Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Allow DS to move forward or try to hold him back?

I am trying to figure out what is best for DS but it's rather complicated because we need to consider the whole picture including future considerations. DS10 is taking Algebra I this year at his elementary school via the district-selected online curriculum provider along with a once-a-week live teacher evaluator. Part of the problem may be that I held DS back from proceeding to Algebra I last school year when he was clearly ready. Even though the curriculum is supposed to be Honors Algebra I, DS is whipping through the material at a faster timeline than even the accelerated pace (16 weeks), much less the regular pace (32 weeks). This is the case even though there are scheduling/timing obstacles slowing him down and he is only spending about 70% of the designated math period on the online curriculum and I am not enforcing math homework time.

My concerns/issues are the following:

I am somewhat troubled about not having him do "math homework" when all his 5th grade classmates as well as middle school algebra students have to spend time doing math homework.

He probably won't be able to take the standardized state algebra test until May.

If he finishes the course too fast, what is he going to do the rest of the year?

Even if he won't be twiddling his thumb and the school district moves him to the next course (Algebra II), that would push the timeline forward to Calculus in 8th grade. In that case, he won't get to participate in a "real" math classroom at all during middle school.

It also seem to me that part of the problem is that this is an online math course, which in general are easier to speed through. I am a bit prejudiced but it also seem to me that with the exception of AOPS, none of the online math courses that I have looked at are as vigorous compared to our GT textbook/curriculum.

There is also a concern in the back of my mind that whipping through a course "too fast" will result in less deep/profound/permanent subject mastery.

I am also mindful that everyone hits a wall at some point. If I allow DS to accelerate too much, he might hit his wall -- be it geometry or trigonometry or pre-calculus or calculus or differential equations -- at a time when he would be less able to handle it.

Sometimes I am inclined to allow him to move forward if his teacher isn't concerned about slowing him down. Then again, I am not sure how to artificially slow him down in a way that makes sense except reminding him everyday to go slower and perhaps insist that his teacher make him do more problems by hand in addition to the "essay" problems/solutions that he type online.

Sorry this is sort of rambling as I am still trying to sort through my thoughts.

Here's an idea (one that we've used in order to keep DD more or less in synch with what the school thinks that pacing ought to be, anyway):

can you have him do math at his preferred rate, but only have him work on it for one or two days each week?

I used to worry about the effect of not doing a lot of practice problems, but the bottom line is that DD really doesn't need to. I mean, she knows HOW to-- and does do so fairly graciously (at 14yo) when she encounters something that she needs to dust off or has more difficulty mastering. So a couple of practice problems with the concept, an assessment, and she's got it.

I've never tried to control her innate learning pace, per se. I tend to think that is a losing battle. If I force her to work at a pace that is too far out of her comfort zone, then she goes into refusal and underachievement.

If you were to restrict math to a day or two a week, and then maybe introduce competitions math or something else to "fill" the other blocks, would that work?

I hear you about group instruction. This is something that my DD has found very disheartening about online math.

Things maybe to think abot:

How passionate is he about math?

Does he do his own practice/math experiments to cement his learning or his he just burning through multiple choice and short answer problems?

Future considerations aren't just coursework, but also about maintaining a passion if it exists.

We'll be facing a similar question, and I have no intention of getting between DS and his passion. But he doesn't have to follow the linear path schools imagine for math.

Push come to shove, find sideways material that he digs. Maybe like number theory, statistics, topology, operations research, other discrete maths, etc. I can imagine someone motivated spending a semester just exploring proofs relating to primes.

The problem with doing it for one or two days a week (versus the 3 1/2 days currently) is that he would have to fill the other days with something else online that the school would have to approve and that he can handle completely independently like the Algebra course. As things stand now, he might well end up doing something like that if/when he finishes the course too early. I like the idea of competition math but again something would have to be arranged as there is always a lot of red tape.

I am with you regarding the practice problems although DS already does a lot more than he needs to due to having to kill time while waiting around for discussion assessments and permission to take unit assessments or to move on in certain cases.

Online math is kind of lonely, particularly if you like the peer interaction.

That is the million dollar question. I don't think he is really passionate about math. There are too many other subjects that fascinate him. However, in the past he has come up with some profound mathematical patterns/insights that surprised me and impressed his pre-algebra teacher. We do have a kind of odd situation here as he is very much a "verbal" kid rather than a true "mathy" kid but I only chose to accelerate him in math because I could clearly see the damage in not accelerating in math whereas it was not particularly harmful to not accelerate him in reading/language arts because that curriculum is all about writing, which is completely open-ended and he is free to and certainly does read whatever level he wants outside of the two-hour reading/language arts block.

It's difficult for me to know what he is thinking/doing to cement his knowledge/skill but the online course does require more than multiple choice and short answer problems. For example, he is called upon to summarize/verbalize all the concepts in the curriculum. I am totally in agreement about the sideways approach. DS has done a fair amount of reading adult level math books (not textbooks) touching a broad range of topics. However, his greatest weakness is the inability to take things slow, which is sometimes necessary for deep understanding/mastery.

Perhaps the biggest question is what the school district has as a plan for those students who finish the available course work it offers in HS. Believe it or not I've heard a math teacher say, "We can't put him in AP Calc. at his age, we'll run out of math!"

Does your school district give HS credit for those not in HS that take classes typically attended by HS students?

What about geometry? Could he take an online course for that, maybe another two days a week? It's nice to have it concurrently with algebra.

4 years of math is required but Algebra I counts even though more than half the kids take Algebra I by 8th grade.

I think that he does like to learn with the other kids even though that involves him tuning out for a good portion of class. On the other hand, he does like to speed through things as well so that is the upside of the online course.

It is hard to say whether he loves it enough for it to have a career component. The reason for the first two accelerations beyond the built-in GT acceleration was to avoid killing the spark/passion.

I like the sideways idea but I think a lot of the cool applications require a higher level of math knowledge than Algebra I. Computer programming may be a possibility to occupy his time if he finishes the course too fast.

Just out of curiosity, what would have been the normal sequence for your DD? The sequences that I am used to seeing are:

Year 1: Algebra I
Year 2: Algebra II
Year 3: Geometry/Trigonometry
Year 4 (1st half): Pre-calculus
Year 4 (2nd half): Calculus AB
Year 5: Calculus BC


Year 1: Algebra I
Year 2: Algebra II
Year 3: Geometry
Year 4: Trigonometry and Pre-calculus
Year 5: Calculus AB + BC

This issue doesn't come up in high school because the whole class covers the subject at the same pace. The district elected the one-day a week live teacher plus online course for DS but I don't know how often the issue would have come up in the past. Although I am in a large district (over 100,000 students), there are many years when the district does not have a fifth grader taking Algebra I although it is my understanding that this year there is one other fifth-grade student within our district.

I don't think he will run out of math courses because after Calculus, he can take Linear Algebra, Statistics, Differential Equations at the high school plus he can dual enroll in college for more courses. Our district is very generous with high school credits. DS may potentially get 4 math credits (Alg. I, Alg. II, Geometry, Pre-calculus) and 3 science credits (env. science, earth/space science, biology) prior to high school.

I agree with you. However, our GT math sequence has Geometry following Algebra II. The Geometry actually applies the Algebra and I think the Trigonometry may be at the end of Geometry as well. Of couse, with the current momentous changes to Common Core, it is difficult to say what the sequence may look like for sure.

Good question-- also-- does your state/school district SPECIFY particular math coursework for a high school diploma?

Ours does. Even if yours doesn't, I'd have this convo with someone specifically, because if it CHANGES before your child is assigned a high school cohort year, then they may all be in a position where the only reasonable solution is for the student to retake the course. ( )

So regardless of other grade placement, DD9 had to get credit for Algebra I as a high school course... or... she'd get to take it again IN high school.

DD is also not an especially mathy kid. I'd call her natural skill set "verbal" in fact. She took a year off of school mathematics when she was 13. The other things that we've done with her include peer tutoring math, which I highly recommend for kids who are both prosocial and interactively driven. It was very helpful in terms of refreshing all that earlier math that she needed to be sharp on for the SAT/ACT, too.

It was not my intention to imply that language arts do not require acceleration ever. Clearly, your DD really wanted it and should have had it. My point was that for DS, he did so much reading (up to adult level) outside of the two-hour reading/language arts block (and actually also during his free-time within the two-hour reading/language arts block), that it really wasn't a great hardship to read only slightly accelerated but interest-level appropriate literature during that time slot. There is a huge emphasis on literary analysis and have been since first grade. The writing was open-ended enough for him because even though he writes well, he is not PG-level writing-wise. Part of it is personality and perhaps maturity as well. Even my DD, who is a prolific writer and artist, doesn't want formal instructions in those domains.

How about each time he completes the regular online course, follow it up with the corresponding AOPS course.

That is a good question and the answer may well change with implementation of common core. Thankfully, more than half the student body takes Algebra before high school and the district has routinely provided high school credit. In addition, there is the state proficiency test for Algebra so it would look foolish indeed for any insistence on repeating the course.

AOPS is great, but unfortunately it requires "class-time" at night, which would be punishing, particularly during the school year.

I just had a big crisis along these lines when I realized my previous plan of just having DD work ahead as much as she wanted might end up in her repeating a bunch of stuff. I had optimistically thought that we would be able to get her into a school where they would let us do independent study, but I'm now starting to believe that will not be the case and she will be expected to lock-step with the standard curriculum (so even having to re-do pre-algebra before she even gets back to repeating algebra). A local education expert advised that I call the math departments of the schools we were thinking about for middle school to ask them whether acceleration/ independent study were acceptable, because as he pointed out you can probably take their word for what they will do. Excellent idea, I thought--only flaw is they're not calling me back. Did I just become one of 'those parents' by politely asking the question? Heaven forbid. I'm choosing to assume that if DD gets into their school they might return my call, but maybe they won't. And for the private schools there's a test ($) and a length application and an application fee ($$)--so it would be nice to know what to expect before we go through all that.

I am going to think hard about this too and probably try to refocus on the parallel route--we just started AoPS and Alcumus and DD loves it. She's working on Intro to Probability and Counting independently at her current school and I may try to look for another parallel outside thing to work on at home rather than continuing with the AoPS algebra--but it is very disappointing to basically be holding her back. Hopefully though she won't lose her love of math by having to do things this way.

And just as an aside--we only do math at home when she doesn't have another afterschool activity; this works for now because she doesn't have homework. I suppose things will slow down even more once she starts getting homework, but as long as she's happy and learning *something* I guess that's enough.

Just a thought. You may never get a reliable answer from the middle school even if they call you back. For us, the approval had to come from the District office (both the GT office and office of Mathematics). Of course, the school has to be willing to cooperate as well. The private school may be a bit easier if you can talk to current parents to see whether their kids have noticed any accelerated students.