the Dept of Ed had a policy of not disclosing achievement test and IQ scores to parents because it was counterproductive! This is NOT true. I got all of DS's test scores last year, and if you test for G&T this year, you are sent your child's results. She also asked what steps she should take if she andher dh decided they weren't happy with this decision. Not a single person on the IEP team could tell her what her next steps were. (Yeah, right, I'm sure they have NOOO idea!)

I mean to vent, and instead I'm asking questions and just generally rambling.

Anyway, can you give me reassurance that I didn't come across as psycho crying mom? Or if I did, how to overcome or take full advantage of my new rep?

bk

You need a psych to counter their psych. Your psych needs to recommend the accommodations/modifications your DS needs. I believe they have to consider outside evaluations. And you are definitely right about parents being able to receive scores, that is what FERPA is all about.

Don't beat yourself up about crying. I don't think it made any difference. If anything, it shows that you are a conscientious mom who cares about her son. <<hugs>> I've done the same thing, and we still got things worked out with the school.

If they pull that "stop trying to perfect him" cr@p again, point out that they are the ones who say he isn't meeting grade level standards! Are they saying that you should just give up on him? You are trying to offer ways to remedy that problem...what are they doing? The same old thing that didn't teach him to punctuate last year?

As for what can be on an IEP, it can pretty much be whatever the child needs--I've never heard of any such restrictions. An IEP doesn't have to be restricted to OT. In fact, it shouldn't be.

Try to ignore the digs about the physics book. Their tactic there is to lower your expectations of him (and by extension, them.)

I know how hard this is! My kids don't have IEPs but we had a heck of a time getting the 504 plans.

I agreed with Cathy�s well considered points! I am curious as to whether they have to consider outside testing. In my daughter�s case, we had two more highly credentialed experts (as compared to the school psych) whose evaluations were in disagreement with the school team. They just ignored it. Three years later, we had a very comprehensive assessment which likewise completely disputed the school�s position. I�d bet that it wouldn�t have been factored either.

I�m so sorry that this meeting went the way it did.

We also had some pretty significant frustrations several years ago when my daughter attended public school. Our school service psychologist and speech therapist, in particular, acted as if the notion that a gifted child could also have a learning disability was contradictory. I couldn�t decide whether they were stupid or unscrupulous. Our daughter�s written evaluation contained many references to our �dissatisfaction� with her performance, which actually didn�t make a bit of sense as she earned over 100% (extra credit) in every subject.

We got the same line from my son�s principle this past year when we elevated an outrageous action taken by a teacher. The principle lived up to a well known reputation for failure to address parents� concerns by insinuating that we were complaining because we were disappointed in our son (as opposed to his performance). I actually felt physically ill for several weeks due to his inept response.

Between our local public system and our singular Catholic school there were seemingly no other options available. As is often the case with opportunities, they came all at once, and after quite an absence. Just this spring, we received various offers from other schools outside of our immediate township to accommodate our son. We accepted one which will require a huge commitment of my time and gas money while also limiting my part time career opportunities. Other than the distance and accompanying issues, I believe it will be a great fit for ds.

While I was in your shoes over the last five years, a few people assured me that we would find a way eventually. At the time, I believed they were giving me vacuous assurance, but it seems they may have been right.

Keep your head up and stick to your guns. I wish you the best.

Well, they can ignore the outside evaluation but it must be entered into the record if you present it. Then the hearing officer would have to consider it if you go to due process.

If you see yourself headed that way, it may be something to consider.

oh big huge hugs BK1. They are playing with your mind, hoping you'll go away.

I read of some test where it assess punctuation etc by asking DC to fix what's wrong in a sentence. That would seem a much better test for a child w/ writing issues.

BK, I really feel for you. Looks like the school is tryign to change the focus from your son to you- so they won't have anything to do but say, "tsk, tsk you're putting too much pressure on him."

BK - i'm sorry you had to endure that awful meeting. I haven't had to deal with the school system yet (DS is 4), but I am sending you e-hugs. What unreasonable people. Either they are purposely trying to manipulate you or they really just don't get it.

I'm so sorry BK. They sound quite unreasonable. The point that they are the ones saying your DS is behind grade level is a great one.

And I really don't get what they're trying to say that your DS only has superficial understanding of a college level physics book? How many 9 year olds could pick up a college level physics book and figure out anything on their own? I would completely ignore that comment.

Hi bk1 -- sorry about the frustration. Can you talk to the assistive technology person directly? Many kids that i have worked with have benefited enormously from Co-Writer and Write Out Loud. They are most often used for LD kids but could and do benefit certain 2E kids,

And how would they know? Do they have more than a superficial understanding of physics themselves?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one, Cathy!

LMAO! No kidding! I took college level physics. There were plenty of college age kids (approaching half the class at my university) that never gained a superficial understanding at all and failed out. Conceptual understanding or just plain "getting it" is huge IMHO.

Yes, judging from my inability to answer DS's physics questions, I think I only developed a "superficial understanding" of my -high school- physics book.

Thanks everybody for your support. I think you've helped me get my confidence back! It was also really interesting to hear how many of you had similar experiences.

DH says I probably helped my cause by crying and talking back. He thinks now they are probably going to try to prevent any more outbursts. I figure they will just try more mind games.

I have a meeting with the principal (and the folks from the IEP team) next Thursday to discuss the math skip. Next year's teacher is also supposed to be there, but who knows if the principal will actually invite her or disclose who next year's teacher will be. Continually scheduling yet more meetings may be her way of letting the clock run out without doing anything I'm asking for.

When I first broached the math-skip idea with the principal, I mentioned the IAS and she said let's take a look at it, knowing it would take about a week to get delivered. When I brought it in, I explained the process and she asked to borrow the book and to have some time to look at it.

After a week or so, I called back to ask if we could start the testing called for in the IAS. She said she hadn't read the IAS yet. She said she wanted to use an on-line test developed for assessment in NYC that did not stop at grade level, and test him in both language arts and math. That was at least a week ago and DS hasn't been tested yet. School ends in a week and a half.

I feel compelled to keep trying at this school because we waited to long to easily move to something else.

We started panicking about school too late to apply to a private school for next year. The regular G&T program in our NYC district is no great shakes.

Because of rather fuzzy admissions standards in years past, 40 percent of students in elementary G&T classes across the city are at the 80th percentile or lower in IQ (or so the Ed Dept said when it decided to standardize the process this year and make the admissions criteria 90 percentile on a weighted combination of the BRSA and OLSAT for children going into K-2.)

For children currently in grades 3 and 4 applying to G&T programs, the new policy is apply to G&T in general (no specific school) and if spots open up, applicants will be placed in schools based on their scores on the 3rd grade, NCLB tests, with the top scorers getting priority in placement. Parents will be informed of G&T placement in August. Of course, the watered down NCLB test covers what are essentially second-grade skills, so there isn't enough challenge at the top to really separate out the MG, HG, etc. As a result, this policy won't actually mean that the HG children with the greatest need for G&T will actually get placed in G&T.

So, we will pursue a good IEP and math-skip for the local school for next year, also apply for G&T for next year, too, just in case, and if nothing works out, in the fall of this year we will also apply to a local private school for gifted kids for Fall of '09.

OK, I've rambled again. I thought the G&T criteria might be good for discussion, and I'm hoping the play-by-play of what's happened for us might be helpful to others. And I got to vent again!

bk

Bk, I hope the math skip meeting goes well. I recently read "Developing Math Talent." It has some good suggestions for accommodating kids with math talent.

I skimmed that at Barnes and Noble on a couple of lunch hours, and I should definitely get a copy and dig in.

bk1 (now I've got Burger King in my mind!!LOL!!!), I am so sorry for your frustrating day. I understand the crying at the meeting. I cried right after my DS's IEP meeting too. The frustration of it all can just be too much and you just need an outlet for all those feelings. They played the same sort of mind games on me and it was just awful.

I'm glad you've got your confidence back and that you have a plan for the future. Just having a plan can make you feel so much better!!! I hope things goes well in the math skip meeting.

I agree with gratified3 about the tears. Remember Hillary in the New Hampshire primary? A few tears got her a long way, at least in NH!

Raises Hand and admits to tears in the school meetings at times as well

Yeah, me too-- both as a parent and as a teacher!

I've had that experience also. It seems that no blow is too low when dealing with a parent.
Treat yourself as if you actually have a cold, and give lots of extra TLC, ok?



I think that they need you to sign the IEP, and that if you put in writing that parts that you don't agree with, it will help move things along. If possible, I would try to set up a private meeting with the Priniciple in advance of the big meeting - I cryed there, and it really helped.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Just to update you:

I wrote a letter to the principal regarding the horrid IEP meeting. We wound up having to postpone our meeting to discuss math grade skip until the day before school let out (work schedule problems on my end).

To summarize, she really managed to talk a lot without saying much or promising anything, other than she'll try to place DS9 in a class with a teacher who gets him, and she'll let him take a computer-based math test next fall that goes above grade level to see what his needs are.

Also, she claimed she hadn't been able to finish reading my letter about the IEP meeting. I summarized that I was asking for classroom modifications for DS9 and she said that seemed reasonable. I stated that I had not yet seen the new IEP, hoped it would include those modifications, and that if it did not, I would be pursuing an appeal via the Board of Education.

My husband was so disheartened to hear about the total lack of progress on math acceleration, that he suggested we move to Pennsylvania (I told him about the GIEP mandate there.)

bk

I'm so sorry!!! I'm glad you told her you were going to be pursuing the appeal. I bet that will make her get on the ball with the modifications. Hopefully you'll hear some good news soon!!!

Thanks! I feel like we probably will get some of what DS needs in the IEP-- and absolutely hopeless about math grade skip/enrichment.

Maybe things will go better at the beginning of next year when everyone is rested.

Sorry about the continuing stress and aggravation. I've definitely BTDT.

OH I"m sorry the meeting didn't go better. I hope the Principal reflects on it those and moves forward with getting his needs met.

((bug eyes))
well there's a new one!

Online Math can be good, I guess. I'm hoping the above level test goes well. I'd be tempted to hothouse Math over the summer purely out of spite!

((shrugs)) and More ((shrugs))
Grinity

Thanks for the warning, Dottie! Name now removed.

I wish DS was amenable to math instruction outside of school. He thinks he is not good at math (it's a relative weakness in his test scores, but he is still "gifted" in math and met the criteria for a grade skip on the IAS, from my calculations) so he does not want to do it unless he has to do it for school, AND he complains that it is incredibly slow-moving and dull at school.

It is. The state NCLB tests are so dumbed down, 3rd grade math tests essentially only cover what should be second grade math material. Guess what? The 3rd grade teachers only bothered covering 2nd grade math material before the NCLB test in March. Since 3rd grade students do better with 2nd grade material, state scores are going up!

Yes bk1, I read that our state tests cover the 2nd half of 2nd grade and the 1st of 3rd grade .... well, normally most of the 1st half of any school year is review of the previous year!

Bk1 - I would try some living math books, perhaps an older math student-mentor that he connects with to try and turn around his thoughts on math. I wonder if there is something to what i read online that gifted students retain less when the material moves too slow. Perhaps that is why he thinks he is not good at math. I know I've seen this with my own son. After a disastrous K year and son hating math, a teacher friend suggested I teach math at home. I started him in RightStart. He soared. Then school started again and it was hit or miss depending on homework. I noticed we got bogged down. RS expects students to make leaps in thought periodically and he wasn't making those. I realized it was because we were moving too slowly. Once we made math a priority and was doing it everyday again, he was back up to speed, making those leaps, and retaining what he was learning.

bk1, I have had only a few meetings with teachers, never yet with the principal. But even in those few meetings I have always felt pushy, too sure of my ds's abilities although they might not fit in any well definied category. You're right, pushing for your kids is what we parents are supposed to do.
We just worked our way through phase 1 of having my son evaluated for giftedness by the public school system here and it really was work. The initial evaluation stated that scores were great, reading levels were great, but they were going to collect more information over the course of 3 months to make a final determination on his eligibility. I basically dug through all the last 6 years worth of drawings and projects from my ds and found what I felt was a large but worthy stack of items to bring in...and bring in and bring in. I went back to the teacher collecting these samples over and over to present items. Some she would take, some not. DS would bring home things graded by his regular teacher (who was supposed to be passing these on to the gifted teacher) and I would send them right back to the g.teacher!
After the evaluation concluded, the gifted teacher called to let me know the (good) results and was quite emphatic in thanking me for sending in all the examples, implying that it really made the difference.
Now my sister, dd's in the same county, is going through the same trial, I have told her to keep pushing and that it seems like the schools won't accept a child into one of these programs without some blood from the parents! Some proof that they are really really committed to their kids success. Or should be committed
So, let the tears flow and when the school pushes away, push right back!