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DeeDee
What about this scenario - my DS7 is often a loner but can also be exceptionally social, especially with adults. In school he likes to play by himself during recess because he wants a break from people and kids to enjoy what's in his head. When he does play, even with gifted age mates, he wants to play his imaginary games, and tends to not want to do what others what because "it's not as good as mine". But with older kids, is more than happy to play their games, to do give and take, in short to play appropriately

How do you tell the difference between not being interested in playing things that don't fully engage him and that being an actual problem? Is it being able to play normally when choosing to?

I was worried about DS until I went on a field trip. He doesn't have "best friends" he never wanted play dates but then i saw that he is liked and engages appropriately. I think he finds the play of his age mates, again even in his gifted school, to get boring over time. So then he opts out. But is that really a problem - I guess what I am asking - is how do you know when it's an issue?

DeHe

I have wondered about aspergers before, even more so when she was younger. She seemed to grow out of many of her quirks/concerning behaviors. Since finding out she was HG I then just chalked it up to her LOG. Also, her WISC results are the opposite of what I have read are typical for aspergers. Her VCI was 124 and PRI was 151.

So I'm still torn as to what is the real issue. She is definitely different than the average kid, question is what is the reason.

Curious, do girls with aspergers do better one on one with kids vs. a group of kids? We just had a play date yesterday at the park with a 10 year old gifted girl and she did great. I think if she is playing one on one she does much better. This is something her pre-k teacher noticed about her when she was 3/4 years old. She avoided groups of kids. Another thing the pre-k brought to my attention at that age is she didn't like to be touched. At home, however, with me she has always been affectionate.

DeHe - doing well socially with adults but not so much with children can be a red flag too, any social skill deficits in the child are propped up by adults' greater skills (and greater tolerance). It certainly was in our family. Or even being more likely to play with older or younger children, same thing - older children's skills will prop up the situation, younger children may look up to the older child or just be a better match socially.

BUT as I said my 2nd child will opt out of play she's not interested in and we have concluded that she's absolutely not on the spectrum. Watching her play with a child who is a good match for her they will play freely, fluidly and flexibly with neither child constantly dominant or leading the play and she's capable of doing this for hours or even days. But a kid she's not that into playing something she's not that into? "Oh look there might be lizards under those rocks..." and she's gone. Yes she will pick and choose, but she is fully capable of following someone else's lead, and playing in a truly equal and interactive way. Unsurprisingly the kids who are a good match for her are age mates, or close to age mates who I either know to be gifted or who I place bets are gifted.

MountainMom - having read your other thread I want to really strongly encourage you to find someone who is an expert in girls who are gifted and "quirky" I really do think there is something going on with your DD, but it should be a professional, not the internets who help you figure out what that something is. I highly recommend books like "Aspergirls" and "Girls Under the Umbrella" though.

A checklist is far from definitive but these lists were helpful to me in deciding to pursue professional help:

http://suelarkey.com.au/media/Tip_Sheet_-_Girls_with_an_ASD.pdf

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/wp_a58d4f6a.html

http://aspergersgirls.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/aspergers-traits-women-females-girls/

Hi DeHe--


As Mum3 notes, doing better with adults than peers is sometimes a flag. My DS11 would, from a young age, converse nicely with adults--because he was essentially pumping them for information (which he would then happily categorize/ systematize). Peers were not that much fun for him because he had poor play skills and they didn't have the information he craved. (He also lectured peers on scientific topics. Possibly still would if they tolerated it.)

The loner thing is also complex. Despite his autism, DS11 is a fairly gregarious person: he likes sharing jokes, likes having friends, tries hard to do it right. He just makes *tons* of social mistakes and seems wildly immature for his age. He did, it's true, spend a good amount of time walking circles around the playground by himself in early elementary because he couldn't figure out how to join the other kids' games; but by late elementary he was out playing soccer and football etc. with the other kids. That's not the usual image of autism, but it's true for him.


And you know, that was ME as a kid. I always took a book to recess and never played with anyone. I don't think I'm on the spectrum, but I was absolutely a very late bloomer socially, and I'm probably not far from the spectrum. As in, some of my social skills showed up when I was in my late 20s and 30s.


To what extent are the older kids humoring him and being flexible? Adults and older kids often will do this for a younger, interesting, and enthusiastic kid-- they flex more so the kid doesn't have to flex as much.


I can say that my DS11 had virtually no play skills. He lined up toys, wrote and drew almost compulsively, and read voraciously but did not do imaginary play or use toys; we had to teach him to do that. He now likes acting-- but it was a process to get him there, and he is still impatient with other people's fantasy games.

I think being able to play normally some of the time is pretty important in distinguishing. Remember, my experience is basically one kid, DS11, but I would say that a kid with Asperger's will often say avoiding others' activities is a choice or preference where it's really a lack of skills.


My younger DS is more like this--choosy but able to engage with peers in jointly conceived play. And he is able to articulate how others are thinking and feeling, and account for that by changing his own behavior. These are things my elder DS could not have done at that age. I don't think little DS is on the spectrum.

It seems important to me that you see things like the field trip-- that he is able to engage, that it's reciprocal conversation, that he is able to be "in the mix" at least some of the time.

I will also say that if there are other exceptionalities, even things like motor planning problems, it gets even harder to distinguish what normal vs. spectrumy social skills look like, and that having a professional give the ADOS or another standardized measure can be helpful in isolating the specific social skills.

Does that help?

DeeDee

DeeDee
Your wisdom always helps!! I think I am so obsessive about his social life because he was so unhappy in preK. But I think I get trapped by the not wanting to use his giftedness as an answer for everything but at the time it clearly was the issue. But I think because of it he withdrew a bit from peers. With his writing issues, we let him play to his strengths and didn't realize until later that allowing to read and avoid play doh or other types of play involving fine motor stunted him a little.

DS likes adults and the attention they give him - but for his ideas - not necessarily for their information - he wants the audience and also the conversational partner - and often to hear about his crazy ideas, so not necessarily a lecturer like your DS but can be as limiting. Although he can pull the let me amaze you with my knowledge card. The avoidance due to lack of skills masked by choice is interesting because I see that with physical things - not interested in baseball because the hand eye coordination is so rough for him. But he owns that. But on the social side he can absolutely play normally and sometimes will do it for extended periods - when engaged - but he is most engaged when he gets to set up what they are doing.

Mum - I think DS sounds a lot like your daughter! But he is more sneaky about getting away, often helping the other kid find something else to do!

He recently spent time with a group of kids 14, 12, 10 and 9 and DS is 7. The 14 year old clearly got into it for him, would never have played that way on his own. But definitely raised the quality of play and refused to be managed and in fact did a lot of managing and DS was fine with it. The play with the 10 and 9 year old was what was so interesting. They are bright but not like DS and it was fascinating to watch DS rein in know it all behavior, and actually got into more physical play. I was really pleased to see him stand up for himself and hold his own. And he remained engaged - not disappearing to go read or anything.

I think what it comes down to - the struggle - is to accept at face value he doesn't want more play dates because he sees the kids all day long, or to essentially make him have play dates because it would be "good" for him to do so. I don't want him to struggle because we missed something at this stage like we did with the dysgraphia- esque stuff.

Thank you so much for bearing with me - and sorry mm for hijacking!

DeHe

The thing is-- this is absolutely normal HG introvert behavior, too.


(I realize this doesn't help you tease things apart.)

My DD definitely has a preference for one-on-one activities with others, but HAS the skills necessary to interact with a large group. If you list her quirks, she sounds absolutely Aspie. But she's not-- you can tell within seconds of meeting her. Those quirks make her highly Aspie-compatible, however. Many of her closest friends over the years have been on the spectrum. That might be an idea for you, actually. If your DD (or you) know any families with Aspies at similar academic functional levels, you could try setting up a casual social encounter and see how things go.

Does your daughter have a hobby she enjoys? My son is not much older than yours, and he has repeatedly told me he doesn't fit in with the kids at school, and he has wanted to homeschool since kindergarten. Now, his situation is slightly different because thus far there has been no bullying. He gets along ok with the kids at school, but he really has no interest in socializing with them outside of school, and he's fine being the kid on the periphery at school.

However, he has found 2-3 kids with whom he has gotten quite close, and he found them through outside interests (an individual sport). At least locally, the kids who play individual sports like tennis, golf, swimming, and martial arts seem to be much more like my son. Perhaps not all of them are "gifted", but then I don't technically know that my son is either. But they *tend* to be readers, play chess, like legos and board games, etc., and thus my son has found a few kindred souls.

If you haven't introduced her to an individual sport, you might try one. Tennis has the Quickstart program these days which makes it much more accessible to younger kids, most medium sized towns seem to have swimming leagues nowadays, though of course your options depend on location.

If she truly seems to be ok with the situation, you might believe her (and maintain a watchful eye). Some people prefer quality of friends over large social circles, and your daughter may be one. Good luck and I hope the bullying can be remedied.



On edit- After reading some of your additional posts, I agree with at least keeping the spectrum issues in mind. We've never had him tested, but I do think my son is very, very, very mildly an Aspie or on the spectrum. He likes things to be ordered and tidy, he has little patience for those who don't understand things as quickly/easily as he does, and he wants things done a certain way. While I think that has played some role in his friendship issues, I really think for him it has been more of a combination of finding kids with similar interests and his introversion. You just never know with these kids!